Naitonalized Healthcare...

Random Ramblings
181

You are right, there are many ways they could have more money but you could tell them until you are blue in the face and they won’t do it. I also agree that they spend money frivolously. I love to hear how nice of a time they just had at Myrtle Beach when I come to collect the rent that they don’t have. Or see the Rent A Center 50" plasma tv but couldn’t afford to buy their baby formula and that is why they couldn’t come up with the rent.

They seem to be over leveraged more than any class of people when comparing the $250 a week that they net compared to what they owe.

Some of them are a more responsible than others. The ones that are still end up going to the hospital for a fever or a couple of stitches and a sprained arm they think is broken instead of the doctor because they know the doc is going to make them pay a couple hundred dollars before they leave and the hospital will bill them a few thousand that they won’t pay. Many of them visit the hospital at least 2 or 3 times a year or more.

In all honesty, if they were able to save $1,000 in a years time from being frugal, it wouldn’t make a dent in the hospital bills they have racked up. This is why I am for low cost clinics for these people to go to. Possibly run by nurses who have been given that software program that has been proven to be more effective than a doctor when the symptoms are input via questions that are conveyed for the nurse to ask. I also think that with this software’s recommendation of treatment, they should be able to prescribe the meds needed. NO doctor involvement.

Doc’s don’t need to treat the sniffles or stitch someone up. Many if not all of the general practitioner functions could adequately be handled by a nurse. We just need to break the back of the illegal AMA monopoly and force them to change their regulations which require that the docs control practically every aspect of someones health. They loosened some with nurse practitioners but not near enough.

182

Shouldn’t get into this again, but…

Pos.Outlook, another wacky do-gooder response from you. Maybe you need your own TV show on how people can save money when they don’t have any.

Hooch, why do you think that illegals don’t pay any taxes? If they are working, they are paying taxes just like everyone else. Taxes are withheld from their paychecks like everyone else. The problem illegals have is that they can be here working all their lives and paying taxes, but they will NEVER be able to apply for the social security that they have paid into for years.

If you want to live in a police state, then yes, mandate the Border Patrol to pick up people as they come out the ER door. But whoops, what if YOU forget your ID? Speaking English is no proof of nationality. People from all over can speak English now. Let’s be careful what we ask for. Our freedoms are precious.

Furnishedowner

183

I agree our freedoms are precious.But the way things are now,once anyone crosses the border alot’s “free” for them.Do you think this is’nt what attracts them by the tons?The system needs to be more streamlined to help them get legal.I still can’t believe that “illegal” and they’re rights are so confusing to some.And that social security statement did’nt bother me a bit,since my generation has paid into it too and won’t get a dime.S.S. won’t be around too much longer,especially at the rate they blow money.

184

Furnishedowner…

“Pos.Outlook, another wacky do-gooder response from you. Maybe you need your own TV show on how people can save money when they don’t have any.”

No, Furnishedowner, if you had a “friend” really in the situation you were refering to, and you do not even WANT to give them the OPTION of talking to someone who CAN help them, and let them decide for themself, what does that say about you? This has been the case in ALL the “friends” you post about on healthcare… I offer a hand of help, and you slap it back

“I have a friend who needs a diagnostic medical procedure. Her doctor has highly recommended it. She has insurance. The insurance doesn’t cover the $2,000 co-pay. She is not getting the procedure. She is hoping the condition isn’t cancer after all. She doesn’t have the money.”

Now, if he/she FOOLISHLY does this (doesn’t do everything she can to GET the procedure), when she has OPTIONS open to her that you are now aware of, and she DOES end up with cancer, you will then feel NO OBLIGATION to this when you KNEW IN ADVANCE that she could have had options to explore?..

I would rather be labeled a “wacky do-gooder” than a “bystander” who lets her friends suffer when she KNOWS of avenues of help anyday of the week… I mean, really, what “friend” does that? Just sits back and watches them suffer and does not at the very LEAST, give them the OPTION of talking to somone who may be able to help them… Why don’t YOU lend her the money, and let her work it off cleaning your units so she doesn’t feel bad? Or better yet, GIVE HER THE MONEY and you can write it off… You OWN real estate and are OK with spending other people’s money for everyone else, but you aren’t willing to even help your “friend”?.. I mean I don’t even know this person, and I am willing to help, and this is your friend and your not? ugh…

As a point of example and for no other reason… We GAVE a friend of ours over four-figures in one lump sum last year because she needed help… And I know if the situation were reversed, she would have done the same… Friends and family HELP each other… I tell my kids, if you can help, you help, if you can’t, you can’t, but in this case, like the others you posted, you know YOU CAN help…

I don’t believe there really is a “friend”, which is why you slap the hand back that is trying to help, but if there is, you absolutely should have him/her contact ME… But for now, I’ll give you the benefit of doubt that there is actually a “friend”… Tell you what, let us know WHAT medical procedure you are talking about, the state he/she lives in, and the insurance she has, WITHOUT his/her name so the information is generic… Otherwise, we have no reason to believe that this an actual “friend” at all, but a made-up story… There are OPTIONS beyond his/her insurance…

“Hooch, why do you think that illegals don’t pay any taxes? If they are working, they are paying taxes just like everyone else. Taxes are withheld from their paychecks like everyone else.”

