I have to ask you guys this. If you are sitting in your house right now and the doorbell rings you get up to answer it and there is a policeman standing there. He asks you for your ID. What do you do? Do you give him your ID while you are in your own house or do you tell him to pound sand?
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John $Cash$ Locke
I ask him if they has been a law broken or not…
Ive actually had an experience with this when I was 17. Me and my friends were shooting BB guns, and somebody thought they were rifles. We were on our property, and in our house when we found out somebody called the cops.
The cop came and said “I need some ID, theres been a report of some shooting or someting over here.”
I politely respond “Did I break a law for shooting a BB gun on my property?”
He responded… “BB gun? No, but we thought it would be a rifle or something. Im going to see some ID. Whats your birthday kid.” (as he pulls out his little paperpad)
I respond “Ill show you the BB gun, to show you it wasnt a rifle, but your sure as hell not getting any ID from me because I didnt break any law.”
Basically, long story short. I made that experience alot harder since I didnt just show my ID. However, if I this chance over again I would do the exact same thing.
If somebody came knocking on my door(police) and they wanted some ID (without their being a crime reported) I would tell them to F@# OFF.
Theres something called the Constitution.
“It generally does not apply to a person to a person in their home which is why Gates was invited outside into the public.”
Bluemoon06, you keep erroneously trying to say that Crowley invite Gates outside to somehow “trap” him into being disorderly…
According to the Police Report AND published accounts, which have NOT been disputed, Gates was asked to come out on the porch when Crowley FIRST ARRIVED… Gates FOLLOWED Crowley outside AFTER Crowley said he was leaving… Gates actions INSIDE the house did not cause the arrest, his actions OUTSIDE, in public, in full view of a small crowd gathering with the other arresting police officers witnessing it AND agreeing with it took place BECAUSE he was warned multiple times he was being disorderly and CHOSE not to stop… As Crowley said - “Gates controlled the outcome”…
“I didn’t say it was not against the law, I said it was not a crime. There are lots of laws that control things that are not crimes. It is not a crime to safely run a red light, it is against the law.”
Using your source, http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/disorderly-conduct.html, it states that Disorderly Conduct “Disorderly conduct charges might be dropped after an arrest or may be prosecuted as misdemeanors”
LEGAL definition of Crime…
“CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state or Congress as a felony OR misdemeanor.”
“If you are sitting in your house right now and the doorbell rings you get up to answer it and there is a policeman standing there. He asks you for your ID. What do you do? Do you give him your ID while you are in your own house or do you tell him to pound sand?”
First, I would ask if there is a problem, and if I were then told they were investigating a possible robbery REPORTED BY ONE OF MY NEIGHBORS, I (and any reasonable person) would absolutely give them my ID… WHY WOULDN’T YOU??? They just told you that they were investigating something that is injurious to noone else but YOU! Now, you are going to be a jerk after they DROVE to your home after getting a call from your neighbor to PROTECT YOUR INTERESTS??? :rolleyes
Tell him to pound salt… :bs THINK about what you are saying… that means that ANYONE in your home, EVEN A REAL BURGLAR, can just tell the police to “pound salt” WHILE they cause you and/or your property injury… yeah, something I’m SURE the police want to project to the public… now, imagine if it was a kidnapping situation… THINK about it… it was called in that there were TWO people, and Gates REFUSES to tell Crowley if there is another person… How does Crowley know that the second person is NOT the homeowner who was forced into his home at gun point???
What you FAIL to realize, is that they CAN get a warrant if you DON’T provide ID if you are interferring with an official investigation…
Can you imagine the lawsuit, if the police arrived to a house that was REPORTED to have a potential burglary in progress, only to leave after the person INSIDE refused to provide ID… and then the house was robbed and/or someone was injured???
I really don’t get your thinking OR rationale on this…
You guys jumped on the story knowing the whole story. Gates did not have the whole story. He was sitting in his house and a cop knocked on his door. I am putting you in his shoes. I am really interest in why things work like they do so I would probably ask a few questions and the net result would be I would provide ID. But you constitution, guns and privacy guys would hit the ceiling if a cop asked you for your ID in your house.
