CHRIS…YOU SAID IT BETTER THAN I COULD!!!
And I’m taking your advice. :beer
Christopher,
“You just don’t get it nor do I ever expect you to.”
I have basically said they same thing regarding your’s and Fdajkes view… which is why I said we won’t agree…
If you look at both your posts, you are just regurgitating verbatim Obama’s line on this…
They needed TARP so bad that they didn’t start actually putting the money out until almost a MONTH after it was approved… and the banks are giving it BACK only months later WITH interest DURING the “worst recession since the great depression”…
It’s more like Dimon at JP Morgan said - “we didn’t need the money”…
And yet, we STILL can’t get a full accounting of where all the money went… Now, the money that was BORROWED is now part of the NATIONAL DEBT, so we will be paying on it for MANY YEARS to come… and the banks were out in MONTHS??? When the INEVITABLE INFLATION comes, we will be HOSED on the INTEREST alone… It’s ALREADY up over $650+BILLION for this year alone…
There’s more to this than you apprarently are willing to consider…
Like I said.
You don’t understand what was happening and you probably never will.
Your not a small business owner with a payroll to meet and employees to face and say “sorry guys my credit line was cut; I can’t make payroll”.
But more importantly if most of these banks have paid back their loans with interest then TARP is obviously making money for the Govt. and therefore the American people then why are you still harping about it?
It is the same way that you complain about the government trying to regulate the financial system now, but you have also said we would not be in this situation if we would have had stronger oversight in the past.
You just want to complain about something.
Christopher,
Are you THAT gullible… Do you think that the $700 BILLION that was BORROWED for this, and ADDED to the national debt is going away?..
Do you ACTUALLY think that even IF all the TARP money was paid back PLUS INTEREST that ANY of that money is going to go towards the national debt that it is now a part of??? Just like with a credit card, we will be paying on this FOR DECADES… The government is only paying the INTEREST ONLY, and NOTHING is going towards the National Debt principle, and it is has been doing nothing but INCREASING…
When inflation hits, THIS WILL INCREASE the INTEREST ONLY payments we are making…
You, as a mortgage professional don’t see the lunacy in this???
“You don’t understand what was happening and you probably never will.”
No, you obviously don’t see the long-term negative effect of this… We BORROWED money to GIVE to the banks, auto companies (where we lost 10’s of BILLIONS) to LOAN BACK to us at a HIGHER interest… LEAVING the toxic assets they were SUPPOSED to remove from the market…
What happens when you pay INTEREST ONLY on a debt, Christopher? It will NEVER be paid off… so we will CONTINUALLY be paying interest FOREVER on the money that was BORROWED…
And this does NOT include nationalized healthcare, “stimulus”, omnibus, a RECORD 3.5 TRILLION budget, Cap and Tax (trade)…
So, like I said, the rich got richer, and the poor got poorer… Obama has spent MORE than ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS in our 233 year history, including BUSH in less than a year… COMBINED!
Are you THAT gullible???
Sorry America, We Didn’t Really Make A $14 Billion Profit From Tarp, Business Insider, September 1, 2009
From the above article, which you obviously didn’t read - “In light of all this, the Fed’s decision to brag publicly about a few loans that are actually performing is sort of scary — it speaks to a level of intellectual desperation and magical-thinking unusual even for a banker in the subprime/MBS era,” Taibbi writes."
But you keep believing what you are being spoon-fed (you are using their EXACT words)… I bet you believe Obama that his nationalized healthcare scheme “won’t cost a dime” also… :rolleyes
What you don’t get it what could have happened. You act as if this was just a way for the governement to give money to the banks for the fun of it.
As I said…when a PHd from MIT that specializes in the Great Depression says"we need to do something". I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
It is very easy for you to sit back now and say it was not needed, but at the time I assure you. IT WAS NEEDED!
