Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....

Random Ramblings
21

Basically, theres a fundamental disagreement here.

Me and Positive believe that the Government should obey laws that we all have to abide by(Not being able to take money for those who earn it without their permission). While mdhaas and bluemoon feel the Government has the right to take MY MONEY because they feel they can use that money for good reasons.

I find it a bit ridiculous that you guys dont think that is defined as “theft” but okay…

Using your guys’ logic…Why cant I go take $20 out of my neighbors car right now, If I go and donate it to Red Cross (a good organization, that money will help people!)??? If the government can do it… why cant I? hmm?

22

Maybe they’ll run healthcare as well as cash for clunkers :rolleyes

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Why cant I go take $20 out of my neighbors car right now, If I go and donate it to Red Cross (a good organization, that money will help people!)??? If the government can do it.. why cant I? hmm?

No one said that you couldn’t (unless your neighbor did) and what a nice gesture that would be! :beer

24

Bluemoon06,

“When you talk about socialized medicine to scare people that is disingenuous”

What would you call it then capitalism??? Free markets??? You need to educate yourself on the economic system of socialism… the more you do, the more it will makes sense to you… I don’t personally just throw around such a charge willy-nilly…

"Those people are to the man mentally ill. Reagan passed laws to close the asylums and now our quality of life is degraded. "

Bluemoon06, just as with Furnishedowner, you need to do a little reading on the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act and the ACLU… your statement above is incorrect… when you do read about it, it will make more sense to you…

“The sick will clog the streets like the mentally ill clog the streets today.”

This is a specious and ignorant statement… the sick, BY LAW, cannot be turned away from an emerigency room, WHETHER THEY HAVE INSURANCE OR NOT… it specifically states in the first paragraph below…

http://www.emtala.com/law/index.html

BTW, this law was passed in 1986, UNDER REAGAN…

To put it into perspective for you, my wife is a nurse at a womens hospital, and EVERYDAY women come in for a pregnancy test, that they could get for a couple of bucks… but instead, they get an ER bill (because they have to be evaluated) on top of the test, that they WILL NEVER PAY… She says the worst ones are the ones on Medicaid, because they don’t want to go to their regular doctor because they don’t want to pay a $3, yes that’s right THREE DOLLAR, co-pay!!! They are getting this insurance TRULY FOR FREE, and they don’t have the respect to pay $3 co-pay and schedule an appt., but would rather force EVERYONE ELSE to pay and get to be seen right away at an ER…

“But he really sounds soothing and smart doesn’t he? Reagan’s main accomplishment was that he made us comfortable with our prejudices.”

Back that up…

25

Mdhaas,

“Isn’t that what is happening now and WE pay for it anyhow?”

If we are paying for it anyhow, and it has been shown it will cost MORE to implement what Obama wants to… guess we don’t need it after all, yes? As a matter of fact, that would be quite unproductive, wouldn’t it?

“I don’t recall the Government calling it charity. I thought that it was managed health care. Meaning that someone has to be payed to manage it. I believe that it was you who called it charity.”

Actually I didn’t call it charity… Hoosier brought it up, then you referenced charity in the Bible.

The more that government TAKES in TAXATION from the citizenry, the LESS they have to help their fellow man… between the two, government is the most inefficient…

Actually, the law says he can’t… the nice gesture would be if he GAVE $20, not had it TAKEN from him to give to another…

26

Bluemoon06,

“You guys are too young to remember this BUT BEFORE REAGAN we didn’t have people at the intersections holding signs saying need money.”

Are you seriously going to argue that panhandlers were not around before Reagan??? Puh-lease…

27

This is exactly what I mean when I say it is important to know why things work. In this case it is important to know why you believe what you believe. You just used the fact that people use socialized medicine to justify why we don’t need socialized medicine. That is evidence that you don’t really know why you believe what you believe but that is why I am here. I will help you with that.

We are not actually talking about healthcare, we are talking about health insurance. The question is who pays for the healthcare that we get. The fact that the people that don’t have health insurance use emergency rooms is justification that we do need a public option. The problem to solve is that everybody is not covered by insurance. The solution is to provide a safety net that no one will fall below. That is the socialized part of it. Even you are for that. So why don’t you want to say that.

