Rehab or Rental....Your Preference?

I know this debate has surfaced a few times before…but I thought I’d bring it up again to get peoples opinions on what path they prefer to take with regard to profitting in REI…(rehab or rental).

Rehab…(or commonly known as flipping).

or

Rental…(holding for long term with tenants providing cash flow and paydown of note)

Actually, if there are other distinctive approaches besides these, I’d appreciate hearing about them.

I’ve (internally) debated the two above quite a bit…and can see pluses and minuses for each…but would like to hear from others.

Here’s my short take on their + and -…

Rehab:
-Being short term flip…get hit hard with taxes
-No real long term leverage…thus, no real accumulation, (control), of long term wealth using OPM
-Like a job…you have to punch the clock after each sale and start again
+No hassles with tenants
+Not as hard to find deals…as with cashflowing a rental

Rental:
-Hassles with tenants
-Difficulty in finding cash flow properties
+Nice accumulation of wealth, (assets), over the long run using OPM, (bank or owner finance inititally…then tenants over long haul)
+More passive and less labor intensive than constantly rehabbing

I know these are brief snapshots…am really hoping to get feedback from those that have been in it for awhile…especially about why a certain path has been very good for them.

Thanks very much,
-Mike

 I like to mix it up..You know what they say, DOnt keep all your eggs in 1 basket..

I think a good effective plan is to try and do 1 rehab every 2 or 3 months. And to buy at least 1 rental property every 2 months as well. Easily you can buy 12-16properties a yr, and hold about 6-8 of them.

Rehabbing allows you to make some quick cash. With the cash., it becomes easier to acquire longterm hold properties, and grab foreclosures on the market. many investors, including myself are tucking dollars away for the foreclosure market coming up.

Rentals are good if you can cashflow them, but again, you need cash for emergencies which flipping helps with. I personally hate tennants and try to lease option out the places rather then a rental. This way I do not have to deal with basic maintance fees or cutting the grass, phone calls about a backedup toliet,etc…

So you forgot to talk about Lease Options. Plus L/O give you some upfront cash to play with. If you can do 5 L/O a yr and get about 5K-10K a deal, thats 25-50K a yr, plus wth a L/O you can command a higher rental rate to create cashflow and give a credit back at closing, or make it a NNN lease.

Having been in real estate investing for some 28 years I’ve met many investors who swear by one method or another. Those who have been the most successful long term typically have built their long term wealth through buy/hold real estate but many have used shorter term investments to boost their yields and to help them build a portfolio early on that cash flows well. I’ll provide some thoughts on this topic in the hope of encouraging additional discussion, and I beg patience as my thoughts may be somewhat scattered as I leisurely let them fly.

It really depends on WHY you’re in real estate investing to begin with. Unfortunately, many never ask themselves this question and just dive into real estate investing with the goal of getting wealthy. Based on my observations, most who dive in with simply the money aspect in mind fail to make it long term. Real estate investing can be tricky, is full of unknowns, involves what is to most a lot of money, and should be taken seriously. To truly realize powerful financial outcomes requires a certain persistence and having a long term vision and goal that you’re reaching for will help you in staying with it long enough to learn what you need to learn to become truly successful at it long term. So, knowing why you’re in it is the absolute first key, and that goal will affect your decision as to what the best approach you should take is. And throw out the “get rich quick” thought. Yes, you can get lucky or get a good deal early on and make a quick $100,000 but whereas that might seem like a lot of money, that amount can be taken away in bad deals so fast it’ll make your head swim if you let it go to your head as I have seen it happen to so many who thought their first few good deals were all there is. Everyone that invests in real estate for the long haul is going to have a few that don’t go right too, and that’s where the men are separated from the boys (and women from the girls).

Another important thing to consider is that you must gradually learn – and I mean really learn, by doing, not just by reading or attending seminars. And that takes time. So pick one type of investing to begin with to start learning the ropes and then grow from there.

