Naitonalized Healthcare...

My “DISTRACTIONS” as you call them are EXACTLY what you asked for!!!

The PROBLEM for YOU is my “distractions” seem to be difficult for you to argue against and it’s screwing up your theory. And that is EXACTLY what you have…A THEORY…CANADA on the other hand…has a FULLY FUNCTIONING GOVERMENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM…But hey…I’m sure a remodeling contractor from the USA can come up with a MUCH BETTER plan!!

You talk in circles. It’s really unbelievable.

Case in point…On one hand you talk of REDUCING LAWSUITS with your system and how that will be a benefit…then on the same page you COMPLAIN about Lawsuits that are “EXTREMELY HARD to bring” in CANADA…HUH???

Your responses are all over the place. I mention Goverment funded State Colleges and their cost savings as an example of a program that WORKS CHEAPER than the Private alternative, and YOU go off on a 2 page tangent about Wages the first year out of school for HARVARD GRADS??? It’s like watching ANTS. I say…Hey…A city bus is CHEAP, easy transportation… You say…BUT a FERRARI is FASTER!!! Do you even READ your posts before you save them??

Here’s some DATA for you…This is about PFIZER…Other companies have ALREADY done their cutting. This article was written in January and Pfizer DID cut THOUSANDS of reps. If you notice it says that BIG PHARMA has laid off THOUSANDS…Then go back and read my post…See those EXACT same WORDS??? Then show me where I said Big Pharma no longer sends SAMPLES to Doctors???

www.fiercepharma.com/story/pfizer-mulls-massive-sales-rep-cuts/2009-01-16

Apparently…I DO know EXACTLY what I’m talking about…I KNOW you don’t like that…But you have NOTHING as far as a working Health Care Plan…I’d trust your judgement on a HOME INSPECTION before I’d let you set up a Health care system for me…and we all know how the home inspection went on your first flip. :flush

I apologize to all while I deal with yet another distraction from the topic at hand from FDJake…

“and we all know how the home inspection went on your first flip.” -

Ugh, get a new record FDJake, this one’s broken… It was a crawl space, and where the termite damage was, the ground came up to the foundation to within 12", and blocked by crap under there and a column and make-shift repair… probably why the INSPECTOR missed it… WE found it AFTER we started workng on the foundation repair… While we could have treated it and repaired it… we did it right, though, as we decided to do more work on the foundation, because the house interior walls were plastered… it’s called “adjusting to site conditions”, and it’s also one of the reasons WHY you have contingency fees built into your budgets (for the things missed)… :rolleyes

But there you go again FDJake… making ASSumptions without more info… :banghead :banghead

“My “DISTRACTIONS” as you call them are EXACTLY what you asked for!!!” -

No, if you are going to participate, I specifically asked you to address - “Don’t just say vouchers as I laid it out don’t work… say WHY it won’t work as it is laid out…” - If it was “EXACTLY” what I asked for, you would have answered WHY vouchers wouldn’t work AS LAID OUT… instead you come out with “competitiion doesn’t lower prices” BS with two different company models, as if they are related somehow… and you couldn’t even prove that point…

BTW, Even though Medicare Part D has saved money, Medicare spends 20% MORE for the same drugs BECAUSE the government is a layer in between… the VA was able to remove this layer of beauocrisy and work DIRECTLY with the parma companies SAVING MONEY… so I guess there is a benefit after all to working directly with the companies… kind of like AUTO insurance…

More from the related articles listed on the link YOU posted - “And analysts are saying that drugmakers in general need to slash their sales forces by another 25 percent or so, Pfizer included.” -

Guess you missed that also…

Here’s a suggestion… try reading deeper than the article that only HINTS at, but does not support, YOUR ASSUMPTION (i.e. - layoffs for more advertising dollars)…

“The company has taken a particular interest in biotech drugs , which are less susceptible to generic competition.”