Now to the reason you believe what you believe is that Ronald Reagan made you comfortable with the fact that as long as you called yourself conservative then you were a good person no matter what you were doing. You were acting conservatively which literally means status quo. Conservative means don’t change anything. Conserve what we have, it is a philosophy built on fear. If you move you will end up losing something. It is based on zero sum thinking. It is like you are in a minefield. You can’t go anywhere. What Ronald Reagan got you to believe is that conservative meant prudent. That being said you could decide to act prejudicially and because you were a “conservative person” you were not bad, just conservative. That is how Ronald Reagan made us comfortable with our prejudices. He made you fear. That is why you believe what you believe.

What we had were panhandlers. When you talked to them they were people down on their luck and people that were just not that smart but they were all there. The ones now to the man are mentally ill. These are a different type of person on the street. Before Reagan they were picked up and taken care of in mental institutions. Now they litter the street. Whenever you see them thank Ronald Wilson Reagan

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"We are not actually talking about healthcare, we are talking about health insurance.

Up until recently, we were talking about healthcare, not health insurance…

“The question is who pays for the healthcare that we get. The fact that the people that don’t have health insurance use emergency rooms is justification that we do need a public option.”

Not if it costs us more money… which EVERY examination of this has shown that it does… Not to mention that people on Medicaid USE the emergency room, so they don’t HAVE TO schedule an appointment with a private doctor who accepts Medicaid. It is ABUSED everyday by the people WITH this insurance… The less you pay for something, the MORE you use it… Simple FACT of life…

“The problem to solve is that everybody is not covered by insurance.”

This problem is ALREADY solved… noone can be turned away for healthcare at the hospital…

“The solution is to provide a safety net that no one will fall below.”

The safety net is ALREADY there… again, they cannot turn you away for care… On top of this, when you call to make arrangements to pay (assuming they would even do this), the hospital is REQUIRED to accept what you can pay…

“That is the socialized part of it. Even you are for that. So why don’t you want to say that.” & “You just used the fact that people use socialized medicine to justify why we don’t need socialized medicine.”

No, that is the SUBSIDIZED part… by going single-payer, or putting us on the path to single-payer, THAT is socialized healthcare… MEANING the GOVERNMENT makes the decisions…

Once you REMOVE the government as referee between the insurance company and you, THEY BECOME the problem and you have noone to referee… Just ask the THOUSANDS of people who come to the USA for healthcare each year… Does this not tell you anything???

Not to mention that this takes away the CHOICE of whether you want insurance or not…

29

“Now to the reason you believe what you believe is that Ronald Reagan made you comfortable with the fact that as long as you called yourself conservative then you were a good person no matter what you were doing. You were acting conservatively which literally means status quo. Conservative means don’t change anything.”

This is a faulty understanding of Conservative political ideology…

“Conserve what we have, it is a philosophy built on fear.”

So we agree, global warming is based on fear… :beer

“It is based on zero sum thinking.”

No, this is the liberal mindset… you take from the rich to give to the poor, BECAUSE you believe there is a limited amount of american pie, and the “rich” have too much… conservatives believe in an EVER-EXPANDING pie, but the GOVERNMENT limits the pan size…

“It is like you are in a minefield. You can’t go anywhere. What Ronald Reagan got you to believe is that conservative meant prudent.”

No, Reagan DEMONSTRATED how GOVERNMNENT IS THE PROBLEM… Regan cut taxes ACROSS the board, REVENUES to the government DRAMATICALLY INCREASED… but the GOVERNMENT SPENT IT… Instead of paying down our debt with it… THEY found ways, BOTH PARTIES, to WASTE it… this continues to this day… which is WHY an ever-expanding government is the problem…

“That being said you could decide to act prejudicially and because you were a “conservative person” you were not bad, just conservative.”

So, you are saying I am prejucial being a conservative, without at the same time recognizing your prejudice for thinking so??? :rolleyes

“That is how Ronald Reagan made us comfortable with our prejudices. He made you fear. That is why you believe what you believe.”

