RE Investing Plan

Hi all,

I have about $90K equity in a duplex in upstate NY. Property taxes are reassessed every 2 yrs and there is no way the rents can keep up.

I am considering rolling over my profit (1031 exchange) into a unit I can eventually retire to. I was looking at ocean front condos but the incomes don’t come close to covering the mortgage and owner’s association fees. My job situation is tenious and I can’t handle a negative cash flow.

Can anyone offer advise on a good real estate investment plan considering that I would like to avoid capital gains on my current duplex and work towards a 2nd home to retire to? Maybe a single unit in a less expensive location with a positive cash flow. I would also appreciate any advise on out of town RE purchases.

Thanks,
jt

If your real estate investment goal is to own your retirement home free and clear by the time you are ready for retirement, then you can do it.

You own a duplex but don’t say if you are living in one half or both halves are rental units. If both are rentals with a negative cash flow, then sell the property and 1031 exchange into something else that generates a positive cash flow. Does not have to be a property you will retire to, yet; just has to cash flow.

If you are living in one half, then move out. Buy or rent something inexpensive to live in and make your property self sustaining by renting out both sides of the duplex.

You don’t say what location you want to retire to, nor how close you are to retirement. Rental property ownership is a slow road to wealth that eventually turns into free and clear ownership. If your retirement is on a distant horizon, you can get there with rental property.

I suggest you rethink your goal. Why do you want a free and clear home as your goal? What about your retirement cost of living. Shouldn’t your goal be to have your investments and pension generate all the income you need to maintain your retirement lifestyle? You don’t need a free and clear home if you have enough income to cover your retirement cost of living.

Perhaps the members of this board can come up with more specific suggestions if we knew how much time you have until retirement and what age you will be when you get there.

john,

just to give you an idea of my “retirement plan” - i’m 34. i plan to be “retired” by 45.

i think Dave is totally on target (as usual).

more info is needed here. is the unit you’re referring to cash flowing now?

and the 90k equity - is this based on what the market will bear at this time, meaning, if you put it up for sale now, could you sell it for the 90k profit in say…less than six months? or is the 90k equity - “appraised value”.

alot of people, including many of my friends and family worry alot about “paying down their mortgage”…meanwhile they take out HELOC’s and “pay off their debts” and put themselves further in debt.

anyhow, say you’ve got a house. you have 90k equity. say you’ve got a loan for a boat, a car and some miscellaneous credit cards…say totaling 50k…and just say $650 a month payments all together.

now you’ve got this 90k equity…you take it out and buy 5 cash flowing rentals, putting down 10k each and leaving the other 40k to manage your business. you buy them all at below market prices so you have equity positions in each of these rentals. each of them CASH FLOWS for 200 a month after ALL EXPENSES…

that’s 1000 bucks - 650 = 350 bucks left over every month. you keep your current debts and create more debts…but these other debts are good debts as opposed to bad debts. the good debts actually put money into your pocket, the bad take it out.

now compare that scenario with taking the 90k, paying off the 50k in car, boat and credit card debt and what do you have?

90k in debt with NO MONEY COMING IN.

now this is all relative to where you invest and how you invest it.

your real estate investing plan depends on YOU and your preferences and life circumstances.

the above rental scenario is easier said than done…but if MANY MANY others are doing it, why not you?

keep in touch!

Dave and TMCG,

Thanks for your suggestions.

I would like to move/retire to a warmer climate (SC, NC, Virginia, etc.) for for the winter months before I am 62 (in 9 yrs). The duplex I have is paid off and both apts. are rented. With no mortgage it has a cash flow but the taxes in NY are reappraised every 2 yrs and eat into the cash flow. The $90K is my estimate of what I could pull out of it reasonably.

My goals were to find the best way to avoid the capitol gains (about $50K) on the duplex and work towards a 2nd home to retire to. I was hoping for that ‘slow road to wealth and free and clear ownership’ but a look at vacation rentals showed me large negative cash flows.

I’m just confused on the best way to leverage the equity I have in the duplex.

John

John,

you only pay capital gains if you sell it.

if you refinanced it, for whatever amount that you can take on a mortgage and still have the property cash flowing - you don’t pay cap gains, because you didn’t sell it.

i might be misunderstanding your last comments because i’m sure you know this. if not, then that info might help you make some decisions.

taxes are OUT OF CONTROL in NY. it’s insane.