  • There’s that pesky competition again… And they are trying to get into that part of the industry where it has LESS competition… Hard to have LESS of something that’s not supposed to be there… And if you read the related articles to the one you posted (on the same page), you will see that they are restructuring towards this end…

“the company is faced with the loss of 41 percent of its revenue to generic COMPETITORS between 2010 and 2012” -

But I thought compeitition doesn’t work in pharmaceuticals, FDjake? These quotes are from the “related articles” right under the artcle you attempted to equate salespeople cuts to increasing marketing efforts to consumers… we can see how accurate that was… You could have to, if you read a little deeper and saved EVERYONE some time…

INSTEAD, IT BECOMES A DISTRACTION… :banghead :banghead :banghead

… continued…

…continued… ugh…

“Wages the first year out of school for HARVARD GRADS???” - No, I showed you that wages are not only better the first year, but that wage gap GROWS over time to the point where the indivdual from Harvard/Ivy makes back 10 TIMES the difference in tuition from a State college… You just CHOSE to ignore ALL that, because it shows that private education IS the better value, as you put it…

“If you notice it says that BIG PHARMA has laid off THOUSANDS…Then go back and read my post…See those EXACT same WORDS???” - Layoffs themselves were not your point in that paragraph about layoffs…

The point you were making was - “They’ve slowed that to almost a TRICKLE, going so far as to lay off THOUSANDS of sales reps. WHY??? Because they use those funds to market to CONSUMERS NOW!!! Watch ANY nightly news cast …EVERY other commercial is for a drug!!!”

As we saw, “36% was spent on visits to physicians by industry representatives (“detailing”), 28% was spent on drug samples for doctors to give to patients, while only 7% was used for direct to consumer advertising.”

So your POINT was incorrect… BTW, PFizer laid off five times as many NON-salespeople as they did salespeople… try reading the articles/links YOU post…

Then you try to equate companies cutting back during tough financial times (the cuts you cited were in January of this year, and I guess you missed the last line in the article YOU posted - “And with the economy in the tank, more cuts could be on the way.”), and I guess you missed the 800 jobs cut ALSO in the R&D of your same article… Guess THAT money is going to advertising also… :rolleyes

“Then show me where I said Big Pharma no longer sends SAMPLES to Doctors???” - I never said you did, once again, you read into something that wasn’t there… I made the point of how the reps are involved in getting the samples to docs by asking you the rhetorical question… This is a text book example of straw man… Show me where I said what you didn’t say I said…

So, I agree it’s like chasing ants…

Talking in circles - “On one hand you talk of REDUCING LAWSUITS with your system and how that will be a benefit…then on the same page you COMPLAIN about Lawsuits that are “EXTREMELY HARD to bring” in CANADA…HUH???” -

No, I was referring to out of hand frviolous lawsuits and judgements, where HALF the money ends up going to LAWYERS and NOT the victim… IOW, Tort reform…

If an individual is getting screwed by an insurance company, they ABSOLUTELY should be able to sue them… and just like in CANADA, under a government run nationalized healthcare program, you ability to sue or appeal is GREATLY diminished… which is also one of the reasons why I think the DEM’s are going to hear it from their favorite consituents… LAWYERS…

“CANADA on the other hand…has a FULLY FUNCTIONING GOVERMENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM” - Yes, we know this is your sweetheart of a system, yet it has been proven and legal opinions written by their own high court that CANADA’S SYSTEM has WIDESPREAD delays (not hours or days, but weeks and months and years) - “The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public healthcare system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public healthcare. The evidence also demonstrates that the prohibition against private health insurance and its consequence of denying people vital healthcare result in physical and psychological suffering that meets a threshold test of seriousness.”

Thanks but… no thanks!

… continued…

…continued… :rolleyes

“Here’s some DATA for you” - lol, lol, lol lol… :bs …an article you glanced at to try to prove a point that you didn’t and which you didn’t read the additional “data” on the same page… Data… roflmao

“A city bus is CHEAP, easy transportation” - yes, if you want to suffer along with all the others, but a PRIVATE taxi is MUCH quicker, and you only make YOUR stop…

“But hey…I’m sure a remodeling contractor from the USA can come up with a MUCH BETTER plan!!” - But hey, I sell stock and real estate, and because I do, I know everything about everything else, even though I don’t know ALL the laws regarding what I claim to know about… :rolleyes

Do you see how ridiculous you sound? THINK before you post…

“Apparently…I DO know EXACTLY what I’m talking about…I KNOW you don’t like that…” - It’s quite apparent that you do not… but you just keep ignoring those FACTS, if it makes you feel better…