Christopher,
If you’re only relying on a PHD from a guy WHO DIDN’T SEE IT COMING, and GOT IT WRONG on what he identified as the REASON for NEEDING the TARP (remember the name?), DESPITE his PHD, who then almost IMMEDIATELY changed course once it was passed, you can’t be helped…
BUt I can ASSURE you there were OTHER PHD’s and Nobel Laureates who DISAGREED with TARP also…
Just do a simple search…
And you CAN’T get away from the fact that all this spending will COST US for GENERATIONS to come…
Sure Positive sure…
Yes Christopher Yes… but don’t let the facts get in your way… :rolleyes
Here’s the list of hundred of economists who warned AGAINST TARP…
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/mortgage_protest.htm
Dean Baker, PHD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sfouVZQuVk
John Paglia, PHD
http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/blog/index.php/2008/10/03/181/
Bailout Economics:
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/merk/2009/0331.html
Never mind that the makret PLUMMETED AFTER TARP was passed… 13% in the FIRST WEEK and CONTINUED down for the next 6 months… GREAT confidence builder… :rolleyes
Remember this one - “If we don’t pass TARP, we are looking at a wholesale market crash”… TARP passed, and it CRASHED anyway…
Chris,
Don’t bother…
GOOGLE BOY is an expert in economics, real estate investing, the stock market, health care, abortion, political strategy, and global warming…He knows EVERYTHING and he’s “POSITIVE” OBAMA is the ANTI CHRIST!!!
Anyone that REALLY understands what was going on and what was at STAKE knows how this worked…The fact that he uses JP MORGAN as an example CLEARLY shows us he has absolutely NO CLUE what the END GAME was here…It may be NEWS to HIM…but… Of coarse some banks DID NOT need the TARP money…The FEDS knew this…CLEARLY…The REASON those banks were FORCED to take TARP funds was so it didn’t leave the REMAINING banks vunerable to BANK RUNS as they would be viewed as WEAKER Institutions. Weaker does NOT mean INSOLVENT…But at that point in history the FED and TREASURY knew if SOME banks DIDN’T take money, the OTHERS would be seen as having problems… And in that enviroment, people would have RUN on those banks…They were 100% right in doing this…ALL banks, were ALL in…and it WORKED!!! No BANK RUNS…and a orderly economy restored…the banks that didn’t need that CASH have paid it back with interest and the ones that did need the funds are STILL ALIVE!!! Move ahead 3 quarters and we actually have some faint signs of ECONOMIC RECOVERY! In contrast to last years END OF THE WORLD SCENERIOS.
TARP saved our banking system. Positive is in the MAJORITY, THE HERD that thinks it was a FAILURE.
Banking and Investing are CLEARLY not Positives areas of expertise…This guy is so CLUELESS it’s SCARY!!
Arguing with him is a waste of your time…
Oh…and he’s right I DID sell stock in APRIL of 2009…But it was the 20,000 shares of GOODYEAR I had purchased during the OCTOBER PANIC for $5.44 I sold it in April for $10.22 (a $90,000+ profit)
I mentioned this stock in a few posts and went into great detail as to WHY is was a good investment!
Like I said…Doing the OPPOSITE of what the MAJORITY is doing, has made me a LOT of money!
I’ll continue to expand on that idea here for people who actually LISTEN and can THINK.
Now I’ll let GOOGLE BOY have the last word and QUOTE ME TO MYSELF for the next 2 or 3 consecutive posts.(as is his way)
Have at it…MAJORITY
Jake,
I know. Trust me I know.
It is very easy to sit back now and say we would have been okay without because as we all know hindsight is 20/20. But at the time we were heading for a cliff at high speed and lucky for us we had the right people in the right place at the right time otherwise life would have been very different for a whole lot of people right now.
Absolutely right…100% :beer
Fdjake and Christopher,
“GOOGLE BOY is an expert in economics, real estate investing, the stock market, health care, abortion, political strategy, and global warming…He knows EVERYTHING and he’s “POSITIVE” OBAMA is the ANTI CHRIST!!”