What are you talking about? Illegal aliens pay taxes? The ONLY tax they pay is SALES TAX, which is one of the arguments FOR a flat tax, as it will get access to all the black market AND illegal immigrant money… If employers are collecting payroll taxes from illegals, they have NO WHERE to apply it, as they do not have a social security number, and if they are keeping this money, they are GUILTY of tax fraud…

“The problem illegals have is that they can be here working all their lives and paying taxes, but they will NEVER be able to apply for the social security that they have paid into for years.”

They do not get social security, because they DO NOT pay into it and ARE NOT citizens… The overwhelming majority of illegal here are from south of the border, and they send the MAJORITY of their money BACK to their country of origin, as it worth ALOT more (although less nowadays thanks to Obama and the Fed), so we don’t even get access to that money…

185

Pos.Outlook,
Look, people have their privacy! And why would I make up non-existent friends?! I DO have friends. Real friends. Really. Maybe you are surprised because you don’t?

But I am not going to probe too deeply about somebody’s personal body issues unless they want to tell me. I shared that story because it is an example of our broken healthcare insurance system. I sat down with my friend and encouraged her to appeal the insurance decision, ask for a discount from the doctor, confirm the ceiling on copays, etc. She is working on the problem. And it’s HER problem, not mine, and not yours. I will give appropriate help if needed, but that won’t be a referral to you. You can give to the Red Cross or your local charities. They need you.

selnbama,
Finally we can agree on something:
“The system needs to be more streamlined to help illegals get legal” !

Illegals don’t come here because stuff is free. They come because there is no social welfare system in Mexico, and if the kids are crying with hunger there may be jobs in El Norte.
The illegals I know, and I know a bunch from having lived for years in border states, are all hard-working and honest people. They can work circles around your average blue-blooded American unemployed person.

They do work many jobs that require social security numbers, and get taxes withheld. They take the tough, nasty jobs, like painting aircraft and working in the chicken-gutting factories, and slaughterhouses.
How they do this I don’t know. But I know that a little thing like a non-existent social security number is not going to stop a hungry person from working.

I’m not saying that’s right, I’m just saying that it happens. We need a guest worker program, like in Europe (1 person out of 4 in Switzerland is a guest worker). Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are the big wheel that helps turn the economy. They WORK.

Furnishedowner

186

“Look, people have their privacy! And why would I make up non-existent friends?!”

You would not be the first liberal to make up a “friend” to try to make their point… If she is real, as her friend, you should be willing to do anything to help her, INCLUDING giving HER the option of exploring other options that you may not be aware of… which is WHY I suggest you have her contact me…

“I DO have friends. Real friends. Really.”

I’m sure you do, most people do, but in the examples of the “friends” you put up in this discussion of nationalized healtcare, you offered them no CONCRETE help whatsoever, just words… I don’t know them, and I am willing to ACTUALLY HELP THEM… but YOU don’t want to even give them the OPTION of making that decision FOR THEMSELVES… It’s a little cliche’ but if this is how you treat your friends, I’d hate to be your enemy…

“Maybe you are surprised because you don’t?”

LOL… I don’t??? No, Furnishedowner, the defference between me and you is that when I CAN help, I do… even IF I don’t know you… which is why I offer… You slap back that hand BECAUSE it is obvious that you only want to “think” you are helping by telling her the obvious (i.e. - appeals, discount from the doctor, ceiling on copays, etc.), but when it comes to actually providing CONCRETE help, you are no where to be found for any of the “friends” you list, other than words…

Have you considered that maybe she CONFIDED in you her problem BECAUSE she knew you owned real estate and your own business and might be in a position to help her… yes, people like their privacy, and most decent people are prideful when it comes to money and won’t come-out and actually ask you for help… Imagine how hollow that must have been for her to hear your version of “help”…

While I agree it is HER problem, so is it the problem of other Americans who have trouble affording healthcare, but you are ready to commit OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY to that, but not offer your “friend” help??? How is this in any way consistent??? I mean, you can offer her assitance that helps BOTH of you… If you don’t want to let her make the decision whether she wants my help or not, then put your money where your mouth is and front her the money for the procedure, and have her work it off cleaning your units or doing WHATEVER… worst case, you can write it off… You will find when you are 80 years old, you’ll feel better about having helped than not…

As I have said, liberals are very good at spending OTHER people’s money, but when it comes to their own, hands off…

“I will give appropriate help if needed, but that won’t be a referral to you.”

WHY??? If you are going to withhold an avenue of help for her, IMHO, you now have a MORAL obligation to help her financially… It is obviously “needed”, so give the “appropriate help”…

“You can give to the Red Cross or your local charities.”

