Self Conflict.... Standing up for Plege/Anthem?

What do you guys think about people NOT standing up for the plege/national anthem?

The reason why I ask? My family/friends/I have a huge disagreement about whether or not its appropriate.

My case: Its perfectly fine NOT to stand for a country that…

1)Take 1/5-1/3 (sometimes more) of my income. Thats being OPPRESIVE.
2) Doesnt treate all citizens equally. (Gays cant get married. Blacks are racistly discriminated against on our drug war)
3. Allows our rights to just flood away, and the people are perfectly fine with it AS LONG AS they are doing well personallly (having a job and such)
4. Doesnt follow the Constitution.
5. World Police. We invade other counties around the world, create bases, and sometimes kill innocent people for the sake of special interests. This is not the individual millitary persons fault, but it is Americas military, and we allow it without speaking up and stopping it. I fully cannot accept this.

Let me ask you guys. I am a HUGEEEEE supporter in the Constitution, not the country. The Constitution stands for principles, while the country doesnt anymore. I like the USA, and I like the people who live in it, but I have a hard time personally putting my hand across my heart and pledging allegiance to something that doesnt follow principles anymore.

In my opinion, I AM MORE AMERICAN for NOT standing up for the pledge/anthem, because by not doing so, I am not ACCEPTING the lesser liberties than the Founders wanted, and so many died for.

The SHEEP PEOPLE of this country gladly stand waving their little flags, not knowing anything about the Constitution, yet bash me for not being American. Just being America isnt what made America great, what made America great was the Constitution and limited government that our Founders created. IMO im a real America, for not standing for a new oppresive America and ACTUALLY KNOWING the Constitution.

The “tea party people” will soon fade away when the Republicans take office, and the Recession comes to an end. However, the Constitution and limited Government that created this great country will not, IMO.

If America continues to go down the road of not following the Constitution, I personally cant pledge allegiance to just another country. America without limited government is just another country. Whats sad it… many Americans have never even read the Constitution. IMO they are tyrants because they are the ones responsible for giving away MY freedoms.

In terms of disrespecting the Military people for not standing… let me ask you guys this. People have died for our freedoms. Well… these freedoms are under attack by the people of this country and the Government. How is BLINDLY accepting the status quo and pledging allegiance more American and respectful to the soldiers than NOT STANDING and ACCEPTING the people to take away the freedoms that they died for?
I love what America USED to be, but I dont LOVE what America is now… (and its not because of Obama/Dems).

Thomas Jefferson and our Founders would be DISCUSTED with our curent country, not only the Government. INFORM YOURSELFS… CHRIST. I find it highly unlikely our Founders would keep pledging allegiance to a countr that doesnt have principles anymore.

I think America is the greatest country in existance, but for reasons that I already have stated. If we get away from those reasons, do you still pledge allegiance to a country that is NOTHING like the country we used to be.

I fully expect to get bashed here for not being a Sheep and just blindly following America. Thoughts?

The older I get, the more I find myself being LESS “American” and more of just a Constitutionalist.

I used to not understand FdJakes mindset, you know, the “whatever, you can still make money, youll never change it” attitude, but now im beginning to understand. Everybody else only cares about themselves, and puts themselves before our freedoms, so screw it… ill do the same.

Im never going to win against the Tyrants/idiots of this country. They are glad to continue not following the Constution as long as it serves them well.

Im a Christian, who has morals. This country doesnt follow morals anymore, and I cant in good concious blindly support it. Ill continue to be a support of the Constitution and what America used to be, and Ill vote with a informed Constitutionalist mindset vote, but thats all.

Im going to just worry about ME and less about following/supporting America. Im going to make it.


Good to hear from you!I can understand your frustration with the current condition of the way most of america seems to be.I don’t think FD does’nt care,I think he just means keep trying to succeed no matter what.Trust me he has numerous problems with the govt,any small business does.