No, I believe what I believe, BECAUSE I read history, and we are watching happen to our country EXACTLY what our FOUNDING FATHERS WARNED against… simple as that…

You are agreeing with a pholosophy that people DIED to protect us from…

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“What we had were panhandlers. When you talked to them they were people down on their luck and people that were just not that smart but they were all there.”

So, it is your assertion that all homeless prior to Reagan were “all there” and after, not so much…

“The ones now to the man are mentally ill.”

So now all homeless people are mentally ill to the man? If this is your view, then you don’t have much interaction with the homeless…

“These are a different type of person on the street. Before Reagan they were picked up and taken care of in mental institutions.”

You obvioiusly didn’t read the act or about the ACLU… one of the reasons FOR this act, was that the people you said Pre-Reagan were not mentally ill, were being picked up and institutionalized against their will…

“Now they litter the street. Whenever you see them thank Ronald Wilson Reagan”

This is BOGUS…

31

All this is saying is that there is no problem. This again proves my point that conservative means status quo.

I agree that until recently we were not just talking about health insurance. They did a terrible job of defining the problem. I have always said that we don’t have healthcare we have sick care. If we want to talk about healthcare there is a lot more to talk about than who pays for what.

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No Global warming is based on science. The reaction to the problem to do nothing (status quo) is conservative.

What reagan did is like asking your boss for a reduction in your wage of $1.00 and then taking out credit card offers of $1000/month and cashing them in. You can then say your income went up by $1000/month because you took a $1.00 pay cut. The debt trippled under Reagan.

You can’t drive down the street looking in the rear view mirror. You use the past to help you navigate where you go in the future, but you can’t be scared. You must move forward.

33

Bluemoon06,

"All this is saying is that there is no problem. This again proves my point that conservative means status quo. "

If you are going to argue that the above is “status quo” making it “conservative”, by your flawed limited definition of conservative political philosphy, you are not basing what you are arguing on ANY basis… you DO realize this, right?

“I agree that until recently we were not just talking about health insurance.”

Yes, so the argument FOR it is made additionally false… as is the mythical cost “savings” and “revenue-neutral” position… how many more things needs to be made false, before we see that government is NOT the answer, but the referee of the solution… If government is the answer, the referee is removed from the game…

“They did a terrible job of defining the problem.”

Even MORE of a reason to trust them with it… :rolleyes Gives me the warm willies…

“I have always said that we don’t have healthcare we have sick care.”

No, preventative care and palative care are part of the equation… but you should realize that 5% of the population consumes approximately 50% of the care, and that is those 65 and older…

“If we want to talk about healthcare there is a lot more to talk about than who pays for what.”

Who pays for what is the basis of it… without it, it doesn’t really matter now, does it?!..

34

Yes all this is true. The really I like you is that you, unlike most conservatives, seem to be intellectually curious. As you can tell I always talk to the bums. I don’t always give them money but when they come to my window I always talk to them about their story. I find that they went from trying to get by in the 1970’s to being just plain bonkers today.

35

Maybe I am missing something here. What does conservative mean if it does not mean status quo? Give me the conservative path forward (oxymoron)

I agree it should be but it is not.

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“No Global warming is based on science. The reaction to the problem to do nothing (status quo) is conservative.”

LOL… Based on science??? OK, what is proved and peer-studied proved? See, there is a BIG distinction…

“What reagan did is like asking your boss for a reduction in your wage of $1.00 and then taking out credit card offers of $1000/month and cashing them in. You can then say your income went up by $1000/month because you took a $1.00 pay cut. The debt trippled under Reagan.”

