More Gun Insanity

[furnishedowner]

Two mass killings by crazy gun shooters  in two days!  We can die by gun violence every time we visit an office building, a post office, or send our kids to school.  People are getting really upset by this.  We need laws with teeth to lessen gun crime!

American guns are killing thousands now just over the border.  Mexico doesn't have the resources in place to stop it.  This mayhem is on our doorstep.

Change is urgently needed!  I propose:
1.  Border checks on all cars going INTO Mexico.  This would also stop the flow of stolen vehicles.  They could at least stop hot-wired, no-key cars now.  More funding for Border Patrol is necessary.

2. A gun is a lethal weapon and kills people. Gun owners  MUST be trained, certified, licensed.  Just like pilots.  You can't fly your Cessna 150 without training and licensing.  It could kill people if you crash it. These classes would also help weed out crazy people.  A gun license would be mandatory and renewed annually, just like your DMV  or pilot's registration.

3.  Two guns per person would be allowed without paying a "gun tax". For a personal arsenal, there would be a gun "excess tax" after that number.  Two are enough for protection and hunting.  These two guns would be registered to the owner, and could not be sold without new registration.  Just like for a car.  The gun taxes would be used for monitoring gun owners.

4.  Anyone convicted of assault, domestic violence, or other crimes lose their right to have a gun.  Big fines and/or jail time for violators.

5.  Personal responsibility and fines if you lose your guns.  If your house is broken into and guns stolen, you obviously didn't have them adequately secured in a locked and bolted-down gun cabinet.

6.  Moratorium on gun shows until the laws are put in place to regulate them nation-wide. FEDERAL GUN LAWS.  Gun show laws have been flouted for years.  Harrison/Klebold, the Colorado shooters, got their illegal guns from a girl who got them in a gun show, no questions asked.

7. Jail time and federal enforcement (Guns, Tobacco, Firearms) and criminal penalties and fines for those who sell guns without background checks and waiting periods.

8.  Gun buy-back programs in the crime-ridden inner cities.  Where ever there is excessive gun crime, like hold-ups and drive-by shootings.  Let's get back to knifings, fistfights, and bludgeoning.

9.  Ban private ownership of armour-piercing bullets, machine guns, and weaponry that only belongs in the hands of the military.

I'm not proposing prying those guns from your cold, dead fingers.  Just licensing, taxing, controlling guns. To lessen the senseless killings.  More like Europe and Britain, where people DO own hunting rifles and personal protection handguns.  Where that ownership is taken much more seriously by the state.

There will still be legal gun owners who go amok like maybe the Army psychiatrist did.  But we CAN lessen senseless gun deaths by stricter enforcement.

Our state has dropped to #11 in drunk driving deaths from #1.  All because this state started sending people to jail, took away their licenses, put ignition interlocks in, and had NO TOLERANCE for violators.

IT'S TIME TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT GUN VIOLATIONS.

Furnishedowner

[Bluemoon06]

How about make it mandatory for every person over the age of 18 has to have a gun on them whenever they are in public. Everybody armed all the time.  You walk into my work place to shoot me and it is guaranteed that someone is going to shoot back.

[justin0419]

Motorcycle wrecks are killing thousands of Americans each year.  We need change.  I propose:

2. A motorcycle is a dangerous vehicle and kills people.  Motorcycle owners MUST be trained, certified, licensed.  These classes would also help weed out poor riders.  A motorcycle license would be mandatory and renewed annually.

3. Two motorcycles per person would be allowed without paying a "too many two wheelers tax."  For a personal collection, there would be a motorcycle "excess tax" after that number.  Two are enough for transportation and enjoyment.  These two motorcycles would be registered to the owner and could not be sold without new registration.  The motorcycle taxes would be used for monitoring gun owners.

4. Anyone convicted of wheelies, burn-outs, or otherwise reckless driving would lose their right to own a motorcycle.  Big fines and/or jail time for violators.

5. Personal responsibility and fines if you lose your motorcycles.  If your house is broken into and motorcycles stolen, you obviously didn't have them chained down with brake disc locks in a locked garage.

