The DOS (due on sale clause)

Gary,

So your trustee was just a cop.

I see by your answer about Surety Bonds that he only has what the state requires and past that amount it is everyone for themselves.

25-30 non provable deals, you are just a newbie, come back when you can really educate someone about our great industry, no mater how you try to say it doesn’t matter about deals, it certainly does when offering valid investing information to a poster, I was expecting to see 200 or 300 deals, by all the huffing and puffing you do, but maybe 30, a joke at best.

John $Cash$ Locke

PS: Bobo, let him ramble on now that we all know he is still wet behind the ears, it is a wonder he can spell DOS.

By the way, John, what law was that that says your way of doing “subject to’s” is legal? Still waiting for your answer. You don’t have one, John, and every deal you do is in violation of the DOSC.

You broke the rules of this board and got personal, John. I can outspell you and why not. I can take you out on the golf course and own all your property by the 18th hole. My Ph.D. obviously outranks your education if you have any. Your background is co-ownership of radio and television stations (you needed help). Your whole schtick is hype. Don’t ask me to expound on what type of an insecure man has to put $$$ in his name. Plus, I just saw your photo and you sure don’t look like your Avatar.

Just keep on selling your Birddog book for $48 and praying that interest rates don’t go up and lenders don’t decide to start invoking the DOSC as Dave mentioned above. Are you licensed and bonded, John???

And you criticize a man of my trustee’s credentials? Just a cop? Founder of the California Trust Deed Association, etc. Anyone who reads his background will see right through you.

Da Wiz

25 deals :crying5:

$48! ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile: ::slight_smile:

My trustee was a cop. :crying5:

First to Bobo:
You asked for opinions and then the only guy (me) who offers one that is contrary to what you want to believe you shoot down. I ask myself why should I even bother. If you know so much about it, why bother to ask for opinions. I work in the industry so there is a chance I may know something you don’t.

But, for your information, DOS does happen and quite frequently. the other dave mentioned Grand Junction. I was in Denver in the 80’s and lost my home during the same time Grand Junction was falling apart. They were looking for ways to avoid enforcing the DOSC but only with the borrower. They offered to let me pay $100 a month (supposed to be $1000) until I could pay more. I told them I had the property rented and they enforced the clause. Even though they already had thousands of properties they had foreclosed on. This was 1989.

Lenders DO NOT Want your property. They want you to pay. They also want to move non-performing loans from their books. It ruins their reserve ratios and forces them to up their reserves to cover for it. The best way out is to move it to the write off column. But thats not what we are talking about here.

Just because you have never seen or heard of anyone exercising a DOSC does not mean it wont happen or does not happen. If you only believe what you see there is no point in going to a discussion board to learn something new because you wont believe it until you see it.

A whole industry called the Savings and Loans went under because they were forced to keep their own paper. Interest rates went to 12% and that portolio of loans performing at 5% didnt look so hot when the costs of lending were at 9%. It showed up as losses on their balance sheets. To put it bluntly, if your income is 5% and your expenses are 9%, you go out of business. You think anyone in the banking industry remembers it? So dont believe they wont call those low rate loans. They wont even do qualifying assumptions on them now unless really backed into a corner. And then they want a sparkling clean assumption and wont budge an inch off guidelines.

Countrywide sells all their paper in the secondary market. They also service the loans for the investors. On a business basis, they could probably care less about DOSC, but they have a responsibility to their clients to do what is in the clients best interest. So selectively enforcing codes is not out of character. Just remember, it doesn’t mean they will do it on all occassions in all markets.

So in a situtation where a guy shows late payments (motivated seller perhaps?) and is paying a much lower rate than the going rate and there is equity in the property enough to cover the costs of foreclosing, I’d say you stand a pretty good chance of the loan being accelerated. A lot is going to depend on how easy they can get rid of the property. lots of equity… count on it.

But thats only my opinion and I have only been in mortgage banking since 1987.

You other two guys… well, I have been here only about a week and already its getting stale. Can’t you guys co-exist? I don’t think there is only one solution to every problem. I have my underwriter looking into refinancing a property in a trust. At first glance she says it will have to be treated as a purchase because the beneficiary was never on title and that will show up in the title report. (which means the loan would be treated as 100% financing and subject to higher rates and limited product choice) and it is not an arms length transaction since both parties were in the trust meaning again, a limited selection of financing vehicles. Mind you, she is not saying its impossible but it is not going to be as easy as stopping off at the bank during your coffee break to pick up a few hundred thousand.

Thailanddave, go back and read closer. you just mentioned a foreclosure from the 80’s. I mentioned in my post that this is a different era. There weren’t near the number of foreclosures then as there are now. Same thing applies to the S & L scandals, which was a bit deeper than just this one thing.