Reagan could NOT write a check AT ALL… CONGRESS writes the checks, and the President can do NOTHING without Congress… And it was a Dem majority at the time… Doesn’t matter though which party it was… point was, the GOVERNMENT doubled it’s revenue WHILE cutting taxes ACROSS THE BOARD… the fact that they could not MANAGE such an INCREASE in TAX REVENUE to even pay down the national debt SHOWS PROOF-POSITIVE they are NOT capable of handling 1/6th of the economy… Graph from house.gov… it is from date from the IRS and JEC…

http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/fig-1.gif

As you can see, the INCREASED TAX REVENUE burden was covered mostly by the top 10% WHILE cutting taxes…

On top of all this… IT’S NOT THEIR MONEY!!! And the more you give it to them, the MORE THEY WANT…

37

You see this is the thing about being conservative or not. There are programs and then there are principles. Principles are values that never change. They are the basic beliefs that were life put into you. That could be from your parents or Sunday school or later in life. They say a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged. But they are your base. Given that base the program is how we get from where we are going. Programs change based on the situation. For example the principle is that Blacks (or Negros or Afro Americans or whatever the term of the day was) should be treated fairly. In the 1960 separate but equal was unarguably the correct program. Later that ended up being integration, followed by quotas and affirmative. Now we have post racial. You judge a person by their character. Both liberals and conservatives belie the same principle. The rub is in what program should be used. Conservatives tend to be frozen for a solution.

With health insurance everybody has the principle that no one should be denied health care because he can’t get it paid for. What we disagree on is the program to get that accomplished. The problem with conservatives is that just like with global warming, they want to drag the anchor and do nothing and maybe it will work itself out.

I can’t think of any principle in which the conservative program results in a solution to the principle discussed.

38

Using that logic, Reagan didn’t even do the tax cuts. Congress did it all. All Reagan did was just sat there and ate jelly beans while the congress engineered this whole thing…I guess doing nothing really does work. If you sit there long enough the liberals will come along and fix your problem.

39

"Using that logic, Reagan didn’t even do the tax cuts. Congress did it all. "

Actually no… Reagan set the agenda after trouncing Carter… He had a true mandate with 91% of the electoral votes… after the Rep’s ADDING 34 seats and the Dems LOSING 35 seats, he had the will of the people on his side… contrast that with Obama’s 68% of electoral votes, and Dem’s taking control of Congress, and look how much Obama has squandered… The will of the people is AGAINST him and the Dem’s on this…

“With health insurance everybody has the principle that no one should be denied health care because he can’t get it paid for.”

And herein lies one of the main philisophical disagreements… I do not believe people should be denied healthcare, but I also do not believe that means that they don’t have to pay for it… If they are going to go their lifetime NOT paying for it, there should be trade-offs and inconveniences… If not, why wouldn’t EVERYBODY do it??? And THAT, makes our country WEAKER, not STRONGER…

“What we disagree on is the program to get that accomplished. The problem with conservatives is that just like with global warming, they want to drag the anchor and do nothing and maybe it will work itself out.”

The problem with liberals is that they look to the government BEFORE looking to themselves… Just look at Global Warming (AGW)… it has NOT been proven, but liberals want to give government MORE MONEY in the form of INCREASED TAXES in Cap and Tax (trade), which will afffect EVERYTHING across the board for ALL income levels… Common sense would dictate that we first PROVE that which we are trying to correct… You just don’t start giving your kid ANY type of medicine without first CONFIRMING what the problem is…

Look at healthcare… liberals are willing to give 1/6th of the economy over to the government, EVEN THOUGH, the government has PROVEN, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT, that they are incapable of handling this issue… Before we would even THINK of considering doing that, how about they FIX what they’ve ALREADY screwed-up - Medicaid, Medicare, IHS (Indian Health Service), Social Security, etc… NONE OF WHICH WORKED AS PLANNED and COST BILLIONS MORE than they projected… that kind of track record does NOT get you trusted with more of the people’s money… ESPECIALLY, when it gives you more POWER OVER the people…

This is EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers warned against…

That would be like your accountant getting your taxes wrong 5 years in a row, and costing you 10’s of thousands of dollars, and then trusting him with your taxes again… some people would call that person who would trust that accountant just plain stupid…

40

Bluemoon06,

I guess what it all boils down to is I believe in the individual and you believe in the government… IMHO, the government CAUSES more problems than it solves, and the more you GIVE the government CONTROL over your life, the LESS free you are…