6. Moratorium on motorcycle shows and races until the laws are put in place to regulate them nationwide.  Federal motorcycle laws!  Motorcycle race laws have been flouted for years.  Pastrana, McGrath, and others got their motorcycles from sponsors - no questions asked.

9.  Ban private ownership of crotch-rockets, drag bikes, and trials bikes that only belong in the hands of professionals.

We should license, tax, and control motorcycles to lessen senseless accidents.  There will still be people who ride wheelies, but we can lessen accidents by strict enforcement. 

IT'S TIME TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT MOTORCYCLE RIDERS!


The point is there are plenty of people out there who think motorcycles kill people too.  It's not the bike, it's the 20 yr olds with ZERO riding experience who go out and buy a liter bike for their first two wheel experience.  So is it the motorcycle's fault when 20 yr old idiot cracks the throttle for all its got and he loses control at 155 mph?  Or could it be the PERSON'S fault?

Gun control laws wouldn't stop a nutjob from doing what he did.  The irony of this is people in the ARMED FORCES can't even bring ARMS onto the base.  Every base I've been to has a sign that states no weapons are allowed on station.  If you live in Base Housing, you generally have to lock up your guns in the Armory.  So even though there are TOUGHER GUN CONTROL LAWS on a military installation, this still happened.  Think he would've gotten that many shots off if other LAW ABIDING military members were armed?

[propertymanager]

Socialists, marxists, and communists have killed more people than any other groups on the planet.  Mao killed 70 MILLION people.  The soviets killed tens of millions in their purges.  The solution is to get rid of the socialists, marxists, and communists.  Let's send Obama and Furnishedowner to Europe where they can be happy!

Furnishedowner - you are absolutely CLUELESS and your thinking skills are about as shallow as they come.  Until last year, there was a TOTAL gun ban in Washington D.C..  Citizens of our capital weren't even allowed to possess a gun in their homes for self-defense.  The result of these strict gun laws - Washington D.C. is the murder capital of the U.S.!

Contrast that to states that allow citizen to not only possess, but CARRY handguns.  These states have violent crime rates that are MUCH LOWER!  Stay with me Furnishedowner and try to think of a reason why areas with MORE legal guns have lower crime rates.  Think hard.  You can do it.  Ask someone if you need to.....   

Did you figure it out?  Oh well, you tried.  Here's the answer.  Criminals will have guns regardless of the laws - BECAUSE THEY'RE CRIMINALS AND DON'T OBEY THE LAW.  When gun bans and strict gun laws are enacted, criminals know that ALL law abiding citizens are unarmed and are easy targets of crime.  When law abiding citizens possess and carry guns, the criminals don't know who is armed and who is not.  They are risking their lives everytime they try to perpetrate a violent crime, because the intended victim might shoot back.  Here in Ohio, just in the past couple of weeks, THREE violent criminals were killed by law abiding citizens who were carrying guns.  Not only are three scumbags DEAD, but other would-be criminals know that they are risking their lives by attempting violent crime!!! 

Let's consider the Fort Hood shooting.  This muslim terrorist KNEW that these soldiers would all be disarmed.  If these soldiers were all armed (or only a few were armed), do you really think he would have been able to shoot 43 people?  The same is true of the office building shooting, do you think 6 people would have been shot if the victims were armed?  The solution to violence is for people to be RESPONSIBLE for their own safety.   Wake up Furnishedowner.  Stop depending on the government for your every need.  Buy a gun and be responsible for yourself.

By all accounts, the police were on the scene at Ft. Hood very quickly - within 5 minutes of the first shot being fired.  I'll bet 5 minutes seemed like an ETERNITY for those unarmed victims as they were being shot.  Five minutes WAS an eternity for the 12 that died.  No matter how good the police are and how many of them there are, the police can NOT prevent crime.   WHEN SECONDS COUNT, THE POLICE ARE ONLY MINUTES AWAY!!!!
 

[sellnbama]

Bluemoon,
That's a great idea,don't all Texans carry weapons anyway?lol

Propertymanager,
I respect Furnished for being in this business,but I think her post on this subject is totally insane.And I 100% echo your reply.Man,,I'm still in shock after reading that.Unbeleivable.