First off, I have never claimed to be an “expert” on any of the above… As a matter of fact, you two are the ones who are trying to portray yourselves as the “experts”… I quote the experts themselves, provide links, etc… So your argument is with them… What I do give, JUST AS YOU TWO DO, is my opinion on the subject… and nor have I ever said Obama is the antichrist… :rolleyes
All I am doing is providing the information as it is out there… the two of YOU are the ones pretending to be the “experts”… :bs
And yet, it IS interesting is that the “experts” that I provided above you have no answer to… you embarass yourselves but you are entitled to your opinion…
But yet you two know MORE than the HUNDREDS of economists on the subject… :bs :biglaugh :lol
“But at the time we were heading for a cliff at high speed and lucky for us we had the right people in the right place at the right time otherwise life would have been very different for a whole lot of people right now.”
If you look at the above link to Dean Baker, PHD, he actually responds to that point directly…
But what is REALLY funny is that you said we had the right people in the right place at the right time… you mean the SAME people, PHD’s, who were ALREADY in place, and DIDN’T see it coming in the first place, and MISDIAGNOSED the response, and almost immediately pulled a bait and switch??..
“The REASON those banks were FORCED to take TARP funds was so it didn’t leave the REMAINING banks vunerable to BANK RUNS as they would be viewed as WEAKER Institutions.”
No, the Fed ALREADY had mechanisms in place from the 80’s to TAKE OVER failing banks… The FDIC INCREASED protections to $250K, so they did NOT need to give them the money… The money WENT through foreign governments through AIG to the banks…
“It is very easy to sit back now and say we would have been okay without because as we all know hindsight is 20/20.”
Yes, because as time goes by we are finding out MORE about what has really happened behind the scenes through FOIA requests, and scrutiny of the Fed…
Positive,
What we are addressing which you have failed to understand is not whether or not TARP was needed. That is why I don’t feel the need to respond to your links.
What we are addressing is the mindset of the average american and the destruction of the financial system by the panic that may have ensued. Sure the largest banks in the country may have survived, but what about the hundreds of state and local banks that would have collapsed.
You just don’t see the big picture. It is very clear from all of your postings that you live in a black and white world. For some reason you don’t have the ability to grasp theoretical concepts. If it does not directly affect you then it is not real to you. That might work for you when you live in the world of hindsight because in that world your view can always be right.
But for the guys that are out there on the forefront of running the economy that have to make decisions TODAY they don’t have that luxury. They have to take the information they have and run with it.
So you can try your misdirects and your “you embarass yourselfs” comments all you want, but it is clear in this thread who knows what they are talking about and who doesn’t.
I mean your the same guy who thinks that by invading Iraq Bush was protecting this country. :banghead
Christopher,
"What we are addressing which you have failed to understand is not whether or not TARP was needed. That is why I don’t feel the need to respond to your links. "
And the links CONTRADICT what you are saying… So it doesn’t surprise me that you don’t want to read them… I always find it interesting at how you and Fdjake feel the need to keep track of who’s “winning” the dabate (of course, it’s always you two saying you are and noone else), but I just leave that to the reader, so even though you don’t want to confuse yourself with the facts, others following along on this thread are most likely reading them and watching the YouTube links, which does not bode well for you…
“You just don’t see the big picture.”
Christopher, I am arguing that you don’t see the big picture… as a mortgage professional, the fact that you don’t see this gives me pause…
We will be paying on this for GENERATIONS to come, made it EASIER for future bailouts to occur, NEVER addressed the REASON the Toxic Asset Relief Program was put into place so the toxic assets REMAIN, along with the RECORD number of foreclosures JUST LAST MONTH being added to it, etc, HIGHER INFLATION, etc, etc… All the while the BANKS, Auto Companies get to walk away from the DAMAGE that was created… if you want to argue that the TARP was necessary, why are you not arguing that the money the government is receiving back not go towards the PRINCIPAL of the national debt?