You say if he told you there was a suspected burglary. That was something you agreed with. But supposed he told you that he was looking for a lost puppy and asked for your ID. Would you give it to him?
I like $Cash$ info. That was great.
I think it’s important to understand that the majority of the cops are there to help us. The don’t put on their uniform and put their lives at risk just so they can see who they can hassle. Cops don’t look for trouble. If a cop asks me for my ID, I give it to him IMMEDIATELY! It doesn’t matter where I am or what I’m doing… sort of… :biggrin. But hese guys have a job to do. If asking for your ID is part of them trying to do their job to PROTECT LAW ABIDING CITIZENS, you could be keeping them from from finding the person they’re looking for. If you immediately refuse to cooperate, they think you may be hiding something. So they’re focusing on you instead of the person who may get away and come back to do harm to you or someone else. I have the utmost respect for police, firefighters, etc… They’re out to help the public… Not hurt them. If they need our help, we should help them. Not obstruct them.
“That was something you agreed with. But supposed he told you that he was looking for a lost puppy and asked for your ID. Would you give it to him?”
As I said, I would ask if there was a problem, if he said that he was looking for a lost puppy, that has NOTHING to do with ID, as such it is an inadequate example…
Gates could have ENDED it THREE separate times…
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by providing ID when asked after Crowly identified himself and hearing the circumstances of why he was there…
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When Crowley was leaving AFTER Gates finally provided ID, but instead followed Crowley outside
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After being warned multiple times he was being disorderly…
All three times, it was GATES who CHOSE to drag it out… As Crowley said - “Gates controlled the outcome”…
It was Gates ACTIONS that got him arrested… noone elses…
Phlemboy…
“The don’t put on their uniform and put their lives at risk just so they can see who they can hassle… They’re out to help the public… Not hurt them. If they need our help, we should help them. Not obstruct them.”
Well said… wouldn’t it have been nice if Gates had provided the same courtesy to Crowley… If you’ve listened to the tapes, Crowley is calm, cool and collected, and Gates is the one who is irrational…
If there weren’t any tapes, there is no doubt in my mind that Gates would have twisted this thing up in pretzels… That is WHY when the facts came to light, Gates’ threats of lawsuit and demand for an apology went… poof
To me, that spoke VOLUMES regarding who was telling the truth…
There are a lot of people that take up a profession of job to help people. I do real estate to provide good safe places for people to live in.
that is my point. To Gates it had no bearing on his ID. I didn’t say Gates was right, I said he was stupid. I also said the cop was stupid to not just leave.
You have to admit that Gates did end it. He asked the officer to leave. The officer had to get the last word (because his feeling were hurt) decided he was going to pull the old officer trick “could you step out here sir” Once Gates is outside he can be arrested for that old “catch-all” disorderly-conduct.
Bluemoon. You’re not putting your life on the line. You’re not protecting citizens by catching criminals. If you showed up at my house and asked for my ID I wouldn’t give it to you. You can’t draw the same paralell between you and the police and firefighters. If you showed up at my door and asked me for my ID, you wouldn’t get it for sure. Asking for an ID is part of doing their job. Just like you asking for ID from a potential tenant as part of your job. In my opinion and experience with police, the more cooperative you are, the easier it is for everyone. Perhaps we’re getting a little off the original topic. The whole incident would have been avoided if Gates just showed his ID and went on about his business. A similar thing actually happened to me about 10 yrs. ago. I locked myself out of my house. It was dark. I had to climb through an open window to get in. Within minutes, the cops were pounding on my door. I opened the door. The cops were initially pretty intimidating with their tone, but the forst the asked was for my ID. I gave it to them and explained the situation. I was actually very happy to see that someone cared enough to bother. The next day, my neighbor came over to aplogize. He couldn’t see it was me because it was dark. I just laughed and thanked him. I told him to feel free to do it again!