[Hoosier4life2005]

Furnished.. was your post a joke...?   

Everybody else has already explains how stupid your post it, so Im not going to bother.  But... I have a gun, and if people like you (idiot Liberals) try and take it, ill kill them when they try.  Just warning you.  Go ahead and try, I dare you.

Also, nobody cares about "your state."  If "your state" is doing such a damn good job, then "your state" can have these gun laws, and the rest of us wont.  Wait.. arent you from California?  LMFAO, you should be embarresed if so.


Read the 2nd amendment.  You dont have the RIGHT to make me have a license.  Wow.. and Chris says im uneducated 

[furnishedowner]

I thought this post would be like unleashing a pack of dogs, and I was right.  I was trying to get some measured, intellectual feed-back on a national problem. Come up with some common-ground solutions.  But you all rushed out baying at the moon, and running around in circles.  Frothing at the mouth.

THERE ARE A LOT OF GUN DEATHS.
I PROPOSED HOW TO LESSEN THEM.

Our country has the highest rate of firearm deaths amongst the 25 high-income nations.  We are the gun violence capital of the first world.
The European Union has a population comparable to ours at 376 million.
Their gun deaths are about 1,200 a year.
OUR GUN DEATHS ARE 34,000 A YEAR!

Doesn't something seem wrong to you?

Here are the calm, thoughtful solutions of my peers on this site:

Bluemoon06-- Mandatory gun-wearing at all times for everyone over 18.  To respond to crime.
(My blood ran cold, thinking of my 5th grade teacher, Mrs. Schnebly, packing a pistol.  Nursing home occupants, in their wheelchairs, shaky hands on their personal firearms.)

justin0419--Forget guns!  What about the motorcycle deaths?  (Justin, the 5,000 motorcycle deaths ARE a concern.  However, those riders mostly just kill themselves.  The motorcycle is basically an instrument for transportation.  A firearm is basically an instrument for killing... other people.)

propertymanager--Endlessly worried about Socialists, Marxists, and Communists.  Even Mao.  Who is dead.  You've got to get out more. And the Washington, DC gun ban didn't work!   (Could it be because in 32 states ANYONE can purchase firearms without ID or a criminal check?  And then just drive those guns right into DC...)

hoosier--Your reading comprehension seems to be slipping again.  Did I propose taking your gun?!  Heck no.  You can carry a gun, and shoot anyone molesting you. I hope you do.  I don't want those criminals around either.

The cost to our society is enormous.  70,000 gun injuries a year.  With the average medical cost of each gun injury being $33,000.  Unnecessary treatment costs of getting shot. Think what that's doing to our health care bills.

And 5 children die EVERY DAY from accidents or child suicide by guns.

These excessive gun deaths are insanity.  Listen up, because I am one of many of those middle-American that wants change. That wants it now.  That will vote for any candidate, of ANY party, who has the balls to propose tighter federal gun enforcement.

What OTHER solutions can you offer?  Or do you just want to howl?

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedonwer,

"OUR GUN DEATHS ARE 34,000 A YEAR!"

Just as with infant mortality, you only look at the total number, and don't consider the sub-categories.... more than HALF (55%) of the total gun deaths were SUICIDE-related...  unforunately, removing the gun will unlikely change the outcome of this statistic...  They will just INCREASE the other causes...  FYI, suicides rates and attempts are increasing under Obama...

Children are statistically more likely to be killed by 5-gallon buckets, beds or pools than a gun.  Do you recommend we get rid of those also?

"justin0419--Forget guns!  What about the motorcycle deaths?  (Justin, the 5,000 motorcycle deaths ARE a concern.  However, those riders mostly just kill themselves.  The motorcycle is basically an instrument for transportation.  A firearm is basically an instrument for killing... other people.)"