On the pledge topic,that’s the beauty of freedom is that’s your choice.I choose to stand out of respect for the people who died to preserve the freedom to do as I wish.Even the choice to “Pledge” or not is a right of freedom they fought for.I agree with you on the wrong direction govt is taking,but I’m greatful to have a voice and able to use it.I personally believe that if I were to not pledge,it would mean I don’t believe in our founding fathers either.Since our flag was born to date is what I’m giving alegence to,not to the current affairs.

I believe there are more people watching this govt now,than since our founding,,and by the number of people(and technology)that's a big plus on our "constitutionalist"side.People are awake to the lies and scams,,thank God they are finally awake.

Personally I think you’re very smart and aware of your govt’s corruption.Just don’t box yourself into the “bunker type” because it will instantly make you lose any credibility.Win arguements with facts of history and because liberalism/progressives throughout history have failed,you’ll have them cornered with facts.Be prepared for the name calling and labeling after this happens,it’s what they do when they are cornered and run out of scripted lies.It’s funny,ridiculous,but funny!!!

I pledge to the Flag of the United States of America,
One Nation, Under God, Indivisible,
and Justice for All…

Hoosier, you of course, are free to do whatever you want, but consider the following:

The pledge has an interesting history, but no matter it’s origins, consider that in that pledge, you find SUPPORT for the Constitution and the founding principles under which the country was founded. It is a pledge of loyalty to your country and its principles NOT politicians. You are pledging allegiance to the Republic and what it stands for, a recognition that God is sovereign, and a declaration that our nation is one nation, not a mixture of hyphenations, that we are strong and that we seek justice for all.

When you state it, you place your hand over your heart, or if in uniform, you salute it… BOTH signs of respect and gratitude.

People certainly aren’t saying “I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the hyphenated States of America, and to the Republic, for which I disdain, a fragmented Nation, free of God, divisible for political and personal gain, and Justice for some.”

The ideals of the founding of this country are embodied in the actual pledge… so when you pledge allegiance to it, you are pledging allegiance to the founding…

I don’t see how you show RESPECT for the Constitution by NOT pledging allegiance to the Republic for which it stands… people who die for the country deem the flag not only worthy of pledging allegiance to and saluting it, but having their coffins draped with it, and their loved ones presented with it… it must mean more than a politicians feeble misuse of it… the amount of respect those who defend it show the flag and pledge should be your guide NOT those who disrespect it…

You pledge allegiance to the REPUBLIC and its rock-solid principles NOT politicians or those within who undermine our country…

What I have found is that people getting bent out of shape about the country versus the constitution tea drinkers, Republicans Conservatives, Democrats Liberal, the NAACP, the KKK, the Christians the Muslims etc. is what makes this country OUR country. If we were in Russia or Iran we would not have this discourse. The people that are tearing this country down are evidence that the system works. One day your views will be in control tearing the country down (from the other point of view). You have to play the game, you win some you lose some but because you CAN PLAY the game is why I think you should stand not because you are winning the game.



By being HONEST with YOURSELF and worrying about your OWN success…


Your family

Your future children

Your future neighbors

Your local schools

Your friends

and ON and ON and ON…

Successful people SURROUND themselves with OTHER successful people. (How many CRACK HEADS are in Nursing school with you?) They work on problems they can actually FIX…They HELP each other because THEIR SUCCESS BREEDS SUCCESS in others…It’s a big CIRCLE…I help a friend get into a property that works for his business, then HE helps me buy his old building from the owner at a reduced price because he tells me everything that is wrong with it!!!

BUT…Remember…You CAN NOT MAKE someone successful unless THEY WANT IT…

Congrats on reaching your halfway point in nursing school!!! YOU’RE DOING IT KID!!! Why worry about BULLSH*T you can’t change…These are HUGE, GIGANTIC, Country wide problems…Should you spend time WORRYING about them or in your BOOKS for school??

Keep your goals clear and your HEAD even CLEARER. Worry about things worth worrying about…and most important…DO NOT day dream through your life…Don’t worry about the BULLSH*T that’s out there. Have a PLAN, FOLLOW that plan, stay focused, and ENJOY the challenges that BUSINESS throws at you. Figuring it out is the FUN part…the MONEY is how society keeps score!!