“It is very clear from all of your postings that you live in a black and white world.”
Your opinion only… There have been many times we have AGREED on things… so you must be joining me in my “black white world”, otherwise, the ONLY alternative is that your assertion is FALSE… all that assertion is, is a way to try to suppress someone who disagrees with you… lame at its roots…
The funny thing about it is, under your definition, that you are being just as “black and white” in holding your position DESPITE all the EXPERTS contradicting your position above…
“For some reason you don’t have the ability to grasp theoretical concepts.”
No, I grasp them fine… you just seem to think that if someone doesn’t AGREE with YOU, that they are wrong… pretty black and white of you… unfortunately for you and Fdjake, the links above to the EXPERTS agree with me more than they do you… as a matter of fact, they DIRECTLY contradict your points, so another assertion that is FALSE…
“If it does not directly affect you then it is not real to you. That might work for you when you live in the world of hindsight because in that world your view can always be right.”
Very interesting you looking at hindsight…
“So you can try your misdirects and your “you embarass yourselfs” comments all you want, but it is clear in this thread who knows what they are talking about and who doesn’t.”
Then you are arguing against the EXPERTS which you don’t want to look at… I am quoting THEM to make my points…
“I mean your the same guy who thinks that by invading Iraq Bush was protecting this country.”
How very interesting you quote hindsight above and people acting on “the information they have and run with it”, and yet you don’t see the same for Iraq… :banghead Last I looked, we weren’t attacked AGAIN during the Bush years even though it was pretty much a GIVEN that we would be sooner rather than later… NOONE expected us to make it another 7-8 YEARS without being attacked again on our soil… so he DID his job… It is also shows a basic misunderstanding of geopolitical realities…
So using Fdjakes contrarian philosophy, now that the MAJORITY of libs and the media believe as you do… it MUST be false…
You’re part of the Pelosi crowd that believes the CIA, etc. were a bunch of liars… :rolleyes
How very interesting that a mortgage broker and a guy who invests in stocks and real estate, regard themselves the REICLUB EXPERTS on banking… You somehow think your OPINION is more valid than others… you can crtiticize my position all you want but at least I BACK UP my positions and READ the opposing views…
NEWS FLASH…
The CIA is a INTELLIGENCE/COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AGENCY…
Their JOB is to LIE!!! :shocked :shocked :shocked :shocked
Once AGAIN you BRILLIANTLY display how LITTLE you understand complex concepts!!!
Ughhh.
Your post confirms my suspicions. You don’t even understand what is being discussed here.
We are not arguing whether in hindsight TARP was necessary. What we are saying is that at the time it was about stopping a possible panic run on the banks that would have created a huge domino affect on the economy and the financial system. Was it overkill? In HINDSIGHT it probably was, but at the time a few brilliant men helped this country avoid a complete disaster.
You only focus on the things that affect you. The deficit, taxes, health care, etc… you either don’t care about the needs of the many or you just don’t understand the gravity of the situation because it was not affecting you personally.
There is is a world outside of your window. Outside of your street. Outside of your block.
Fdjake,
“NEWS FLASH… The CIA is a INTELLIGENCE/COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AGENCY…”
NEWSFLASH… That is NOT what Pelosi was saying when she called them liars… There is a DIFFERENCE between lying during the practice of intelligence and counterintelligence and LYING TO CONGRESS and the SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, which is AGAINST THE LAW, which is what Pelosi said happened… Same way a police officer lies to a suspect to trip them up during an interrogation… quite another matter if the police lie in court… ALL the previous and current DEMOCRAT CIA directors said this was NOT TRUE…
AGAIN, you BRILLIANTLY display how LITTLE you understand complex concepts, Fdjake… Do you even take time to THINK before you post?? Or do you just rattle anyting off?.. :rolleyes
If you routinely look at both sides, it is easier to SEE both sides and be able to anticipate the argument and its applicability…
Christopher,
“We are not arguing whether in hindsight TARP was necessary.”