Well, let's see.... if the mortorcycle deaths are just them "killing themselves", how does this fit in with the 16,880 people who commited suicide with guns?  They both "mostly kill themselves"...  A firearm is not only an instrument for killing... it is ALSO an EXCELLENT instrument for SAVING LIVES...  last stat I saw on this was over 1.6 MILLION violent attacks were thwarted because of LAWFUL guns...  that's a death rate of 7/10th's of 1% compared to crimes PREVENTED...  But lets' get ridiculous and say that the number was only 25% of of 1.6 MILLION or 400,000.  Are you telling me that the VICTIMS would not INCREASE if the criminal was the only ones with the gun???...  So, as we can see, guns are not only for "killing people", but are used MUCH MORE for PREVENTING CRIME AND DEATHS of the INNOCENT...

For states that allow conceal/carry, this is important for two reasons...   1) criminals are unsure which potential victim has a gun to defend themselves with, and.....  2) people who have guns and are attacked are in a much BETTER position to defend themselves...


"propertymanager--Endlessly worried about Socialists, Marxists, and Communists.  Even Mao.  Who is dead.  You've got to get out more. And the Washington, DC gun ban didn't work!   (Could it be because in 32 states ANYONE can purchase firearms without ID or a criminal check?  And then just drive those guns right into DC...)"

Have you considered the black market?  Do you think that it would INCREASE the black market for CRIMINALS in search of guns?  Not to mention, DECREASE the taxes currently coming in for LEGAL LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS pay in sales Tax...  CRIMINALS certainly don't like to use guns that can be traced or be taxed...  So, the people who LAWFULLY USE THEM would be INFRINGED UPON, without STOPPING ANY of the criminals from getting the ILLEGAL guns anyway....  how does this make any sense?

"And 5 children die EVERY DAY from accidents or child suicide by guns"

And, according to the CDC, 20 people die EVERY DAY from poisoning, and 17 people die EVERY DAY form suffocation... 

I read an article recently that said that the number of auto fatalities were down due in part to the economy and higher gas prices...  according to your logic here, guess we need to make sure LESS people have a job and INCREASE gas prices, so we can reduce the auto-related deaths..


I guess what it comes down to is you are relying on surface numbers to make your argument, and when you break it down, it becomes apparent that you are being manipulated and either didn't know it or just don't care....

Take, for instance...  recently, you were complaining that your daughter had to pay somewhere around $1500 for an emergency room visit for a couple of stitches (which she could have had done at a FRACTION of that cost at a GP), which she could have avoiding by having the insurance you say everyone else should have.  She obviously didn't have the insurance because she couldn't afford it or didn't want it.  Well now, should this ludicrous healthcare bill go through, your daughter will no longer HAVE THAT CHOICE, and she will either HAVE to get the insurance at a cost of THOUSANDS PER YEAR. or pay a TAX (FINE) for NOT getting insurance (for which she will have NOTHING TO SHOW FOR), or face IMPRISONMENT...  how does this AT ALL compare with the founding of this country?...

From what you post, you unfortunately buy into feel-good stuff WITHOUT really considering the damage, which is why you are easily manipulated...  People looking to usurpe power RELY on people who approach problems like you...  and the sad thing is, people who DO take the time to question what they are being spoon-fed (you know, those "baying at the moon" and "frothing at the mouth"), get to have their VOTE NEGATED by people who THINK they are really looking for intellectual feed-back on a national problem. 

[tatertot]

We had a shooting death here the same day. An ex-husband with a history of beating his ex-wife into the hospital, multiple death threats against his ex-wife, and who has restraining orders against him, broke a window at midnight, crawled into his ex-wife's house and attempted to beat her to death.

911 has a recording of him breaking into the house because she was on the phone calling for help at the time. You can hear the glass breaking on the tape while she pleads for help.

The ex wife got her hands on a gun (unknown whether he brought it or she had it), fired a warning shot into the ceiling, fired a shot into his leg, and finally shot him dead as he was attempting to strangle her.

That poor b*stard didn't have to lose his life if only the ex-wife hadn't been allowed to have a gun. So I see your point, furnished owner. No guns allowed and he'd still be alive. Ex-wife and 2 kids would be dead. But he'd still be alive.... unless he commited suicide after he killed the rest of the family.  But it's definately proof: guns kill people.

[tatertot]

PS: a much better solution would be to outlaw insanity.

[propertymanager]

I was trying to get some measured, intellectual feed-back on a national problem. Come up with some common-ground solutions.