This country is going to do what is going to do…UP…DOWN…Sideways…I worry about myself and my family and I TAKE ADVANTAGE of IDIOTS that don’t. When I say take advantage of idiots I mean buying FORD STOCK and PROPERTY when other IDIOTS are FROZEN with FEAR!!!

If more Americans just spent their time making sure their own SH*T was together this country would be in FAR better shape than it currently is. But when you have DECADES of spending by MORONS that feel the need to drive $60,000 cars yet don’t have $1000 in the bank…


Kid…You’ll do just fine in this Country…Worry about YOURSELF for now…You’ve got a LIFETIME to work on the COUNTRIES PROBLEMS!!!

Hoosier, I think you’ll find that this country will ALWAYS have its problems. You don’t have to agree with, or like everything that goes on, to love it and show respect during the PLEDGE/ANTHEM. I stand out respect for what this country was created for and the sacrifices made. If I ever get to the point where I don’t, then I’ll leave for the tropics! On another note, remember that your success doesn’t lie in what the govt. does/doesn’t do. Opportunities are created every day. Its up you find them and make them work for you…

Opportunity is like beauty… it’s in the eye of the beholder… you can find opportunity no matter where and what country you live in. People make money all over the world, it’s just that in other countries it is much harder because of the system of government they live under. If it were only about money and individual success, we could just ignore the obvious… unfortunately, it is this mindset that has led us to where we are now currently…

I think an advantage you have Hoosier is that you have been exposed to thoughts and ideas that unwrap your POTENTIAL at a much earlier age than alot of your peer group. The fact that you live in the land of the free, home of the brave, lets you bring as much of that potential to the surface as you want. That’s not so true in other areas of the world.

Just remember, it was passed to you, and you in turn have an obligation to do the same… or you can follow the mindset of just doing for yourself only, and contribute to the demise of what you say you hold dear through indifference… contrary to what some say, indulging in the pursuit of both is not mutually exclusive…

In America, the choice is yours… for now…




I don’t play the bleeding heart BULLSH*T others here wallow in…I see the REAL WORLD in REAL TERMS…

Whether you like it or not here’s the REALITY…


Pick what side you want to be on.


Money does not CREATE opportunity all by itself… it makes it easier to bring opportunity to fruition…

It is more DESIRE than anything else… this country is replete with examples of poor-man made good…


I reject that it is money that makes you free… If that were true, this country would have never been…


The rich people you are referring to (the ones that “make the rules”) are also the ones who are historically the ones that are more corrupt and take advantage of others, placing the yoke on others and in their pursuit of self hurt others in the process… that is a coward IMHO…

What are you saying? You can’t be rich AND do your part in passing along to others that which you’ve benefited? Or it’s OK that future generations have to live under a political environment that is less free?.. To who much is given, much is required… it could be argued that an affluent man has more obligation, not less…

Fortunately, you don’t have to “choose sides”… you can be affluent AND support and defend the constitution… the Founding Fathers were an EXCELLENT example of this…

There is an old saying… Money magnifies who you really are…

WRONG…The richest men in this country during your favorite period of time… COLONIAL ERA AMERICA…WROTE OUR CONSTITUTION because like NOW, THEY wanted to make the RULES!!! Their biggest B*tch was they COULDN’T control the game!!! Taxation without Representation…And GUESS…Just GUESS who went on to “REPRESENT” all the poor farmers living in Colonial America??? It was the RICH GUYS that wrote the RULES!!!


BY FAR…The entire list of signatures on the Constitution was basically the Colonial Era’s version of the Forbes Richest People In America.


The RICH have been making the rules here ever since!!!


“I reject that money makes you free…if that were TRUE, this country wouldn’t exist.”

Well it IS true…100% true…Do a little READING about how all that FRENCH FINANCING (MONEY to us Rich folk) during the INFANCY of this country kept it ALIVE!!! Without that MONEY the USA would have been DONE, GONE, OVER…That my friend is an ECONOMIC FACT!!!