If your main driving goal is to eventually have a strong passive income, then one of your main long term goals may be to build a good portfolio of quality rental property in up and coming areas, or areas that are stable and with good demand. You may gradually upsize your inventory as you grow, and you can decide whether you want residential, commercial, or a combination of both – these decisions are again impacted by WHY you’re really looking to invest in real estate. The buy/hold game is not something you should enter into lightly, and it is very important to have enough reserves to account for the maintenance and other issues that arise. I suggest when just entering that you manage a property yourself, but do so with a fee to cover management built into your proforma so that as you grow you can delegate this function to someone else while you focus on the higher leverage activities necessary to help you grow your long term wealth.

Many beginners jump into the buy/hold game too quickly and they often get wiped out as a result. The rule of thumb I use is that the new investor should have a minimum of six months living expenses on hand personally in liquid assets, and they should have at least $3000 of liquid cash on reserve in their company for each $100,000 investment they make. This is a bare minimum too, and assumes the property they’re investing in is in really good condition – if it is not the money needs to built into the financing up front to get it in good condition or they need to have the money to fix it up and THEN have the minimum reserve left. You could ask 100 experienced investors and all would give you a different minimum reserves number, and it may depend on where you’re at and what type of property, but the key point is the investor MUST have some reserves or availability of getting reserves quickly (like in 24 hours) if an issue were to arise. You would not believe how many I’ve seen who didn’t listen to this and paid the price.

Over the years I have built a solid portfolio of long term rentals, but I still invest in short term investments as well. My reasons for this are varied, and by sharing a few of these reasons perhaps it will provide some food for thought. I’ll focus on residential although I do take advantage of short term commercial opps as they arise.

My company (I do everything through corporations and LLCs, depending on the type of investment, etc) renovates numerous single family homes each year. Some reasons are: (a) my life mission is to help others; we take older property and rebuild it to current standards, with improved floorplans, modern insulation, systems, etc. and then we work with a good agent and credit counselor to help people who never dreamed they could own a home realize their dream. Many many tears of joy have been shed on my shoulder and it is a positively rewarding experience. (b) we renovate homes to bring neighborhoods back. Often we own multi-family property (we invest in multi-family for our long term portfolio) in the same neighborhoods and as they say all boats rise with the rising tide (as the neighborhood improves through a higher homeowner / renter ratio rents typically increase until they reach full market levels and that brings our property values up as well) (c) we keep a decent inventory of single family houses in our inventory (approx 100 at any given time) to balance our portfolio mix. Single family homes are easier to sell and tend to have slightly higher appreciation numbers than multi-family in the markets where we invest. We end up selling most of our single families in 5 to 10 years, often to good tenants, and then we roll the profits into more investments. We buy single families from individual homeowners but more often than not we buy multiple properties at a time from tired investors or investors that got in over their head and are losing their shirts. Usually we end up rehabbing a good number of these, either minor or major rehab, and we sell some and keep some as a part of the aforementioned portfolio strategy.

The rehabbing of real estate, single family homes or multifamily or commercial, is something to be entered into carefully. The investor should find someone who has done it and learn from them, if possible, and if not should learn as much as possible by watching home improvement TV shows, buying materials from knowledgeable investors, reading books, etc. and should start with a light rehab (paint, carpet, new fixtures, etc) but not a full “gut” rehab. Ease into the game as you will learn lessons that can only be properly taught by getting a little dirty in the trenches.

Then there are the strategies you can use for generating quick hits of cash, which are often good for the new investor who needs to build a few reserves before really getting in the trenches. These include flips, typically by assigning one’s purchase contract and double closes where one takes title and at the same time resells the property. I’ve done hundreds of assignments of contract, dozens of double closes, and even two triple closes. All are valid strategies.

Regarding assignments of contract, there is one very very important point that must be understood by the investor. First, the investor is NOT really an investor in the typical sense and must understand this. The investor is NOT buying and selling real estate. The investor is agreeing to buy real estate, is obtaining certain rights which I believe are in most states considered personal property, not real property, and is then reselling those rights (and must make sure the contract entered into does not prohibit the resale thereof). He or she is NOT selling real estate but rather personal property – rights to buy real estate under certain terms. If the investor does not keep this in mind and becomes a middle man between the original seller and the end buyer, then the investor is now engaging in what is known as “agency” and must be, in all states I am aware of in the US, licensed by the state to do so, or the investor may be breaking the law. Assignments are a good way, IF PROPERLY ENGAGED IN, to make some small quick hits, but they are NOT going to make you wealthy unless you really work it and it’s still a linear income stream and includes little or no leverage (leverage being the underlying fundamental principle behind most wealth creation).