So, to conlcude, your initial point about pharmaceutical competition (although ALSO an incorrect correlation with two different business models), your subsequant point about laying salespeople off to spend more on advertising, your point about Harvard only in the first year, your point about “talking in circles”, your point about Data…

ALL WRONG, and a complete distraction… :banghead :banghead :banghead

Now, to all those who are actually interested in discussing the topic of the thread and not going off on another tangent… please poke holes in the following concept or add to it…

[i][b]"All the government would be responsible for in the scenario I presented, is collecting the money into a sequestered account, providing vouchers that insurance companies can redeem for that account, have the health industry COMPETE for the dollars in lower cost and/or better coverage, and if the tax payer is able to get a better rate than their voucher provides for, they get it back in a refund…

By doing this, it puts the control BACK in the hands of the people and NOT the government OR the healthcare industry… and/or greatly minimizes it."[/b][/i]

Positive,

Using the voucher system if the customer could get a better rate than the voucher provides would the customer pay out of pocket and then be reimbursed or would it be like the Expedia travel guarantee where if the ticket sells for lower than you pay you will be sent the difference in the mail?

Christopher, my initial thinking on this was that the government’s involvement would be to collect the health insurance money from the consumer / companies and issue the vouchers. They are already set-up to do this with the current tax system. Each person / family would get a voucher to use to buy health insurance. When they buy the insurance, if they were able to get the insurance for less than the voucher amount, they could use it towards deductibles, prescriptions, co-pays OR just get the rebate… the consumer then has the choice on how it is appied or rebated…

The direct result is that the whole country (including the uninsured, which will add millions to the pool) are now the “pool”, and heatlh insurance companies will have to market directly to them, just like with auto… The competition will be then on more services, cheaper premiums, customer longevity bonuses, no-claims bonuses…

Thoughts…

I think it sounds like a pretty good idea. To give you an example of a system very similar to yours that works great. My wife works for a VERY large fortune 500 company so our health insurance is extremly affordable. We have an HSA account with the company that we contribute $1000 per year. Instead of having to wait until the money goes in every paycheck the company has given us a debit card with $1000 on it at the beginning of the year and we can use it for any out of pocket health related costs (the $83.00 per month gets deducted from her paycheck in 24 increments that coincide with her paychecks same as our health insurance). That can range from health care deductibles at doctors offices, to prescriptions, to simple health care items like advil. But what is nice is that we have the choice of using the money wherever we want and we can shop for the cheapest prices and then use the debit card wherever we choose. We are not forced to use it at certain places or at certain times of the year while we wait for the money to accumulate in the account.

Positive

Please tell me how this voucher system eliminates the primary problem with the present health care system. Financial Ruin for those who have a catastrophic health issue or who have a kid who gets leukemia, etc.

Eliminating the insurance companies from not covering preexisting conditions, etc still doesn’t get us there as they will just bill the people through the roof and they still have to make a life or financial ruin decision.

Because with the voucher system, EVERYONE is covered through whatever insurance THEY choose… and EVERYONE is now part of the risk pool…

Catastrophic health issue, or Major Medical, is actually cheaper than regular health insurance… one of the reasons why is that it is not used as often as regular health insurance…

Companies who pay for part of their employees health insurance to attract people, can still do so, and the amount that you normally contribute will be combined to become the voucher… I would also favor HSA’s as an additional option…

For those who are not insured or are on Medicaid, Medicare, SCHIP, etc. would have that portion paid into the voucher program, along with their contribution on a sliding scale for income… No matter the income, EVERYONE should have to contribute though… It is for them after all, and when it is free, it is abused… kind of like real estate…

By allowing insurance companies to operate nationally, you are no longer dictated to stay within a few choices of insurance companies per state, but can choose from more, making the competition for the vouchers national and not regional… States will be compeiting for their home offices, offering incentives, etc. to secure them (imagine how good this would be for Michigan right now)… So the companies that are innovative with out of the box thinking, and new ones would also pop-up, and can put together the programs that appeal to the country are the ones that are going to prosper. But, because it is an annual thing, and unlike with nationalized healthcare run by the government, if you don’t like your insurance company, you can leave them and CHOOSE someone else that matches your need…

As it stands now, if you have employer-sponsored heathcare that you also contribute to, YOU are not in charge of making the decision of the insurance company, your company is… this, just like auto insurance, puts you into the drivers seat…

For a healthcare company to participate, they would have to accept pre-existing conditions, otherwise they are not eligible… Remember, they are getting access to the WHOLE COUNTRY, and they are limited ONLY by their ability to attract customers, which creates COMPETITION to get them…

Does that answer your question?