The thing I will agree with, and DID in a previous post, regards houses with enough equity to cover the cost of foreclosure. Those will occasionally get called, but those aren’t the typical sub 2 properties to begin with. With the high majority of sub 2 deals, the equity is too small for it to make sense for a lender to call it due. two percentage points in interest is not worth their time unless there is a ton of equity…and in most cases, there isn’t enough to justify it.

I also am smart enough to know if rates ever went up 5 points or something, that lenders will ramp up the efforts…and scare tactics…regarding loans. Of course they will pressure people. But rates are not going to go up THAT much, not even close.

The above doesn’t take into account borrowers being late on payments. My opinion is about title transferring, and loans being kept current. In this situation, unless there is a ton of equity, and unless rates go up sharply, the chances of them being called is slim to none. NOTE, I did not say the word never, but it is rare in the above circumstances. Of course if they aren’t being paid it will make a difference. I am talking about loans being paid on time after transfer of title.

My main point is…as a rule…lenders do not want to take a loan being paid off into a foreclosure. There are exceptions, and I pointed them out here and previous. so please dont misquote me.

thailanddave,

Seems you have difficulty in making up your mind about whether you learn more when Gary and I discuss our methods of investing or not, be that as it may, I would suggest you listen to an attorney and investor rather than two laymen should you want to learn about trusts.

This link will help you understand. http://www.legalwiz.com/articles/dueonsale.htm

Say Hi to Bill for me.

John $Cash$ Locke

Dave,

If you want to refi, it is necessary to dismiss the trust, refi, then reinstate. The Trustee will write a letter indicating that the beneficiary is making the payments and considered an owner by the IRS. This has never failed to work before. You may want to talk to Albuquerque Dave on this.

Da Wiz

P.S. - Great post, John – I had lost that link.

And regarding a previous posters question…sorry, I’m too lazy (by choice) to look back…if there is a deal I take sub 2 and it appreciates enough to give the lender a reason to call it due, and they do, I can guarantee that property will be refinanced so fast their heads will spin, one way or another. I will protect my buyer. If you think outside the box, you will get things done. If you or your buyer have credit that isn’t good enough, and the deal has that much equity, get someone who has good credit to help you, and pay them out of the equity.

In any business, you will have obstacles. If you think through things, you will be successful.

John & Bobo,

I am reposting this from another thread for you. TRY THIS:

How smart is your right foot?

This will boggle your mind and you will keep trying it at least 50 more times to see if you can outsmart your foot… but you can’t!!!

  1. While sitting at your desk, lift your right foot off the floor and make clockwise circles with it.

  2. Now while doing this, draw the number 6 in the air with your right hand. Your foot will change direction!!! = There is nothing you can do about it.

Just a little item to show us all that we are just human (guru or not), no matter how smart we THINK we are.

Have a nice day.

Da Wiz

Gary,

In your line of business isn’t that called the “Waffle Effect” :eyecrazy:

John $Cash$ Locke

This may be the wrong website for me. I did learn a lot when you guys stay on subject. When you argue who is more qualified to give advice because you can twirl your foot in a circle or even because who has done more deals does nothing to educate anyone.

First, I think the trust is pure genius. It eliminates a lot of the areas that can cause trouble, ie the DOSC, creating liens on the property etc. It does it legally. What I don’t like are the fees NAR charges.

If Bobo doesn’t think they will ever be called thats his business. I think his post was just asking for validation of how he thinks things should work and not really interested in really protecting himself. It may be interesting for someone to explain what happens when the loan IS called due and you have already taken $5000 from a buyer on a lease/purchase.

I do point out that in every stock market bubble the investors say “Oh its different this time”. You can’t find a period of more foreclosures than the S&L scandals of the late 80’s. I’m in the industry, so if I thought there was no risk, I wouldn’t bother worrying about it. If anything, this time they will call more loans due to try to avoid the situation before. There are many more computer modeling programs available now, much more forced disclosure by the banks and probably more actuaries working in our business than any other except insurance. Why do you think its possible to get a NO Money down, stated income/stated asset loan with a credit score down to 600? Somebody figured the odds somewhere. Its much more sophisticated now and the smart thing to do is to move the properties off the balance sheet and onto the investors. IF a guy outside the industry thinks there is no risk, let him go on his happy way. There is nothing anyone can say that will change his mind. I am in the industry and there is nothing you can say that will change my mind about the danger of a bank calling the loan due.

Couple of other points. Although a NAR is legal, pointing out that it is part of a DRE (Department of Real Estate) continuing education program does not make it a legal program. You can get approval to teach a continuing education program about fraudulent practices too. All you have to do is type up your class and submit it to the DRE for approval. Anything that will help a real estate professional know more about the business. A CE does nothing to validate or invalidate a program.