Double closes are good when you may want a larger markup than would be viewed favorably by the end buyer on assignment. But they must be practiced with FULL DISCLOSURE. Too many reasons to go into here as to why. They are a little tricky and must be handled with care and the attorney closing the deal (or title company in certain states) must be familiar with them. Here the investor is an investor but for only a short time.

Taxes are an important part of investing and one must always weigh the benefits of cashing out and taking the tax hit versus rolling profits forward thru 1031 exchanges. Too complex to go into but once you really get in the game and start building your assets, you’ll need to learn the ropes about this.

I follow a strategy blending long term buy/hold with short term investments, even a few assignments and immediate flips (double closes) from time to time. These boost the growth rate of my long term portfolio, allow me to let all my rents go back to retiring debt on the long term portfolio (to a point when I “roll equity up” to keep a certain amount of leverage in place) and allow me to enjoy some of the profits along the way.

I hope this has been insightful and that it generates more discussion. Best of luck in your investing.

BTW…there is a much better method to keep your profits on flips without using a 1031 exchange. It has to do with how you set up your corp and using 2 companies for each property. I have been doing this for over 4yrs and reduce my captial gains taxs by more than 80% a yr. Plus I get my money today, not when i finally decide to sell a property in a 1031 without doing another one…

I use multiple entities and have joint ventures between entitites from time to time, but am curious to learn more about your method. One can never learn it all.

Ron: I just posted this elsewhere on the board when someone asked about Nevada LLC…so I am cutting and pasting it ok…

I live in Fl and have my corp set up in NV. How you want to do it is, set up 2 corps both LLC taxed as a C-Corp.

You have a holding company to buy sell and hold. All properties get QCD to it after you buy.

The you have a mgmt company which manages properties and you can use this company for your expenses (car payments, cellphone, internet, ins,travel expenses, etc)

When you sell a house in your Holding Co, you will have a profit (hopefully). You will then have your mgmt co bill your holding company a mgmt fee equal to the profit.

The holding co pays no taxes since it made no money.
The mgmt co can do 2 things. It can pay you as an employee and you pay regular taxes on the income to yourself (state taxes included since your in CA) or just let the mgmt co pay taxes based on a LLC rate which is 15% I believe. Keep in mind your income in the mgmt co is for services rendered , not capital gains on sales of real estate. You also will have deductions so the money it earns will be less. You can also create a SEP IRA for some additional saving and have your mgmt company fund it from its profits.

I live in FL, no state tax so I pay myself whatever the mgmt co has made after my personal expenses and pay no tax in either corp. Instead I just pay regular income tax. This reduces the typical tax bill by about 80%.

Things to know about NV. Its the only state does not share information with the IRS for income purpose. You can name your officers John Smith if you want. Your name only appears on 1 document and its for your resident agent to create the company. When someone checks out your company name, they will not know you own the company if you do not put your name on it. Because the IRS has such limited information on the corp, this allows for greater tax benefits to you. If you do not pay yourself a personal income, you wont pay state taxes in CA on the real estate i believe…

My CPA in Fl does these corp set up. He actually speaks nationally about them and charged $1010 per corp to set up and of course does the taxes for them. I think its $160 per corp. Keep in mind, the price is high, but competive to many. He knows the system and uses it himself for over 5yrs. If you like his number, let me know. His email is CertifiedTaxExperts@msn.com

just tell him your interested in his NV corporation. he even sells CDs he made talking about them and books on the subject. it provides strong asset protection as well.

His name is William Tyler…

I recommend you contact him, its a free call or email…

Andrew

YRush2000…do tell!

disregard, last post…I had not refreshed my computer and didn’t see your answer to Mr. Pate.

It does sound very interesting!