John,

How much recurring income will you need in retirement to maintain your lifestyle? Will $60K per year be enough? If so, how much of that will come from your pension and social security? At least half?

If so, then starting at age 62, you would need to fund your retirement at least another 30 years. Just multiplying $30K by 30 suggests that you will spend $900K more than your pension and social security income over your retirement lifetime.

So now, by my reasoning, your goal is to “retire” at age 62 with $30K in recurring, annual investment income. If you deposit $866,991.20 in the bank at just 3% annual interest, you will have enough interest income for this amount to provide you with a $30K income for 30 years (assuming you make equal withdrawals of $2500 at the end of each month).

So for now, if $30K is your lifestyle need, you might say you are ready to retire at age 62 if you have $866,991.20 in the bank when you begin your retirement. If you can do this, you have attained your goal which will allow you to retire for the next 30 years beginning at age 62. For most, two seven letter words define the extent of the financial planning done to amass that amount of money – inherit and lottery. Since the odds of winning a high dollar lottery are near astronomical, most fall back on inheritance. Do you have any rich relatives who might leave you a large sum of money by the time you are ready to retire?

Instead of starting with some large sum of money in the bank, you could just acquire assets that generate at least $30K in recurring income each year. Focusing only on real estate for now, how many rental properties will you need to generate $30K in annual cash flow?

If a typical rental property will generate a positive cash flow of $125 per month, then you will need to have acquired 20 properties generating this income by age 62. They don’t have to be free and clear, they just have to have at least $125 monthly cash flow. If you set your sights on a higher cash flow, say $200 per month (optimistic but not unreasonable) per property, then you will only need 13 properties in your investment portfolio.

See where I am going with this?

If your goal is to have assets generating at least $30K in annual recurring income at whatever age you choose to retire, then your objective is to acquire between 13 and 20 properties over the next few years until you meet your goal. With nine years to retirement, maybe acquiring two properties a year will do it for you. Annual rent increases and fixed rate mortgages will work to raise your cash flow over time so maybe some number between 13 and 20 is your magic number.

Leverage lets you acquire property with a small downpayment. You don’t have to own all your property free and clear, you just have to own enough property to meet your cash flow needs.

Dave,

I hadn’t been thinking in terms of cash flow for retirement income. I had been thinking of turning the equity into 2 homes to live in on retirement. That way I would avoid the capital gains when I do sell the 1 or more rental units. Maybe my focus should be more on cash flow.

Can you advise me on the best way to pull money out of my duplex (i.e. 2nd mortgage, home equity loan, etc.) for a down payment?

I had been looking for another rental with cash flow in NY and will look again now that my job situation is a bit more stable. I was unable to find any rentals in my area with good cash flows though. I am trying to avoid properties in depressed areas. Been there before and lost $ and had a management nightmare.

I am still wondering if it would be wise to look for a rental out of state. The taxes in NY are out of control as TMCG says but with an out of town rental I would have the added expense of a management agent. My limited look at vacation properties yielded negative cash flows but I imagine the property value would appreciate a lot.

Not sure which way to go. Would be easier if I found a rental with a solid cash flow.

Thanks,

John

John,

Read what you are saying – “a rental”, “a resort property”, “capital gains”. One property won’t do it for most. A free and clear primary residence won’t put food on the table. You can’t eat equity. If you have other sources of retirement income that make you comfortable thinking in terms of only having one free and clear property – your primary residence – then we don’t even need further discussion.

If you don’t already have all the income you will need in retirement, then think bigger, outside your comfort zone, outside your own box. Think about owning several rental properties for risk mitigation. If you only have one property and it is vacant, your cash flow temporarily dries up. If you have ten properties and one is vacant, does your cash flow go away? Think cash flow. You don’t need free and clear property to generate a positive cash flow.

Ten free and clear properties or 25 leveraged properties can generate the same amount of cash flow. I personally prefer to let my tenants pay my mortgages, all my operating expenses, and some more giving me a positive cash flow on all my properties. Eventually, my properties will become free and clear without any supplemental contributions out of my own pocket. I got where you want to be with more properties and without enduring negative cash flows. Just trying to give you a different solution to consider.

There are many different ways to achieve your goal. Here’s a couple more.