Having someone at Countrywide recommend someone does not in itself mean countrywide endorses a program or someone should try to avoid the DOSC. If it is/was someone in the legal department or upper management, it carries some weight. I guarantee they would not knowing advocate a way to circumvent a legal clause written into their contracts, deeds of trust etc.

Countrywide, and all other lenders, employ salespeople called loan officers. Asking a loan officer whether something violates the dosc is closely akin to asking the cashier at walmart whether its legal for Kmart to have tennis shoes made in a sweat shop in China.

You guys posess a wealth of information but in your quest to prove who knows more, it gets clouded and twisted. I have learned a lot here in a short time, but I have started to question the validity of it due to the bravado that accompanies it.

How much is 2% of that again?

Somebody correct me if Im wrong (like I would have to ask) but landlord insurance appears as a rider on the home-owners insurance policy and is more expensive than a normal resident owners policy because it covers liablilities arising from tenancy in addition to the destruction of property due to fire, acts of god, etc.

If you are suggesting that they cancel the original insurance policy that names the lender as a payee, you will most certainly attract the attention of the bank. They will be notified as soon as the insurance is cancelled since the note is no longer secure.

Dave,

In the case of my own home, I converted my homeowners ins to landlord ins and the difference in cost was negligible. Ironically, my owner occupied loan was with Countrywide. I called a “loan officer” and told him exactly what I was doing, i.e., placing a tenant in the property on a triple net lease who would be making the payments.

I quoted Garn-St. Germain and he was pretty arrogant about the whole thing. I told him to review it with his legal dept and get back to me. He didn’t return my call so when I finally reached him he reluctantly agreed that their hands were tied relative to the DOSC. Just thought I’d relate a real life experience.

Da Wiz

The above is what I will do if a lender wants to call a loan due. They won’t call one due with low equity unless rates skyrocket. If something happened and I could not refinance, I would definitely protect my buyers interest.

I stand by what I said. There may be some loans called due here and there, but I have never read, seen nor had proven to me that it is anything beyond a slim chance. I am open minded and if anyone can prove this wrong with facts or numbers, I would be more than glad to retract this. All I know is the DOS is not an issue for me. If anyone wants to worry about it, go ahead.

I also agree somewhat about the NARS trust. I am not at all against trusts, but the cost is too high. I would rather put the money in my pocket than build a moat around my properties. Those that wish to use it, go for it. For low equity sub 2 deals, I don’t feel a need to use one, nor will I be concerned about the DOS.

Don’t put words in my mouth and say I am looking for validation about the DOS. I am not. If there are statistics to prove my opinion wrong, I’d like to see them. And I am only talking about deals where title transfered and payments were kept current. Any other situation, such as falling behind in payments, is irrelevant to this. I just want to see some facts. I have never seen anything to prove otherwise. The fact that you work in the industry and just say it is so, isn’t good enough. I will never change my opinion about this unless there is some documented proof that tells me otherwise.

Good investing.

If this is a risk vs reward business or the lower the risk then less the reward, even Gary will agree, when he posted his way vs my way, I just about doubled my gross profit on same deal.

So if the DOS becomes an issue then I will re-evalute, but really I am not concerned this will be an issue when all those ARM’s, No Interest and Balloon Note Loans the lenders have been doing start coming do, talk about full plates the lenders will have plenty to worry about other than calling a performing loan.

Just check out what is happening with foreclosure’s today give it another 6 months and see how full the lenders plates are.

John $Cash$ Locke

John,

You said, “If this is a risk vs reward business or the lower the risk then less the reward, even Gary will agree, when he posted his way vs my way, I just about doubled my gross profit on same deal.”

No, John. The only reason you had a slightly higher profit was because I chose to share my profits with everyone in the transaction. I gave the seller $17.5K more dinero than you, and I shared future appreciation with my tenant. WIN/WIN/WIN.

I realize being cutthroat is good business so get all you can. I choose to SHARE, make friends, and create good karma. It’s just a matter of preference.

Peace.

Da Generous Wiz

Gary,

Thirty One Thousand Dollars ($31K) in profit is a “slightly higher profit” than you make on the same simple deal?

You keep on being the sweet sensitve person you have been when someone ruffles your feathers on this board, what did you tell the one poster “Kiss My A” when you disagreed with him, no wonder you need to share, make friends and lose money.

Let’s face it just like lease options, your way is the same, only when you grow up and find out it is just as easy to get the deed, then you will start making the kind of money investors deserve to make when doing creative real estate investing deals.

If you further need to share then take the profit you make on a real deal and give it to a good cause like St. Judes, Salvation Army, etc,. at least now you have given to some worthwhile causes, where you will make thousands of new friends very happy, rather than two people.

John $Cash$ Locke