It answers it for the most part. So are you saying that the vouchers that they buy are anonymous? It seems that they would have to be anonymous or the insurance companies would simply only purchase class A vouchers. Possibly they are purchasing a group of vouchers that has been predetermined to have a balanced risk level with both healthy and unhealthy people in it.

I like your idea, just need clarification. If you decide to promote your idea, you will need to write it up in a short article explaining each entities roll in the process so everyone, including the ignorant, will fully understand it upon the first read. Simplicity is key to getting an idea off the ground.

Ubbens,

It is interesting hearing the perspective of someone outside of America and I agree with you to some degree that we need to provide health care for everyone in America.

There is one thing that you are not fully understanding though relating to the comment “Lazy people should not get health care, etc.”

You made some good points relating to people who are down and out and easily work due to their health conditions that they need health care for. I understand this. Conservatives in America don’t have a problem with helping out those who NEED help. I would be more than happy for my tax paid dollars to go to handicapped people who really need it. Actually, I would feel pretty good about it.

The thing you are not realizing is there are many more people in America that are not incapable of working but are in reality nothing more than a blood sucking parasite hooked on open wounds of the American tax payer. The welfare system in America does not encourage those who are down and out to get off their lazy asses and work. So they become experts on working the system. These are the parasites that Conservatives want forced to stand up on their own two feet and care for themselves.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for his lifetime. The problem we have is the bleeding heart radical leftist democrats want to give the fish for votes and keep them sucking off of the tax payers tit for life. Conservatives don’t mind helping a person who is down and out, but that help must be limited and there has to be a point shortly down the road where they are forced to get back on their feet.

Let me give you an example of a typical scenario from one of my tenants. I am a Section 8 landlord which is basically a government program where the tenant gets free rent to highly discounted rent and the government pays me tax payers dollars to make up for the rest that they did not pay, if they pay anything at all.

My standard tenant is a perfectly healthy female who has a kid or four, who pays not a single dime in rent $700, Who gets another $500 to $700 per month in food, who gets an additional welfare check, who tells me, I already have the money for your rental deposit but can you hold off for a couple of days? I can go down to the Ramm House and I can get them to pay it for me. The same girl knows every trick in the book to get their utility deposits paid for them, etc.

In the mean time, they secretly have their boyfriend living in the house. I tell them upfront that every single adult living in that house needs to be on the lease. They tell me it is just them and the kids. I find out the boyfriend is living there within a few months. They did this so they could scam the government and tax payer. They needed to make it look like their household income was low enough to get on the Section 8 program. Now that I know the boyfriend is there using up the water bill that I pay, I have two choices. Evict them and get them thrown off the Section 8 program. Eviction can take 3 months of not getting rent until they are out if they contest in court. Section 8 will immediately stop paying once they find that someone is breaking the rules. The landlord gets screwed. Or I can tell the boyfriend that I know he is living there and negotiate a either I rat on you or you mow the yard and do repairs deal with him.

There are a massive amount of people in America sucking off the tax payers tit and everyone including the liberals know it. We even pay welfare, schooling, health care, etc for over 12 million illegals in this country. Conservatives are sick of the crap and want an end to it. This is what they are talking about when you hear these lazy people shouldn’t get health care statements. It is not directed at those who really need help.

Ubbens,
Very well written. Yes, that is why we too need nationalized health care. We need to join Europe, Russia, Canada, Japan, the rest of the first world in this. Heck, even Cuba has health care for poor people.

Hooch,
I agree that the Welfare system needs to be re-worked. There should be “Job-fare”, not welfare. Mandatory job training and placement for that check. And what about that boyfriend? Is he helping with the kids? Being a daddy? Babysitting? Somehow he has got to go to work, too. It’s a mess when adults have to sneak around and be on the dole.