Let’s say that your goal is to have your properties generate $25K per year, tax free, for the rest of your life starting eight years from now. You have not yet said what you will really need, so I am just pulling numbers out of the air to illustrate my examples.

Start by buying one rental property per year for each of the next seven years. Let’s say that you buy prudently in strong rental markets and only pay about $50K for each property. At today’s rate of appreciation, each property should double in value in nine or ten years. At the end of nine years, the property you purchased in year one will have (almost) doubled in value from $50K to $100K, and you have paid down your mortgage balance as well so your equity exceeds $50K.

At the beginning of year ten (your first retirement year), let’s do a cash out refinance on the property purchased in year one. Our cash out amount is $25K and should keep the LTV on the property at or below 75%. Hopefully during the nine years of rental use, your rents have gradually increased so that you will still have a positive cash flow after the cash out refinance.

In the 11th year, repeat this process with the property purchased in year two. And continue in succeeding years sequentially refinancing one property every year to take $25K per year out of your equity, tax free, and with no negative cash flows. 7/23 ARMs might be good financing vehicles to support this plan. I suggest ARMs with 30 year amortizations because the rate (and your loan payment) stays fixed for seven years, and the ARM rate is generally lower than the 30 year fixed rate. If the rate of appreciation increases during the first seven years, then you can sequentially refinance each property during the next seven years to maintain your tax free income stream, perhaps for the rest of your life.

If an extra $25K tax free cash each year is not enough to support your lifestyle (about $2K per month), then adapt the scenario to the income number you need to hit.

I am not saying that your original proposal is flawed, it is just short-sighted. I am only trying to point out that there are alternatives to reaching your goal that don’t require free and clear property.

Here is a second approach.

If you want to jump in with both feet, then sell your duplex and defer the capital gains with a 1031 exchange. Buy seven $50K properties to launch your plan using fixed rate mortgages and 80% financing. There is nothing prohibiting you from applying all your cash flow plus supplemental out-of-pocket contributions to one rental property mortgage so that you pay it off in about three years. With one mortgage paid off you have more cash flow to contribute so the next mortgage can be paid off in 2.5 years. With two free and clear properties contributing to your cash flow, you should be able to pay off the third mortgage in the next year, and then as each new property becomes free and clear, you can pay off one perhaps two properties per year until at the end of the 10th year, you make the last payment on your last property so they are all free and clear.

Now, when all seven of your properties are free and clear, you should have at least $30K clear annual cash flow if each property is rented at $750 per month. If you need more for your living expenses, implement the sequential refinancing plan to supplement your cash flow with an extra $25K tax free cash. If you have more cash flow than you need, sequentially refinance and put the money to work for you by purchasing another rental or pay off your primary residence if you just can’t sleep at night with a mortgage payment.

By the way, you never said whether you are buying the home you live in or whether you are renting. If you are buying, what is your plan for your house after you retire?

Dave,

I am buying the house I’m in now and plan on keeping or trading down on retirement. On retirement I would like to buy (or move into my rental) in a second location.

You’re right I have been thinking 1 unit. My first rental purchase many years ago was as an owner occupied. My second purchase was in a low income area and lost me money. If I can get that next rental to work I would look for more.

My problem has been finding a property in upstate NY with a positive cash flow that’s not in the city (C of O requirements, new lead paint laws, depreciating property values, etc.). Upstate NY has been in an economic depression while property taxes have skyrocketed. Rents are not keeping up.

I am continuing my search locally now that my job situation is better but I am wondering if another location would be a better investment (even with the management fees I would incur). Do you have any suggestions on rental markets, tax climate, etc. in other south east locations (SC, NC, Virgina, etc.)?

Thanks for your suggestions, it has got me thinking. I just need that first property to get started. It’s discouraging looking at property after property with negative cash flows.

John

a friend of mine owns a rental in fulton, when she told me her taxes were 2700 a year i almost fell out of my chair.

THAT’S INSANE.

especially for those areas up there.

NYS is out to lunch. too many democrats raising taxes and WAY WAY WAY TOO MANY stupid repuklicans who can’t legislate their way out of a paper bag.

NYS is in a serious need of a make over, politically.

people are LEAVING in by the 10’s of thousands every three months. plus, long island - forget about it, we’re being taxed into the poor house. people can afford their P and I, but the taxes are OUT OF CONTROL.