I do and have worked with my local charities, which is WHY I may know avenues that you may not be aware of, which is WHY I told you to give HER the “choice” of whether she wants to contact me… My guess is, if this friend is actually real, you would be embarrased that someone SHE DOESN’T KNOW would offer to help, but you are not even WILLING to give her that option, MAKING THE DECISION FOR HER… because next to your version of “help” it would make your’s lacking… this would involve putting your pride aside…

“But I am not going to probe too deeply about somebody’s personal body issues unless they want to tell me.”

This strains credibility… she did not tell you what the procedure was? Obviously she did… and you know what state she lives in, and when she was complaining about her insurance company, and your subsequant conversation since yesterday about it, the name of the insurance company didn’t come up? Providing none of this information affects her privacy in ANY WAY…

Look, Furnishedowner, I don’t know you personally and I’m sure you are a nice person IRL, but what really tests what someone believes is if they are willing to do that which they expouse for others… If YOU want others to pay for people they don’t even know on nationalized healthcare, then you should be WILLING to do the same for people you DO know… otherwise, what do you really believe?

187

“The illegals I know, and I know a bunch from having lived for years in border states, are all hard-working and honest people. They can work circles around your average blue-blooded American unemployed person.”

I can attest that this is true… the next question you have to ask is WHY??? It was not always this way… it was not until they started sucking on the government nipple, and having it become part of the culture that they became less self-sufficient and this was transformed… Like you said, the illegals don’t have the services back home, so they MAXIMIZE their work ethic working here and sendi the money back home where OTHER governments benefit from our labor and goods/services… Guess the ANSWER is LESS government services, and making people more self-reliant…

"They do work many jobs that require social security numbers and get taxes withheld. "

If they have a social security number, they either have it illegally using a dead persons ID or someone elses or are a citizen… If they are using a dead persons ID, or one that does not belong to them, they will NOT get any credit for it, nor should they because they are breaking the law, but the companies employing them are playing quite the risky game of tax fraud…

Think about this, the government with all our computer technology cannot tell if someone’s social security record (which are tied directly to birth and death certificates), if dead, is being used??? Or that contributions are coming from more than one area of the country for the same social security number???

“They take the tough, nasty jobs, like painting aircraft and working in the chicken-gutting factories, and slaughterhouses.”

Yes and no on this… I know many Americans who work in construction, garbage-haulers, plumbers, electricians, sewers, manufacturing factories, the “nasty” list goes on… With regards to the farming industry, I think you have a better argument…

“How they do this I don’t know. But I know that a little thing like a non-existent social security number is not going to stop a hungry person from working.”

I say we should streamline the process and invite as many immigrants to our country as we can feasibly process… Other than that… WAIT IN LINE like all the others who did it LEGALLY otherwise it dimishes the sacrifice THEY made to become a citizen… the countries they are migrating from REQUIRE THE SAME… if you are here illegally, IMHO, you get one mulligan to have the process explained to you and start the paperwork… if they do NOT follow-through and are picked-up… DEPORT THEM as they did not put the same work ethic they have for working here illegally into becoming a citizen…

The MORE you pay a price for something, the MORE you appreicate it… the opposite is also true…

If we aren’t SERIOUS about legal immigration, OF COURSE people are going to skirt the system…

“We need a guest worker program, like in Europe (1 person out of 4 in Switzerland is a guest worker). Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are the big wheel that helps turn the economy.”

Here, I diagree… because when people work here, our economy should he the beneficiary… Because ALOT of the money goes back to their native country, because it is worth more, others have to pay more taxes because this money is not being used in our economy… yes, the ones here on work visa’s pay income taxes, but the money does not go to goods and services, and sales tax, that benefit our economy and help support jobs HERE… They pack as many people into a house/apartment as possible to SAVE money to send back home… If it is so bad at home, why not just become a citizen and stay here???

We are not a one-world government, yet… so until we are, guest worker programs cost us jobs AND money…

188

The net cost to the federal government in 2002 for public services provided to illegal aliens was $10.4 billion or $2,736 per household according to a report by the Center for Immigration Studies. Estimates for 2005 put the amount at $11.7 billion or $3,080 per household.

TODAY it is reported illegal alien migration into the United States costs American taxpayers $346 billion annually reported by the National Research Council.

The U.S. may be foregoing up to $35 billion in lost tax revenue because of the growing size of the underground labor market using illegal workers in the cash economy, according to a January, 2005 report by the Wall Street firm Bear Sterns.

Medicaid costs for illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children are $2.8 billion annually, according to a study by the Center for Immigration Studies.

The federal government spends $250 million each year reimbursing states for emergency medical services provided to illegal aliens, which is less than 10% of the true cost of those services.

The Center for Immigration Studies has shown that federal aid to K-12 public schools for the education of the children of illegal aliens is $1.4 billion annually, not including the cost of free school lunches.