“There are a lot of people that take up a profession of job to help people. I do real estate to provide good safe places for people to live in.”
Yes, but when you leave for work, your chances are MUCH GREATER of coming home… Your profession has MUCH LESS risk associated with it… and yet, you STILL expect people to treat you politely…
“To Gates it had no bearing on his ID. I didn’t say Gates was right, I said he was stupid. I also said the cop was stupid to not just leave.”
As has been pointed out many times, Crowley WAS leaving until Gates took it out into public…
“You have to admit that Gates did end it. He asked the officer to leave.”
No, he did not… please show us where this is the case… show a published source on this, not a blog…
“The officer had to get the last word (because his feeling were hurt) decided he was going to pull the old officer trick “could you step out here sir” Once Gates is outside he can be arrested for that old “catch-all” disorderly-conduct”
Bluemoon06, nothing said will change your mind on this… the facts just don’t seem to matter… We’ll just have to “agree to disagree”…
I was watching an account on TV on Hardball and a black comiserator said he could NEVER imagine Gates, a distibguished professor, using the term “your mama”, and that it lacks all credibility, that is, until a video surfaced of Gates using that exact phrase… but you keep defending him…
Phlemboy…
"He couldn’t see it was me because it was dark. I just laughed and thanked him. I told him to feel free to do it again! "
So would I… somehow, the inconvenience of showing my ID pales in comparison to my house being robbed… Interestingly, being that Gates’ house was robbed before, I wonder if Gates put himself at more risk… If you were Gates’s neighbor, would you want to report ANYTHING at his address???
I wonder if he plans to move…
You also have to look at the fact that Gates is not just a professor but a professor of African American Studies. I the civil rights era, you have no credibility unless you have been discriminated against. Discrimination to the point of being arrested is like a zoology professor walking up on Sasquatch. He can write a book about this and instead of selling 100,000 copies (which you would expect just because of his Harvard position) He will sell over a million.
I don’t defend Gates. I don’t know why you think I am unless you are thinking zero sum. Either Gates is right or the cop is right. You can’t see how they could both be right or both wrong. You can’t see how the cop was wrong. (I never agree to disagree because I am never wrong so I must show you how I am right). I say that they are both wrong. The cop should have made it his business to leave without “winning”. It was not about winning or losing at that point. There was no crime so he should have left to go be useful instead of wasting tax payers dollars (his salary) booking this crippled old professor. The cop should have agreed to disagree.
“I the civil rights era, you have no credibility unless you have been discriminated against.”
You then have no credibility unless you’ve been a white police officer, who gave mouth-to-mouth resusitation to a black man, TAUGHT racial profiling classes for 5 years alongside a black man (who gave him the highest accolades) , and were supported 100% by your multi-racial fellow officers WHO WERE THERE on the scene… Not to mention that NONE of the citizens WHO WERE THEREE have disputed the cops account… and THEN be accused of being a racist…
"Either Gates is right or the cop is right. You can’t see how they could both be right or both wrong. "
I don’t think Crowley is wrong BECAUSE you have yet to cite a source for all your assertions on it… you assert a point, provide no back-up for it, other than your opinion/assumption…
I don’t think Crowley was wrong BECAUSE of the facts of the case… and the fact that Gates was threatening a lawsuit and DEMANDED an apology, both of which went poof when the facts and recordings came out… recordings, which BTW, SUPPORT the police report…
I don’t think Crowley was wrong BECAUSE the arrest was supported 100% by the multi-racial officers WHO WERE THERE.