No, you definitely were not looking for measured, intellectual feed-back on the gun issue.  Guns don't kill people - PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.   I (and the others) gave you the measured, intellectual answer to the problem.  Get the government out of our lives and allow citizens nationwide to exercise their 2nd Amendment right to BEAR arms!  If a LOT more people carried guns, violent crime against honest citizens would be drastically reduced.  Either the criminals would stop attacking law abiding citizens or they would be killed.  Either one would be fine with me.

Furthermore, the silly statistics you posted don't reflect anything that would be changed by gun control.  CRIMINALS (by definition) don't obey the law.  Even if guns were totally outlawed, criminals would have guns.  Just as in England, banning guns here would result in an EXPLOSION of violent crime.

The murder rate here in the US is primarily the result of scumbag on scumbag crime.  Drugs are a HUGE reason for this type of crime.  If you REALLY want to stop the violence, arm law abiding citizens and GET TOUGH ON CRIMINALS unstead of pampering them as victims. 

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

And update on guns from England, and a WARNING from it's citizens (video taken from a news report)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVAQOUi6ec

Gun crime doubles in a decade, Telegrapgh.co,uk, Published: 7:00AM GMT 27 Oct 2009

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6438601/Gun-crime-doubles-in-a-decade.html

From the article...  "There were 9,865 firearm offences in 2007/08, a rise of 89 per cent on the 5,209 recorded in 1998/99".  &   "Some 1,760 gun related injuries or deaths were provisionally recorded for 2008/09, compared with 864 in 1998/99"

This flies in the face of your position, Furnishedowner...  so having the government forcibly removing the guns from law-abiding citizens did NOT help them in the UK...  So how does more TAXES make it harder for the CRIMINALS to get guns??? 

Gun crime is UP in England, and the black market has made them MORE available to the criminals, who will use them ANYWAY... 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1


So if your intent was to truly get "intellectual feed-back on a national problem"... your problem now is that the feed-back is proving your point wrong... 

Now, let's hear an intellectual argument from you based on the facts... that will push the conversation forward..


Your reliance on the government for all the answers make you a slave to the way THEY want you to live your life... you realize this, right?  They've got you frothing at the mouth about healthcare and guns and manipulating you with phony stats...  One of the reasons this healthcare bill is so DANGEROUS to our freedoms...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/11/06/judge-andrew-napolitano-health-care-freedom-congress/?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g2:r2:c0.194915:b28740639:z10

[furnishedowner]

posOutlook,

So if our millions of guns are used MUCH MORE TO PREVENT CRIME and SAVE INNOCENT VICTIMS, we should be about crime-free by now?  Huh?

And Europe, Canada, and Australia should just about be wallowing in crime, those poor suckers, with their tougher gun laws.  Can't hardly defend innocent victims.

Your argument makes no sense.

Tatertot,

If I had a crazed spouse trying to kill me and the kids, why, I'd be armed, too.  I never said there should be no guns!  I just said they should be much stronger regulated.

That 34,000 deaths a year is insanity.

Yes, the gun suicide rate would go down. A gun shot to the head is final, irrevocable, way too easy.  Try jumping off a cliff or drinking ant-killer.  It's a tougher way to go out.

We used to have a neighbor with a severely brain-damaged adult son.  He was an attempted gun suicide at age 17, with Daddy's gun.  Blew off only a portion of his skull, though.  That kind of senseless teenage gun mayhem would be less with restricted access to guns.  Not to mention the young men with guns killing each other EVERY NIGHT on our nation's streets.

Gun violence is ruining our country.

The definition of insanity is to continue doing what doesn't work, while expecting different results.

Our current gun laws don't work.  It is insanity to accept the status quo.  34,000! Dead! Americans! in 1 year! What a waste.

We need new national gun laws, strictly enforced.  It'll take a courageous President and Congress to do this.  It probably won't be a first-term project.

How many annual deaths are acceptable to you who don't want to change any laws?  15,000? 20,000? 50,000?

Furnishedowner

 

[furnishedowner]

C'mon, Propertymanager, not that old chestnut..."Guns don't kill people, people kill people."  No, actually PEOPLE WITH GUNS kill people. 34,000 of them last year.  And 77,000 gun injuries.