The total cost to state and local taxpayers for educating 3.5 million children of illegal aliens is estimated at $28.6 billion, according to a Federation for American Immigration Reform study.

Illegal aliens account for less than 5% of the U.S. adult population, but were 17% of the federal prison population in 2004, imposing a net cost of $1.8 billion in court and incarceration expenses.

They are sucking the life out of this country with the present tax system in place. The Fair Tax is needed right away to get them on board and paying for these services they use.

189

Hooch, I agree that we need to fix the illegal immigration problem. Make it fair for the workers and the taxpayer. I had big hopes from Pres. Bush on that issue. He was the border state governor who wanted immigration change and promised that. Nothing happened.

Pos. Outlook, Many illegals have been ripped off by unscrupulous “Immigration Legal Help” offices. They charge huge fees, hold out hope, and then deliver nothing. The illegal has no recourse.

If we change the system, those people are going to need competent help and in Spanish, or translation. Many older workers are illiterate or close to it. They had no access to education in their youth. It’s a perfect setup for getting ripped off again. They may need more follow-through than your “one chance” change.

Immigrant workers do leave money in this country. They pay for housing, food, clothing, TV’s, everything. Yes, they also send money home. But the longer they stay here, the more Americanized they become. The more they spend.

Furnishedowner

190

Immigrant workers do leave money in this country. They pay for housing, food, clothing, TV’s, everything. Yes, they also send money home. But the longer they stay here, the more Americanized they become. The more they spend.

But the key to fixing the situation is making them pay taxes. They have to spend money when here but they ALSO need to pay taxes for the services they are sucking up.

The Fair Tax would immediately fix this. It would also make it so tourists contribute to our tax burden which will further lower our taxes.

191

Hooch,
What is the “Fair Tax”?

Furnishedowner

192

To put it simply, it is a sales tax and complete removal of the IRS and billions people pay in tax preparation every year. Each and every person would pay a higher sales tax so there is no dodging the system for anyone. Poor people don’t buy that much so they would have less of a tax burden. Wealthy pay more and have more of a tax burden. But if they wanted to reduce their taxes paid they don’t buy the extravagances. So you have control over how much tax you pay. If you live high on the hog you pay top dollar, if you don’t you can save it.

Each and every person in the United States would be contributing to the tax system if they like it or not. That includes tourists and illegals.

Federal income taxes would be completely abolished. This would include all ancillary taxes on personal income such as estate, gift, capital gains, alternative minimum, self-employment, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes.

The IRS would no longer be able to bully people.

The Fair Tax would be “progressive” in the sense that it would avoid taxing financially challenged (i.e., poor) people for basic necessities. This is accomplished by means of a “prebate”, which according to Fairtax.org would be $2,348 per year for a single person or $6,297 per year for a family of four.

The Fair Tax is calculated to be “revenue neutral”, meaning that all current government services would continue to be fully funded because the money that is raised from this national sales tax would be equal to the amount of revenue that is lost due to the repeal of federal income taxes. Programs such as Social Security, Medicare, etc. would be unaffected.

Since the Fair Tax only taxes consumption, it would not punish businesses for expanding and creating more jobs, investing in research and development, or donating to charity. Also, the individuals who create and maintain those businesses would have more disposable income to expand and compete in international markets.

The base price of goods and services (that is, their cost of production before adding any taxes, profits, etc.) would be lower because the embedded costs of the current income tax system would no longer be a factor. This would partially offset the increase in the total price of new products and services that would result from the Fair Tax.

Black market sales will end up getting taxed. If a drug dealer sells crack and goes out and buys a car they will now be contributing to the system as well.

A national sales tax such as this would be much more transparent than the current tax system. There would be no more loopholes, special exemptions, payroll taxes, embedded costs, or other factors that allow people under the current system to avoid realizing how much tax they are actually paying. With the amount of taxation clearly visible to the general public, people (hopefully) would be less likely to tolerate wasteful spending, corruption, and inefficiency in government, resulting in lower levels of taxation and a stronger economy overall.

etc.

Lots of good things. There would be bugs to work out but it is far better than our current tax system.

193

Yes, I like it! I know it as the VAT (Value-added Tax). Europe has had this structure for a while. They may have kept their income tax though as well.

When you buy a new refrigerator ($400), say, the tax would be added(say $78), on top of local and state sales tax? I would hope that also the re-cycle tax (disposal tax) would also be added so that refrigerator doesn’t end up in a landfill or a ditch.

This will inspire everyone to recycle more (buy used) as I don’t see how the used market could collect Fair Tax. New things will cost more. There will be more re-cycling and re-use of materials. Our consuming appetite will be tempered. I am less concerned with how this will affect the economy than I am concerned about us running out of resources just to make and sell junk.