The funniest part of your post???

“MONEY does not create opportunity, It’s more DESIRE than anything else.”

Are you FOR REAL??? Look at the next line of MORONS waiting to buy their LOTTERY tickets and you can see a WHOLE LOT of DESIRE there too!!
How’s that work out for 99.9% of them???

When you actually GET RICH…Let me know how it affects you…Until then…You’re just GUESSING!

I’ve DONE IT. Spare me all your THEORY and talk to me when you’ve made your first profit on an investment. Then do it 100 times more and we can talk about what it’s like to be RICH and the OBLIGATIONS you have.

“WRONG…The richest men in this country during your favorite period of time… COLONIAL ERA AMERICA… WROTE OUR CONSTITUTION because like NOW, THEY wanted to make the RULES!!!”

WRONG… they BASED those “rules” on the idea that ALL MEN were endowed by THEIR CREATOR, not money, with certain UNALIENABLE rights…

In addition, they were NOT all rich, but they GAVE their fortunes AND their lives in the process… so like I said, the two are NOT mutually exclusive, but you can remain indifferent… it is a FREE COUNTRY after all, thanks to those who came before you…

“I’ve DONE IT. Spare me all your THEORY and talk to me when you’ve made your first profit a real estate investment.”

I call your bluff… tell us what your NET WORTH is… let’s see what you define as “rich”… in the meantime, since we KNOW that won’t happen… There’s no theory involved… I’ve made money starting with NOTHING but desire…

“Are you FOR REAL??? Look at the next line of MORONS waiting to buy their LOTTERY tickets and you can see a WHOLE LOT of DESIRE there too…GOOD LUCK with that money theory!!”

Some of our GREATEST success stories started out with more DESIRE than money… As if comparing wannabe’s with a desire to get something for nothing to people with motivation to work for it from the ground up is at all a comparison… Are YOU for real???

“When you actually GET RICH let me know how it affects you…Until then…You’re just GUESSING!”

LOL… yeah OK… looks like you made my point… :beer

Like I said…

Let me know what’s it’s like being RICH when you ARE!! And I know for a FACT you ain’t even CLOSE.

And is making your money from NOTHING the same as making money on real estate before you’ve sold it???

We know how good you are at that! LOL :beer

“Let me know what’s it’s like being RICH when you ARE!! And I know for a FACT you ain’t even CLOSE”

Like I said… we KNEW that wasn’t going to happen… so since your bluff was called and you decided to back away from YOUR NET WORTH… tell us… what is YOUR definition of “rich” Fdjake?.. as IF it had ANYTHING to do with the topic… off again on ANOTHER Fdjake distraction from the thread… :rolleyes

“And is making your money from NOTHING the same as making money on real estate before you’ve sold it???”

We know how good you are at that! LOL"

Yeah, and we KNOW how GREAT your math skills are, don’t we… Maybe THAT’S why you don’t want to tell us what your NET WORTH is… :biglaugh :lol

FREE the HUD-1 FDJAke!

What are you HIDING/AFRAID of???


What’s Jakes definition of RICH???


I’m not about give some fool like yourself any CLUE as to my net worth…Based on your postings here, myself and a few others seriously wonder about your mental status at times.

But play your GAMES…It’s all you got!! :beer

"I’m not about give some fool like yourself any CLUE as to my net worth…

LOL… That’s OK Fdjake, NEVER MIND about YOUR net worth, just tell us what YOU think is “rich”…

“Based on your postings here, myself and a few others seriously wonder about your mental status.”"

More mysterious “others”… LOL… funny how they NEVER seem to come out and post it themselves, and funny they only appear when you find yourself threatened… Do you STILL think you in ANYWAY intimidate me??? :biglaugh :lol

“But play your GAMES…It’s all you got!”

Yeah, I’M the one playing games… I call you out, you AVOID it, and I’m playing games… I thought you had grown a little…

Oh…I’m heart broken I’ve let you down…

And YES…You play the games…When you’ve got NOTHING for experience INVESTING…all that’s left is BULLSH*T and games…and YOU my friend have BOTH in abundance…


Maybe I should remind you of that little PM you sent me after our last little debate…The one where you asked for a TRUCE.