Mark

Excellent post Ron. I definately hope to see more of your posts in the future.

yrush,

far-be-it for me to judge, but that sounds really shady.

if you said your CPA friend was doing it for 15 years or more, then i’d be more apt to feel comfortable. just my personal opinion.

to me, it sounds like that scenario is much like evading taxes.

of course, i know that many business owners do not attach their name to their corp - they set up another entity and have that entity purchase shares from another. i’m learning the basics. that’s pretty much what you describe, except you’re using the other entity to charge the other and have each as seperate entities so one “drains” money from the other, but ends up putting it in the same place - in your pocket.

so the holding company, essentially, takes a loss - you benefit.

the service company, makes a profit and pays less taxes - simple sales tax and also i presume claims all losses on taxes - you benefit.

wow. i would definitely consider that one form of evasion - not for me.

but sounds sweet though.

Ron,

tell me how CASH plays a part in your businesses. i would presume that you’re not going around doing no money down, seller seconds, tax bond secured prom notes, land contracts…the whole bit.

good old CASH to purchase…agreements.

you talk about leverage, it’s the key to rei, but come on, you have to have some good old smelly greenbacks in the bank to use leverage comfortably. i think you wrote this in your post, but i’m just reiterating it.

TMGG

The reason he has been doing it for about 7yrs is b/c thats how long he has been investing in real estate himself. When he completed his first deal and realized how much went to Uncle Sam, he started to perfect a method to help lower his tax shelter. In fact, this method is also widly used with foreign investors who play the stockmarket (day trading). You essential using 2 corps and do all your buying and selling in and one and mgmt in another so they avoid capital gains since they are constantlly selling stocks on a weekly basis…

Now NV, does not require your name on your LLC…only the resident agent needs the name on the filing of corp docs. It is done for protection. IRS is not allowed to get the information. Is it illegal, NOPE…NV set there rules and the IRS has to abide by them. Remember where the mob set up shop in the days, LV…all the casinos…

Now many large corp also by businesses that loose money just to ofset taxes as well. It is not illegal, its business. I also generally pay myself a salary throughout the yr . plus my MGMT CO invest into my SEP IRA, pays for my Life Insurance, and medical ins. Where does it get the money, from my holding co. sales…

But before anyone says its shady, illegal or unethical, its best to talk to the horses mouth on what your doing. Ask the question…tell them you feel its shady and dont want to goto jail for tax evasion…see what the responnse is… Merely finding loopholes or creative ways to ofset your tax bill is not illegal, its something we have been doing for 40+yrs…

yrush,

it appears that people like yourself and Ron (in this post) and several others on this board are on a different playing field. you’ve all been in the business for several years.

surely, you did not start out this way. many of the people visiting these boards, myself included, have never done anything like this. it’s undiscovered country.

and when you talk about your corp or your LLC, i presume you have partners of sorts, or at least you worked with someone to show you the ropes…am i mistaken?

in your corp - you own shares of this company?

in your LLC, you are a member with a percentage of interest in the company, based on your contribution.

?

many of these guys, just want to do a deal and start earning “cash flow” and building their “net worth”. With guys like sheets and others, who make it seem so much easier than it actually is, clearly what you describe is not “easy” to a newcomer. i’m sure it’s easy for you and makes perfect, crystal clear sense.

the problem is when you watch the carleton sheets tapes - there are “Investors” on those tapes that talk about buying their first investment property within 30 days!!! and many talk about being up and running in less than 60 days - with “net worth” over 1 million in less than 6 months!!

i borrowed the tapes from a friend of mine who paid the 5000 to have a “personal coach”…

that’s the mentality you face on here. i like what you are talking about. i’m going to research the comparisons between just setting up a corp here in NY vs. NV for an upcoming business venture (not real estate related).

anyway, thanks for the info.

TMGG

Actually before i got involved in REI, i read about it for about 1yr before doing my 1st deal. But I started out pretty much in the begining going full force. I have the mentality thats I will just walk on the window ledge and if i fall, I fall, but if I can make it around the whole building, there will be a big surpise for me at the end.

As for the Sheets thing. Its so old and outdated, he makes money off the tapes, thats all. The people with Networth of 1mil or more. Well they are doing there network the wrong way, trust me. Its all on paper and generally they are mentioning how much the property is worth, not assets-liablilties=networth basis. This I feel strong about.