Furnishedowner

194

Positive,

What are you talking about? Illegal aliens pay taxes? The ONLY tax they pay is SALES TAX, which is one of the arguments FOR a flat tax, as it will get access to all the black market AND illegal immigrant money… If employers are collecting payroll taxes from illegals, they have NO WHERE to apply it, as they do not have a social security number, and if they are keeping this money, they are GUILTY of tax fraud…

While SOME illegal aliens work under the table most of them SHARE a social security number with multiple other people. For example when I was in college I worked at a restaurant for several years. When they needed a new bus boy or prep guy it would always be a FRIEND of one of the current employees. One of the bussers they hired was called Raul, but we all knew what his real name was but he was Raul because that was the name that was on his SS card. The taxes that were collected from his paycheck were paid to the govt. just like mine were however “Raul” was never going to get any refund check back because he was not going to file a tax return. And if the SS card was real then the real Raul was not going to have copies of the W2’s from all the fake Rauls.

You would not be the first liberal to make up a “friend” to try to make their point… If she is real, as her friend, you should be willing to do anything to help her, INCLUDING giving HER the option of exploring other options that you may not be aware of… which is WHY I suggest you have her contact me…

For someone who guards their privacy so fiercely you sure are being very jovial about having furnished friend contact you. In fact it is so jovial it comes off as FAKE. Quit trying to pretend that you have an interest in helping his friend instead of trying to prove a point to a “liberal”.

The overwhelming majority of illegal here are from south of the border, and they send the MAJORITY of their money BACK to their country of origin, as it worth ALOT more (although less nowadays thanks to Obama and the Fed), so we don’t even get access to that money…

Perhaps you could quote your source for the “and they send the MAJORITY of their money BACK to their country of origin”. They are paying rent, they are eating breakfast,lunch, and dinner, they are paying for utilities, etc… I live in Texas and have worked with hispanics, done loans for hispanics, and have many friends that are hispanic and Ican tell you they are not sending huge amounts of money back to Mexico for the simple reason that they are not making that much. I think the bigger problem in this case is the “techies” here working for the technology companies from India and the middle east. Those guys are making real money and they are funneling it back to their home countries en masse. A good friend of mine’s father is a heart surgeon from Pakistan and he is raking it in (or at least he used to), and he sends a HUGE portion of his income back to Pakistan to take care of his parents and siblings. Once that money is out of this country who knows where it goes and what it is used for. Can you say TERRORISM! I am much more concerned about the five pakistani guys sharing one apartment and sending 10K a month to Pakistan than I am about 10 hispanics sharing a rent house and sending $1500 a month to Mexico.

I think there are a couple of other issues that are being ignored here as well. The influx of cheap labor from south of the border has helped keep the cost of some goods an services low. Do you know how expensive restaurants would be if they had to pay their back of the house employees wages that had gone up with inflation? If they were paying the prep guys $12.00 per hour do you know how expensive it would be to feed a family of four? It would really hurt small businesses.

The second thing is that nowadays their are some jobs that Americans just won’t do or feel that are beneath them. It is a sad unfortunate fact. If you have ever taken a cruise then you should know what I am talking about. The SERVICE staff on cruise ships are almost exclusively foreign workers and when I asked a couple of them why; this is what I heard EVERY SINGLE TIME. “Americans will not work these jobs”, “They don’t want to work seven days a week”, “They don’t want to be away from their families for months at a time”, “The pay is not high enough to attract americans”. The fact of the matter is we as a society have either gotten lazy, or we for some reason consider ourselves to good to work menial jobs anymore. It is to easy to just go on welfare and food stamps. Very sad.

195

New things will cost more.

Nope, as you know, companies do not pay taxes. The taxes are “built” into the cost of the goods or services. Only the end user pays taxes. The Fair Tax takes those taxes out of the cost of goods reducing their cost. The Fair Tax puts some back on but not as much is needed due to the fact that everyone is now contributing and tourists lessen the burden as well.

196

Christopher…

“While SOME illegal aliens work under the table most of them SHARE a social security number with multiple other people. For example when I was in college I worked at a restaurant for several years. When they needed a new bus boy or prep guy it would always be a FRIEND of one of the current employees. One of the bussers they hired was called Raul, but we all knew what his real name was but he was Raul because that was the name that was on his SS card. The taxes that were collected from his paycheck were paid to the govt. just like mine were however “Raul” was never going to get any refund check back because he was not going to file a tax return. And if the SS card was real then the real Raul was not going to have copies of the W2’s from all the fake Rauls.”

Whether they steal or they share someone else’s SS #, they are BREAKING THE LAW… Unless you were the bookkeeper for the restaurant, you are only ASSUMING the money was actually paid to the government… The restaurant would have opened themselves up to fraud charges if found out, so a more likely scenario is that they TOLD “Raul” that “taxes” were being taken out, but in reality, they were most likely keeping it… If “Raul” participated in the fraud of using someone else’s SS#, by ILLEGALLY using someone else’s SS#, he BROKE THE LAW, and should be deported… But as long as we continue to look the other way, the behavior (and illegal immigrants expectations) will remain the same and the problem will never go away…

If the government cannot even track these abuses with SS#'s, which is relatively simple in scope compared to other things, you want to give them the power to control nationalized healthcare???