I don’t think Crowley was wrong BECAUSE none of the citizens WHO WERE THERE have come forward and disputed the officers account of this…
You have yet to prove your case, from what I’ve seen, you just want to give Gates a pass on his actions that CAUSED to his arrest…
BECAUSE what he said was BACKED-UP BY OTHERS, I give Crowley, the benefit of the doubt… Gates gave MULTIPLE reasons to question his account of things, and as we see when he dropped talk of a lawsuit and apology, and was threatened by one from Crowley for defamation, it just gave credibility to Crowley… if you can’t see this… you never will…
Moral of the story… when asked to give your ID by the investigating officer, WHO HAS TOLD YOU, he is there investigating a robbery report by a neighbor, WHO IS OUTSIDE YOUR HOME, just give the ID, leave your racist comments and profiling of a white police officer (no accountability there, mind you) to yourself, and save EVERYONE time and effort…
I am talking about credibility in the African Amercian Studies department
If the cop was not wrong in arresting Gates, the charges would not have been dropped.
“I am talking about credibility in the African Amercian Studies department”
I misunderstood… sorry… uh-oh… two sorries on REICLUB in one day! :shocked
“If the cop was not wrong in arresting Gates, the charges would not have been dropped.”
Disorderly Conduct charges usually are… unless you really messed up… that said, you don’t believe that the politics of race and the President weighing in didn’t have alot to do with it?
What I am saying is that it is not an either or situation. This is not a zero sum situation where you have to choose that either the cop was wrong or Gates was wrong. I believe that they were both wrong. I think we all agree on Gates being stupid. What I am saying is that when the cop had the chance to go on to the next call (and really help the people of Cambridge) and he chose to arrest a crippled old professor and tie up his time with paperwork etc, he was stupid. There was enough stupid to go around.
To bring this back to real estate. Do you think that Gates will move? If he does will this incident make his house worth more or less?
“What I am saying is that it is not an either or situation.”
In this case, I disagree… Like I said, we’ll have to agree to disagree, as I don’t fault the cop in this instance… There was a small crowd gathering, and it was out in public… walking away while Gates is spouting racial accusations out in public only shows other how to intimidate cops and sets dangerous precedent… If Crowley left after being shouted down by Gates using false racial claims, Gates would have been successful in his intimidation attempts through false accusations of racial profiling… Remember, Gates tried to intimidate through false racial discrimination accusation AND social position… when the first didn’t work, he tried the second, and then went back to the first… Must make REAL victims of racial and social discrimination feel real good…
The “stupid” lies with Gates and Gates alone in this circumstance…
“Do you think that Gates will move? If he does will this incident make his house worth more or less?”
Not right away… He’s got to make money off the situation first… But I would be interested to know if a house that was robbed would be in demand…
The croud was cops. The cop would lose face in front of his brotheren?!?
He lost face anyway with the case being thrown out. You see how stupid thatwas?
“The croud was cops. The cop would lose face in front of his brotheren”
Bluemoon06, you are wrong again… read the police report…
The onloookers were the Cambridge AND Harvard Police (who BTW, did NOT dispute the arrest or events), Ms. Whalen (who made the call) and “at least SEVEN unidentified passer-by onlookers”…
So, between the police and the other eight (8) people, you were into DOUBLE-DIGITS… and NONE of them disputed the account…
“He lost face anyway with the case being thrown out.”
No, he showed there are consequences to you ACTIONS, and ENDED the Disorderly Conduct and disturbance …
“You see how stupid thatwas?”
Yes, Gates acted completely “stupid”… here we can agree… I totally DISagree that Crowley was acting “stupidly”… Based on the FACTS, that’s not going to change, so again, we will have to agree to disagree…
So what you are saying is that the police saving face in front of a few people is grounds for taking a crippled old professor to jail when there are real threats to life and limb running amok in the town? And you have to remember where he is. The people other than cops are university types. They are not impressed by tough cops. The cops are impressed by tough cops. This was for them.
I say that for every case that an officer gets dismissed he should have to pay a fine of $25. It is not enough to cause his wife and kids to go hungry but it will make him think twice before he performs a stupid arrest just to save face. He will have to decide if there is a crime here or does he want to risk $25.
I was on a jury last year. During jury selection questioning they asked us if we believed the word of a police officer because he was a police officer. There was this one guy who said that if a police said it was true no matter what it is. I remember thinking this has got to be the only guy in the world that thinks that way. But now I guess there are 2.