You just DID… YOU brought it up… I AGREE hindsight was NOT necessary… the experts quoted above were ARGUING AGAINST TARP at the time, AND afterwards… of course, you would know this if you read / viewed it…
“You only focus on the things that affect you. The deficit, taxes, health care, etc… you either don’t care about the needs of the many or you just don’t understand the gravity of the situation because it was not affecting you personally.”
What an unmititaged load of crap… sorry to be so blunt… ALL of those things you list AFFECT the needs of the many NEGATIVELY… you don’t see this?? Yeah, I have been arguing I will be affected… wrong, I have been arguing how EVERYONE will be affected…
“What we are saying is that at the time it was about stopping a possible panic run on the banks that would have created a huge domino affect on the economy and the financial system. Was it overkill?”
Yes and what the EXPERTS were saying AT THE TIME was exactly that… you would KNOW this if you read / view the above… so now, with the overkill, we will be PAYING for it for GENERATIONS…
“In HINDSIGHT it probably was, but at the time a few brilliant men helped this country avoid a complete disaster.”
The SAME “brilliant” men who DIDN’T see it coming and MISDIAGNOSED how to fix it, and pulled a bait and switch when they COULDN’T get a blank check and zero accountabiity in reporting from Congress the first time they tried to pass it…
I didn’t know PAULSON’s job description was the ability to see the FUTURE and PREDICT ECONOMIC EVENTS??? :banghead :banghead
What you DON’T KNOW about our banking system could fill a BUS!
But don’t let that stop you from QUOTING from a list of the very ECONOMISTS that ALSO never saw the COMPLETE LOCKUP of credit markets coming…As a matter of FACT, they ALL work at COLLEGES or UNIVERSITIES…Not one of them work in the BANKING SYSTEM. Yet you quote these people as though THEY could have CHANGED the outcome…NOT ONE…NONE of economists you QUOTED forecasted what was about to happen. As far as looking to the FED CHIEF for your economic FORECASTS??? AGAIN you delight us with your complete LACK of understanding…A FED CHIEF’s JOB is FISCAL POLICY…Not ECONOMIC FORECASTING…In addition, a sitting Fed Chairman would NEVER give the markets his OPINION or TALK of a coming CRASH…It would send the markets into PANIC…The now famous “Irrational Exuberence” speech is all the WARNING the markets got by GREENSPAN during the tech bubble. He NAILED IT…and the markets STILL CRASHED.
The TARP OUTCOME was SUCCESSFUL…We have an OPERATING BANKING SYSTEM and an economy that is showing signs of life directly because of that program…
The more you write the more I realize how completely CLUELESS you are…
There’s a TERM for an event like we had…You OBVIOUSLY have NEVER heard of it or understand it…It COMPLETELY explains WHY YOU believe WHAT YOU believe…
It’s called a BLACK SWAN EVENT
The economic events of last year are referred to a such…
There are 3 parts to a BLACK SWAN EVENT…they are…
First…The event is an OUTLIER, as it lies outside the realm of regular expectations, because nothing in the past can convincingly point to it’s possibility.
Second…It carries EXTREME impact.
Third…And here’s where POSITIVE COMES IN…
In spite of it’s outlier status, human nature makes us CONCOCT EXPLAINATIONS for it’s occurance AFTER the fact, making it explainable and predictable…
Positive…You have been PROMOTED…I will now refer to you ONLY as BLACK SWAN
I’ll give you time to GOOGLE Black Swan event and pull QUOTES about it before responding…OR…you can READ THE BOOK…I know that TAKES A LOT LONGER than simply getting ALL your information about these subjects from WIKIPEDIA…But you might want to TRY IT sometime…
Yall still playing ping pong…man,and why??