[i]“For someone who guards their privacy so fiercely you sure are being very jovial about having furnished friend contact you. In fact it is so jovial it comes off as FAKE. Quit trying to pretend that you have an interest in helping his friend instead of trying to prove a point to a “liberal”.”
[/i]

Here you are COMPLETELY wrong… my offer to help, in every scenario Furnhishedowner presented, was sincere… the fact that Furnishedowner would not even give these “friends” the OPTION of contacting me, if THEY wanted to, instead of making the CHOICE for them, nor provide any meaningful CONCRETE support beyond words, lead me to believe the “friends” were fabrications just to make a point (I have had first hand experience with this exact scenario from people who mostly identify themselves as “liberal”)… My offer still stands, whether Christopher W “thinks” it is “jovial”, “fake” or not… :rolleyes

Now, I have to “qualify” whether me offering on multiple occasions to help someone is sincere… :banghead tell you what, when you step up and offer the same help, actually providing something CONCRETE, feel free to criticize me and/or my intentions… :bs

“Perhaps you could quote your source for the “and they send the MAJORITY of their money BACK to their country of origin”. They are paying rent, they are eating breakfast,lunch, and dinner, they are paying for utilities, etc…”

I’ve worked in the restaurant industry, technology industry, and construction industry, and I have had first hand experience with this from an employee, manager and employer perspective. They absolutely send money back home… whether it is a dishwasher, cook, a landscaper or painter, or a programmer for an IT company… Unless they are planning on setting up roots here and becoming a LEGAL immigrant, as most people who do rentals here can probably attest, the rent the illegal immigrants pay, which represents their largest expense, is minimized by sharing housing…

"Those guys are making real money and they are funneling it back to their home countries en masse. "

What is funny about this is that you challenge my assertion that they send money back home, and then say the same thing… So are you saying that it is only the “techies” who are sending money home “en masse”?

“Can you say TERRORISM! I am much more concerned about the five pakistani guys sharing one apartment and sending 10K a month to Pakistan than I am about 10 hispanics sharing a rent house and sending $1500 a month to Mexico.”

I could care less if they are hispanic, asian or indian… if they are sending the money back home, and it is not being taxed here and spent here, then all they are doing is USING our country like a parasite, driving wages DOWN in the process, using our services that they are not paying for, making the citizens pay more for taxes to make up the difference… basically getting all the benefits with very little shared sacrifice… If they want to participate in all our country has to offer, they should get in line, get a green card (to be a tax resident) and become a citizen…

“I think there are a couple of other issues that are being ignored here as well. The influx of cheap labor from south of the border has helped keep the cost of some goods an services low. Do you know how expensive restaurants would be if they had to pay their back of the house employees wages that had gone up with inflation?”

The illegals are paid cash in most cases, and the net pay is similar to what legal citizens would take home… the advantage to the employer is that they do not have to file taxes, pay a social security et al tax for them, health insurance, etc…

“The second thing is that nowadays their (sic) are some jobs that Americans just won’t do or feel that are beneath them.”

My only reason for this quote is to point out that you can’t criticize Hoosierforlife2005 for his spelling/grammar anymore… this is something that internet journalist are guilty of all the time… they just use spellchecker and forget the grammar… most posters misspell or make mistakes with grammar (including me), so maybe you should cut the young man some slack in the future…

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FURNISHEDOWNER…

“Pos. Outlook, Many illegals have been ripped off by unscrupulous “Immigration Legal Help” offices. They charge huge fees, hold out hope, and then deliver nothing. The illegal has no recourse.”

Any “unscrupulous” companies should be prosecuted… Of course, we can’t even hold our government to a minimum level of accountability…

“If we change the system, those people are going to need competent help and in Spanish, or translation. Many older workers are illiterate or close to it. They had no access to education in their youth. It’s a perfect setup for getting ripped off again. They may need more follow-through than your “one chance” change.”

My best friend when I was in elementary and middle school was from Argentina, and his parents were cook’s for a local restaurant… His mom spoke not a lick of English, but his Dad spoke enough to work in the kitchen and would translate for the mother… while they were learning, they INSISTED that he and his sister not only learn English (which they both had the basics down in six months through a program in school, enough to join a regular class - they were three or four grades apart), but SPEAK it around the house so they could learn. When you WANT to become a citizen, you should SPEAK the language. That does not mean that they have to give up Spanish, but the rest of the country should not have to conform to the many languages out there, but those wishing to become citizens should conform to OUR common language.

BECAUSE we have gotten away from this, and lowered the expectations on this, we just amplify our immigration problems. For those who are seeking to become citizens, during their green card process, part of the requirement SHOULD be to learn a minimum set of English language skills, and citizenship should be granted ONLY when they meet these requirements. It will only benefit them, their kids and our country… How does it help our country if they DON’T lean English???

“Immigrant workers do leave money in this country. They pay for housing, food, clothing, TV’s, everything. Yes, they also send money home. But the longer they stay here, the more Americanized they become. The more they spend.”