I get LOT’s of PM’s…YOU INCLUDED!!!

Someone felt threatened here buddy…It just wasn’t ME!!!

But NICE TRY. :beer


Is it OK to mention people sending you PM’s when it’s the guy SENDING you them who DOUBTS YOU???


Tell you what… I give you PERMISSION to post that PM for ALL to see… just give ME permission to post yours as well… let the readers decide…

I also just sent you another one while you were posting…

And yet, we STILL have no answer on “rich” even AFTER we removed YOUR NET WORTH… WHY?

You position yourself as one with the answer to this question but avoid answering it… doesn’t make sense…

SEE here’s were you SCREW this up OVER and OVER…

You get CORNERED…So you throw out a bullsh*t question like “WHAT’S RICH???”

I won’t take the bait because all it is…is a DIVERSION!!!

Like the COUNTLESS times you’ve been asked ON A REAL ESTATE INVESTMENT FORUM about your NEVER ENDING rehab project that was purchased in 2008 and is now STILL ongoing in 2010…

You play the SAME GAME over and over…The problem HERE, on this site is…People here are SMARTER than you give them credit for…They see through this crap EASILY…It’s a JOKE and unfortunately YOU are the one that looks like a complete fool.

That’s a FACT…Not OPINION…

It’s a complete JOKE…HONESTLY…

But I’m done…Have the last word…Do what you want…Your just not worth the effort…You know EVERYTHING…Have all the answers…But when someone points out a FACT that blows up your argument…You just try and DIVERT attention from it.

Good luck in your future. :beer


"SEE here’s were you SCREW this up OVER and OVER… You get CORNERED…So you throw out a bullsh*t question like “WHAT’S RICH???”

Please explain how I’M cornered with YOU not answering the questions posed to you?

“I won’t take the bait because all it is…is a DIVERSION!!!”

There’s no diversion on my end… you made an assertion… SUPPORT IT… We KNOW why you are not answering it…

“Like the COUNTLESS times you’ve been asked ON A REAL ESTATE INVESTMENT FORUM about your NEVER ENDING rehab project that was purchased in 2008 and is now STILL ongoing in 2010…”

LOL… and I’M using a diversion… :bs Please tell us how that has ANYTHING to do with the Pledge of Allegiance…

“You play the SAME GAME over and over…”

No, Fdjake, that would be you… you ASSERT you are “rich”, and when you are called out on it, you not only don’t answer it, but then can’t even SUPPORT IT and give YOUR definition of “rich” SANS your net worth… you ASSERT that I asked for a TRUCE when I asked no such thing, and when I challenge you to support and give you PERMISSION to post the PM and let the readers decide… NOTHING… same game, different day…

“The problem HERE, on this site is…People here are SMARTER than you give them credit for…They see through this crap EASILY…”

Yes, EVERYONE sees it… I am NOT AFRAID to let everyone see our discussion, and my guess is, after you went back and looked at it, you found it wise to go off on ANOTHER of your diversions…

BUT, you can PROVE me wrong… just post the PM’s… I GIVE you permission… Do I have yours also? That will TELL who is BS’ing and who is not…

“It’s a JOKE and unfortunately YOU are the one that looks like a complete fool.”

You keep thinking that FDjake… I SUPPORT what I say…

“That’s a FACT…Not OPINION… It’s a complete JOKE…HONESTLY…”

I couldn’t agree more, and I thought you had grown a little… keep posting though… it will just CONTINUE to show how you don’t SUPPORT your ASSERTION, and that will just reinforce it all the more… EVERYONE DOES see this, FDjake…

I mean THINK about it, FDjake… someone who ASSERTS he is rich, can not provide even a RANGE of his net worth, but on top of that, can’t even say what HE thinks is considered “rich”… why is that so hard for you? SUPPORT what you say, and you ENHANCE your credibility… RUN from it, and you DECREASE it…