California used to have a plan for free childcare for welfare recipients who were in job training. It was a great plan and it got lots of Moms back to work.

Furnishedowner

The “typical” boyfriend does not watch the kids or contribute in any way. They typically are not his kids. Blacks as a whole have some very serious cultural problems where the father doesn’t feel it is his responsibility to take care of his children. 80% of black children grow up without their father in their lives which is very sad. I also question whether this is one of the major contributing factors to why there are significantly more blacks in prison than whites when compared as a percentage of population. Blacks only represent 13% of the US population. Statistically one in 10 blacks will go to prison. Not Jail, Prison!

When I find that they are living there I typically confront them and force them to contribute to me as I am paying a higher water bill considering the Virginia average of $25 per adult per month. Their options are to contribute or get their girlfriend kicked off the Section 8 program which has a 2 year waiting list to get back on.

At this point it is their responsibility to mow and do minor repairs around the house.

For those interested in having nationalized healthcare by the government… from your perspective, list the negatives in the current system that you would like to see addressed…

Cost, financial ruin and quickly diminishing coverages by insurance companies. Now, I’m not saying that I want it run by the government. We wouldn’t have these problems today if the government prevented monopolies and corruption through regulation.

We need to join Europe, Russia, Canada, Japan, the rest of the first world in this

Europe, Russia, Canada, and Japan are all second class countries compared to the United States. The United States didn’t become the world’s greatest country by copying the practices of the failures of the world. We became the world’s richest country by being a capitalist country and by the rugged individualism and entrepreneurship of our citizens. We are right now losing that status and our riches PRECISELY because we are moving to socialism. If you want to be a socialist - MOVE TO EUROPE and join the second class citizens of the world!

I agree that the Welfare system needs to be re-worked. There should be "Job-fare", not welfare. Mandatory job training and placement for that check. And what about that boyfriend? Is he helping with the kids? Being a daddy? Babysitting? Somehow he has got to go to work, too. It's a mess when adults have to sneak around and be on the dole.

And what would you do when that lazy welfare recipient refuses to participate in your “job-fare”? You see, that’s the real problem here. You bleeding heart liberals aren’t willing to impose any consequences on people’s bad behavior. If they don’t participate in your job-fare, are you willing to stop giving them food, shelter, healthcare? I didn’t think so… but that is the ONLY way that these people will be motivated to work. As long as someone is paying them to do nothing, they are going to do nothing (except get into trouble).

These people don’t want to work - THEY’RE LAZY! And what about that boyfriend? He’s too lazy to work also. About 1/6 of our population is too lazy to work!!! They aren’t disabled. They aren’t sick. They didn’t lose their job to a corporate layoff. THEY ARE SIMPLY LAZY! This problem is actually CAUSED by the socialists. When you give someone a check for sitting on their lazy butt, you are encouraging them to be lazy. When you pay women to have illegitimate children, you are encouraging them to sleep around. In reality, the government has created an entire class of government paid prostitutes! It’s completely ridiculous and we need to put a stop to it - NOW!

Mike (let’s stop giving money to deadbeats)

Mike,

Great post.

In the meantime…still got that book for you.

-Mike

Mike, I agree with you 100% about the lazy non productive people in America. I also agree that there something that needs to be done about them. I have always been a firm believer in helping someone for a very limited amount of time. Lets say that they lost their job and need food. Ok, 2 months, not for life. At the end of the two months you loose your food and either you get off your a** and get a job or you die. Survival is human nature and they will become productive citizens when given these options. As long as there are enough jobs to support each and every person.

My issue is the health care system IS broken due to the governments lack of attention to monopolies and corruption within the health care system. I will repost what I previously wrote as it explains it clearly. Also, there are free market ways of resolving this issue, the problem is that the conservatives act as if the only way to resolve this issue is via more government control which is not the case. BTW, I am a far right wing conservative, further right than Rush or Hannity. About lined up with Levin, Savage or Bortz.


I am a far right conservative republican that supports health care. Wow, doesn’t sound like the conservatives on the radio, does it? Actually, I agree with most of what they say but have to draw the line here. I support health care for everyone as I am pro life. Not just pro life for babies but for adults as well.