The point is that the money they send “home” is not taxed or spent here, INCREASING the burden on the citizens for goods and services the illegals receive…

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Unless you were the bookkeeper for the restaurant, you are only ASSUMING the money was actually paid to the government… The restaurant would have opened themselves up to fraud charges if found out, so a more likely scenario is that they TOLD “Raul” that “taxes” were being taken out, but in reality, they were most likely keeping it…

So now it’s the business that are “pocketing” the money? That is your response? The fact is many of the illegal immigrants ARE paying taxes, but NEVER getting a dime of it back. Yes, what they are doing is illegal, but that was not the discussion. In addition to this there are many companies that pay Americans under the table as well. Are you also against that ? Do you provide 1099’s to your maid and your lawn guy? What about your baby-sitter? Have you paid the taxes that were due for those employees? Or is it okay because they are legal citizens? What about person’s that are self-employed that push the envelope when doing their taxes?

Here you are COMPLETELY wrong… my offer to help, in every scenario Furnhishedowner presented, was sincere…

Once again… the fact that you are putting “friend” in quotes says to me that you are being antagonistic towards the poster. And whether he is liberal or not has nothing to do with his friend’s medical condition.

tell you what, when you step up and offer the same help, actually providing something CONCRETE, feel free to criticize me and/or my intentions…

Perhaps you can expand on this… what do you mean by “concrete” I have spoken with many people from this web-site and given them financing advice on products I don’t even offer. I just enjoy talking about Real Estate and REI. In addition to that I volunteer as a moderator to keep out the spam, and the porn, and the advertisements so that you and the other members are not constantly bombarded with crap. What do you bring to this forum? Other than your anti-government and abortion rhetoric? It is obviously not real estate investor advice because I think we all know about your adventures in Real Estate. So please enlighten me.

I’ve worked in the restaurant industry, technology industry, and construction industry, and I have had first hand experience with this from an employee, manager and employer perspective. They absolutely send money back home… whether it is a dishwasher, cook, a landscaper or painter, or a programmer for an IT company… Unless they are planning on setting up roots here and becoming a LEGAL immigrant, as most people who do rentals here can probably attest, the rent the illegal immigrants pay, which represents their largest expense, is minimized by sharing housing…

I never said they were not sending money home. but as I pointed out in the example of my "friend’ even the legal immigrants are sending money back to their home countries. They are however also spending money here on gas, food, utilities, etc…

What is funny about this is that you challenge my assertion that they send money back home, and then say the same thing… So are you saying that it is only the “techies” who are sending money home “en masse”?

I never challenged that assertion. I only said that I am more concerned about middle eastern techie immigrants funneling money back home that could be used for terrorism. I will say it again. I am much less concerned about a hispanic immigrant sending $250 a month to Mexico than I am about a Pakistani sending $4000 a month to Pakistan (no offense to Pakistanis as i am just using them as an example) where it could be used to fund terrorism.

could care less if they are hispanic, asian or indian… if they are sending the money back home, and it is not being taxed here and spent here, then all they are doing is USING our country like a parasite, driving wages DOWN in the process, using our services that they are not paying for, making the citizens pay more for taxes to make up the difference… basically getting all the benefits with very little shared sacrifice…

What about tourists? Is that next on your list? We have plenty of people that work in their own countries that spend that money here and vice-versa. My wife and I save a little money every month to take a nice vacation every year. In fact I am going to Mexico in September. Should I make sure to not spend a dime of my money while I am there?

driving wages DOWN in the process

Talk about hurting the economy… as I said before there are some jobs that Americans just will not do. I find it interesting that you complain about a union worker making to much, but you also complain about illegal immigrants driving down wages. You just sound like one unhappy individual in general.

If you are so unhappy here in the U.S.A and things are so bad here why not take your unhappy butt to Canada or somewhere else where life will be good for you.

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“So now it’s the business that are “pocketing” the money? That is your response? The fact is many of the illegal immigrants ARE paying taxes”

They are only paying taxes IF the government RECEIVES the money… If not, someone ELSE is being paid… If you are trying to argue that employers who pay cash to illegal immigrants are ALSO paying their taxes, I would like to see more info on this other than assumptions…

“but NEVER getting a dime of it back. Yes, what they are doing is illegal, but that was not the discussion.”

Actually it was…

“In addition to this there are many companies that pay Americans under the table as well. Are you also against that ?”

YES! Because it mean others who ARE paying taxes have to make up the difference… This is why the flat-tax would be great… EVERYONE would be forced to pay… I just don’t trust that the government would stick with just that…

“Do you provide 1099’s to your maid and your lawn guy? What about your baby-sitter? Have you paid the taxes that were due for those employees? Or is it okay because they are legal citizens?”