A long time ago, i saw the sheets program he send out, it was garbage. REI is all about leverage and networking with others. Attend local REIA meetings and network. That is how I got started. This was the most important thing to me. Then call the WE BUY GUYS and tell them you are new to the business and looking for some help. Offer to buy them a lunch and just sit and talk for about 1hr or more. About 50% of them will talk with you. Your not a threat to them, infact your an associate now. No one can do all the deals they come accross and many flip them, some even for nothing to others in the local area.

Look for people to partner up with on deals. I lend my credit all the time for deals with a pool of investors. All I do is sign the mortgage, nothing else. No worries on payments, rehabs or resell… My last deal with a new partner…In May 06 I meet him thru is son-in-law. He had a deal needed someone to finance. We did 100% financing. I put down the $5,000 deposit for the home. We closed end of May. At closing we got back a check for 65K. I got my 5K back in less than 3weeks. Tennant rented house for 2weeks to get moved out. Took 1month to rehab, his partner does rehab work, his wife interior designer. His daughther is realtor and excellend. Last Fri she did an open house for realtors only to see the house. 20 local realtors came by and later that day 3 realtors brought clients. Sunday we got an offer. THis monday we signed the offer and aggreed and it will close since they are putting down 50%…

Here are numbers… 465K purchase (including 65K back), rehab 30K, 2 mortgage payments for 8600. Total investment 438600. Sale price is 694,500
Commission paid and closing cost credit = $55650. SO 694,500-55650=638,850
Net sale of 638,850- 438600=200,250. Our closing cost fees will be less than $5000 we know…So our profit is about 195,000. My share is 50%…So I will make a profit of 97,500. Not bad for 2 1/2months of doing nothing b/c I talked to this guy for about 20mins and liked what he did and could help him. I put in less than 1hr of time into this deal including going to closing. And good thing is, i use my corp setup to save on taxes. Even though we are both on title, i Quit Claim deed my share to my Holding Co. so I do not have to worry about taxes. We do not setup a corp together, no need. He takes his share and I have my share.

So moral here is go out and network with others in your area. Forget the programs you see, those people on the phone make $8/hr trying to help you. Come on now…find someone serious that can help you locally in the business…you will find it… Hands on experience is the best…no book will teach you how to have common sense in this business…

My company still employs leverage to the extent possible, and when it makes sense to do so, though we do more often than not put 20% down on new investments. Occaisionally a quick turn comes up that we have to buy fast and then reselll, and since it’s not worth the trouble to get a loan we pay cash straight out (after due diligence of course). It does make it easier. But you have to get started to build up unless you have cash from other sources. We watch our first year ROI and our ROE (return on equity) to ensure we are getting our minimum yield target on our equity as well as our first year returns on new investments. Later in life after we’re to a certain goal we’ll start reducing leverage to boost cash flow yields eventually owning free and clear our long term portfolio. The compound interest formula works with real estate like anything else. What many forget is to apply their equity yields as well as their cash investment yields when calculating their overall returns.

Regarding the use of LLC’s and Corp’s, there are numerous ways to use these entities to assist in minimizing the tax impact of investment income. A good, competent tax advisor and corporate attorney are essential on your team of advisors when you really get into and start running. We also do all business in a corporate entity to help with liabililty protection, an especially important concern in today’s litigation-happy society. If you’re in business for real, it’s not of question of “will you get sued” it’s more a question of when. And remember, being sued doesn’t mean you did anything wrong. It could be a case of someone else wanting something for nothing.

Regarding just getting started, Yrush’s advise on finding a competent and experienced investor to team up with in some fashion is sound.

Remember if you ever team up with someone and you co-sign a note (or any other legal obligation) to be CAREFUL. Likewise if you go into partnership with someone to leverage their strengths be very careful and go in with eyes wide open. It is not a trivial matter and is not something to be engaged in lightly, but it is for the beginner a way to hit the ground running at a little faster pace, and for the experienced a way to leverage others in a win-win way to boost yields.

Good luck with your investing endeavors.