I don’t think that someone should have something catastrophic happen to them and have to choose between death and financial ruin. With those two choices in mind, they have to choose financial ruin.

I am not saying health care for someone who has the sniffles. I am saying major medical with a relatively high deductible. High enough to encourage people to not use it unless it is absolutely necessary. Low enough to allow someone to pay off this debt within a year or two and be back on their feet without a tarnished credit rating or a lifetime of debt.

Those who want to see the doctor for minor issues can pay for it out of their pocket. When negotiating with a doctor, I have found rates significantly drop if it is mentioned that you are paying cash. A $75 dollar 5 minute consultation quickly turns into a $40 consultation.

I am going to let you in on a couple of things you may not be aware of as being issues within the health care industry. This is insider information that I am aware of and that I have not heard a word of from the mainstream media.

My father was a vice president of The Travelers Financial Services prior to their breaking up. Back when they were one of the largest insurance companies in the United States. He told me a couple of very interesting stories about the industry.

His first month or so that he was on the job, he was meeting with top executives of many of the other largest insurance companies in the country and the topic came up of raising premiums by a certain percentage. The insurance companies all agreed together to do so.

At this point he was afraid from what just happened. My dad was previously the VP of RJ Reynolds / Nabisco and if something like that ever happened he knew that he would be sent straight to prison for price fixing or collusion. So… upon returning to The Travelers he immediately reported to the president and said I can’t believe what just happened, they were all talking about raising prices and now I am going to end up going to jail. The president of Travelers laughed and informed him that there legally is an exception for insurance companies and this is perfectly legal for him to do so within the industry.

This was quite shocking information to my dad and when he told me about it I too was surprised that the government would allow this.

A couple years down the road the insurance giants were going head to head with the all mighty American Medical Association. The AMA has some sort of book. It’s kind of like a guideline of what is acceptable to pay. Got the sniffles and insurance companies must pay __ dollars. Got a broken arm and it will cost insurance companies ___ dollars. Well, the AMA decided to increase prices across the board to the insurance companies. The insurance giants were outraged at this and got together to decide how to handle this. They were fully aware that the AMA was controlling the supply and demand of doctors in the United States so they decided that they would threaten exposure and let the cat out of the bag.

They came back to the AMA with a response that if they even think about raising the prices they will drop the ball on how the AMA was only allowing a certain number of doctors graduate per year. Just enough to account for population increase and death of doctors. This tight control of the supply and demand is what has allowed health care prices to go through the roof and medical doctors to get paid 3 to 4 times the amount that doctors and highly educated people of other fields get paid. Even the doctors that simply treat people with the sniffles are flush with cash after a short term of paying off medical school due to this monopoly that the AMA has created.

They also promised that they will make sure that with the breaking of the news they will ensure that thousands upon thousands of highly qualified doctors get imported from India to the United States which will in-turn create an atmosphere of competition, and prices will drop regardless of what the AMA does due to the change in supply and demand.

Upon the receipt of this counter threat, the AMA quickly decided against raising prices to insurance companies and the issue was resolved.

Our health care system is broken. Broken in a huge way. It is broken due to non-regulation. I am not saying that we need government-controlled health care. I am saying that we need regulation in this industry. It is broken because the government has allowed a monopoly with the AMA and allowed collusion among insurance companies. Sure, there are many other reasons why it is broken. These are two glaring examples which have caused the American people to feel that even Government controlled health care would be better than what we have now. And it would be. When the government doesn’t enforce the laws we already have in place, or give special privileges to particular industries, things get broken and it makes it seem that the only option is more government control.

Regardless of the situation, people need health care and the system needs to be fixed. Health care costs are through the roof in all areas, from pharmaceuticals to hospitals, from insurance to doctors themselves. No one should face a financial ruin or death decision due to a catastrophic health problem. Lets get this problem fixed. Those who are profiting to a massive degree will go down kicking and screaming all the way and that is to be expected. “Plants” will be hired by the profiteers to appear on the media giving reasons why this is a bad idea. A campaign will be kicked off likely using scare tactics, etc. Regardless of what happens, we need to push through major medical for the people.