Well, considering my lawn guy is me or one of my kids… no… Baby-sitter… same… Maid… same… BUT, if I did pay someone for this, and a 1099 were required, they would be allowed to file a tax return to claim their expenses… illegals cannot… I am not sure of the legal implications of hiring a babysitter, but 1099 is Independant Contractor status, not employee, so taxes would be the babysitters responsibility…

"What about person’s that are self-employed that push the envelope when doing their taxes? "

You shoud be allowed to claim every deduction you are entitled to… if they feel you “pushed the envelope” they can audit you…

“Once again… the fact that you are putting “friend” in quotes says to me that you are being antagonistic towards the poster. And whether he is liberal or not has nothing to do with his friend’s medical condition.”

I put “friend” in quotes because I gave my REASON why I believe there is no actual “friend”… It makes no sense to give it legitimacy by referring to it as real when Furnishedowner was given MULTIPLE offers to help her “friend” in a concrete way, but SHE made the decision FOR THEM not even giving them the “choice”… I would LOVE to be proven wrong on this, as I CAN give the people she posts REAL CONCRETE help… Furnishedowner can prove me wrong ANYTIME…

"what do you mean by “concrete” "

Very simple, Christopher… when you step up and offer Furnishedowners “friends” help on their issue’s, THEN feel free to criticize me on my offers to help… But you have not on ANY of them, just criticize me for ACTUALLY wanting to help… :rolleyes

“What do you bring to this forum? Other than your anti-government and abortion rhetoric?”

That’s ony your opinion…

With regards to real estate expertise… I have said on many occassions I am learning, which is why I come to this site… But just because I also find it interesting to post in Random Rambling’s, doesn’t mean I have not offered info on other areas of the site…

“I never said they were not sending money home.”

I was referring to your “en masse” argument… I made the same point with illegals, but you asserted that I was wrong…

"but as I pointed out in the example of my “friend’ even the legal immigrants are sending money back to their home countries. They are however also spending money here on gas, food, utilities, etc…”

Yes, and so do tourists… BUT the money that DOES go back is not TAXED OR SPENT in our economy, which when adding the services they use, AT NO COST TO THEM, shifts the burden to PAY to the tax-payers…

"I live in Texas and have worked with hispanics, done loans for hispanics, and have many friends that are hispanic and Ican tell you they are not sending huge amounts of money back to Mexico "

Although I am not only referring to Hispanics, that may be in Texas, because you are near the border, but I can tell you that landscapers make $12-$18 ($25-35K/year) WITHOUT overtime, and they ABSOLUTELY do send money back, as it is worth MORE in their country… It may be a regional thing…

"What about tourists? Is that next on your list? "

No, Christopher, Tourists PAY their way when they are in the country, and 100% of the money they bring and spend here goes into our economy, both public and private… They pay the sales tax, they buy products/services, etc…

“In fact I am going to Mexico in September. Should I make sure to not spend a dime of my money while I am there?”

Sigh… actually, Christopher, you will find your money goes much further their as it is worth more there… and the money you DO spend there on vacation will go 100% towards THEIR economy… They know that the money goes farther there, which is WHY they funnel as much as they can back to their country… Have a nice vacation… just don’t drink the water… :biggrin

“as I said before there are some jobs that Americans just will not do.”

I’ve got news for you, people absolutely will do the job IF the wage is there, but if an agriculture employer can pay someone $8-$10/hour CASH vs. paying the equivalent of $12-$14/hour for the same service and NOT have to file taxes, pay employee tax, and soon be FORCED have to provide naitonalized healthcare, guess who’s going to get the job?

Americans did these jobs for DECADES, because they DID what they had to do, but the more the government becomes a cushy nanny, the weaker and less self-reliant the people become…

“I find it interesting that you complain about a union worker making to (sic) much, but you also complain about illegal immigrants driving down wages. You just sound like one unhappy individual in general.”

Once again, wrong assumption… I am a blessed individual… I, like everyone else, have my share of challenges I face in life, but overall am happy… I get “unhappy” when I see people being lulled into relying on the government instead of themselves until they are financially enslaved to completely relying on them for their existence… Why would you wish this on anyone?

“If you are so unhappy here in the U.S.A and things are so bad here why not take your unhappy butt to Canada or somewhere else where life will be good for you.”

Actually, Christopher, I PREFER to live in the land of the free and home of the brave… NOT the nanny-state… It is YOU who wants the government to fix everything… :rolleyes Sounds like you would be more happier in France or Great Britain…

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So, we all agree that Social Security is one big PONZI scheme, but for some reason, there are those here who don’t feel nationalized healthcare is the same thing… why?

It has been argued that nationalized healthcare will lead to rationing of our healthcare… it has in EVERY country it has been enacted… and the two darlings of nationalized healthcare… Canada and Britain, it is literrally putting people’s lives in the hands of bureacrats and not their doctors…

Read the following article…

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?em

It is making that exact point…

So, let’s put it on the table… are you willing to have rationed care, just to have nationalized healthcare, even IF it means ending someones life BECAUSE a bureacrat says it costs to much to keep you alive?