Sorry if you don't like those "silly statistics".

I watched the YouTube video from England.  Very slanted reportage on protests against prohibition of FOX HUNTING.  An inhumane blood sport.
They also reported gun crime is escalating in Britain, after a ban on handguns.  Your solution?  More guns!  Arm everyone!  But we are armed, aren't we?  How many guns per capita here?  And how much crime, compared to England?  It's not working-- more guns-- is it?

I wonder what that "exploding gun crime" in Britain would be, compared to statistics from ONE U.S. city, like Detroit, or Washington,DC.?  PosOutlook?  You like that research.

I offered one solution to lessen gun crime:  Buy back guns.  No questions asked.  With REAL money.  Get the number of street guns down.  This could be a solution for British gun crime, too.  Compete with the Black Market.  If the average cost of treating a gun shot victim is $33,000, how many guns will that buy off the street?

Again, I am not advocating getting rid of guns.  I realize that is impossible and unworkable.  I have never said that.

I agree that some criminals will always have guns.

However, every 15-year old wanna-be thug does not need easy access to guns, like now.

How about....

Control guns at the border.
Buy guns every day off the street in crime-ridden areas.
Put federal laws in place to stop indiscriminate selling of guns.
Federally mandated background checks, criminal ID's all purchasers.
Hold gun sellers accountable for their sales.
Hold gun owners accountable for their weapons.
Registration, training, licensing of weapons/owners.
Pay for this with an "excess arsenal tax" on more than 2 weapons.
Ban "cop-killer" bullets, machine guns except in Military.
Mandatory Drug Rehab, beefed-up Tobacco, Drug, Firearm agency.

It's going to take a Federal, yes, government, solution to control guns so we don't have so many deaths.
Just like federal laws were put in place to regulate the automobile, back when auto deaths kept rising.

It's time to stop the insanity.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"So if our millions of guns are used MUCH MORE TO PREVENT CRIME and SAVE INNOCENT VICTIMS, we should be about crime-free by now?  Huh?"

Yes, think about that Furnishedowner...  Estimates are that we have around 200 MILLION guns in America...  and 34,000 deaths from guns, of which 55% are from suicide, leaving about 15,300 for ALL other gun deaths (or 0.0000765 of all guns out of 200 MILLION guns)), how is this possible????  Statistcally speaking, this is a FRACTION of Englands gun deaths as a percentage of population, and England has OUTLAWED guns for LAW-ABIDING citizens...  and their gun deaths WENT UP!...  If we followed the same path, our numbers would INCREASE also, are you saying it wouldn't???

Unfortunately for you, it is your argument that does not make sense...

Next question for you NOT to answer (let's not start a trend now)...  How is adding TAXES going to stop CRIMINALS from getting guns ILLEGALLY???

"I never said there should be no guns!  I just said they should be much stronger regulated."

Guns are ALREADY regulated FOR THE LAW-ABIDING owners...  waiting periods, increased fees, etc...

"That 34,000 deaths a year is insanity. "

Then you should be wanting the SAME regulation for automobiles, as they OUTNUMBER ALL GUN DEATHS COMBINED...

"Not to mention the young men with guns killing each other EVERY NIGHT on our nation's streets."

And you'll note that these young men are doing it will ILLEGAL GUNS...  so how is TAXING the illegal guns these young men don't use going to STOP them from using them?

"Our current gun laws don't work.  It is insanity to accept the status quo.  34,000! Dead! Americans! in 1 year! What a waste."

And even MORE automobile deaths... our current car laws don't work...  it is insanity to accept the status quo... what a waste...

"How many annual deaths are acceptable to you who don't want to change any laws?  15,000? 20,000? 50,000?"

You are apparently willing to accept MORE deaths from automobiles... There are LESS cars than guns on the streets, and MORE deaths...  how can you explain this inconsistency?...  Since there are MORE DEATHS due to automobiles with LESS cars on the road (approximately a 1/3 the number of guns) vs. gun deaths which have MORE law-abiding owners, your priorities seem to be out of whack...  considering automobiles have a MUCH GREATER chance of killing MORE than one at a time...