I attended the Second Amendment March at the Columbus Statehouse this weekend! It was very impressive and a huge success. Several hundred patriotic Ohioans attended the meeting, with almost every person open carrying at least one gun. For those not familiar with the term, open carry means that you wear your gun in the open - visible for everyone to see.
Many speakers talked about the right to keep and bear arms and several of our excellent Ohio politicians discussed their efforts to expand gun rights in Ohio, including the right to carry a concealed weapon WITHOUT a license and expanding the right to carry into restaurants and bars that serve alcohol. In addition, Nikki Goeser told her story to the crowd. The short version is that her husband was murdered in 2009 in a restaurant that served alcohol by a man that was stalking her. Nikki had a license to carry a concealed handgun, but left her gun in the car as was required by Tennessee Law at that time (the law has since been changed).
Next Monday, the 19th, is the National Second Amendment March and I’m looking forward to being there!
I think that if we didn’t have the right to bear arms I would just be an outlaw. I do believe that we don’t just need to be able to bear arms I think education is very important. In my class they had an exercise that we didn’t know was going to be an exercise. They had 3 guys in the class with fake guns while the rest of us were unarmed in the class room. They had 3 guys come into the room and start shooting people. We had to figure out what to do. Everybody took cover or started running.
After the situation we were debriefed. The students with guns pretty much got shot and so did all of us. One student shot at least 4 of his classmates before he got hit. None of the bad guys got hit. It is not like in a movie where you know who the bad guys are. He thought that everybody with a gun was a bad guy. Even if Nikki had her gun her husband would probably still be dead and so would she.
The bad guys have to make a move first. That would have taken out her husband. She may have gotten him next or she may have died rummaging through her purse looking for her gun. She may have gotten the gun shot the guy and what she thought were his 2 accomplices who were actually patrons that had concealed carry licenses also and pulled their guns when they heard the gunshots. The first thing you have to do is make sure you survive to get to your gun and stay safe until you assess who the bad guys are. So she would have taken cover and stayed in that cover until someone made a move on her and then shot them. That would have rendered the same outcome (dead husband). The gun is important but the person with the gun is more important.
I agree that training is important. The good news is that criminals are almost universally idiots and poor shots. So, any amount of training is almost always better than a criminal has. Contrary to your assertions, law abiding citizens end up being successful with their guns in a very high percentage of encounters with criminals, even when the criminals draw their guns and shoot first.
Two recent events in Ohio make this point very well. In the first case, an armed man entered Bengals Food Mart in Toledo wearing a woman’s wig and carrying a handgun. When the man began shooting at the clerks, one of the clerks returned fire and killed the criminal. The second case also occurred in Toledo when Steve James entered Allied Music and pointed a gun at a clerk’s head. When the clerk screamed for help, the store owner pulled his own gun and shot the criminal. The criminal is expected to survive and faces charges in connection with the attempted robbery.
These are only 2 of the more than 2 MILLION times a year when law abiding citizens use guns to avert crimes and protect innocent lives. While your school experiment is interesting, it simply doesn’t reflect reality.
You are right. They talked about how hard it is to hit a person with a handgun. Most untrained people miss most of the time. That is why 50 cents got shot 9 times. If I had shot him he would be dead.
The FBI recently conducted a study and found that the majority of GANG MEMBERS and PROFESSIONAL CRIMINALS received their firearms training from…
THE U.S. MILITARY!!!
I’m all for gun carry laws, gun rights, and the FULL and NON RESTRICTED right to bear and own firearms…But believing that criminals are UNIVERSALLY POOR shots could get you KILLED!!
I got a crimson trace on my springfield 45 xd that takes a lot of the effort out of aiming. But like bluemoon said, your always shooting in second place. I have had multiple occasions of hoodish type riff raff on the street just come zipping up to me to ask for a “dolla” In the winter they have hoodies on with their hands jammed in the front pocket almost taunting you that they might have a gun. If they decide to shoot right away for what ever the reason, I am dead. If not, a well timed distraction followed by a step, draw and double pump should get them. A good book on how to use well timed distractions just came out. The Official CIA Manual of Trickery and Deception. It was pretty good if your into that stuff.
As I said in my post, even when the criminal gets the first shot, they usually lose. I’ve got book after book filled with real life shootouts in which the criminal started with the advantage and ended up losing. Moreover, many times the criminals don’t even know how to use the stolen handgun the possess. They don’t know how to load it; they don’t know how to cock it; they don’t know how to aim it; they don’t know how the safety works; and they are idiots. They’re hopped up on drugs and alcohol and aren’t able to even accomplish simple tasks. We had a recent case here in Ohio where some punk tried to rob a Pizza shot by sticking a shotgun in the owner’s face. The shotgun was empty and as I recall the owner shot the punk 9 times. The guy ran out of the Pizza shop and across the street before having the decency to lay down and die (saving the taxpayers the expense of trying and incarcerating him). Furthermore, action beats reaction, so even when some scumbag has the draw on you, a quick move combined with a quick draw can result in the criminal being shot before they can pull the trigger. Finally, the vast majority of people that are shot do not die. Just because some criminals shoots you first certainly doesn’t mean that you are done fighting. Handgun bullets can NOT knock you down regardless of the caliber, unless they strike the brain or spine. And many gang bangers carry small caliber handguns like .25’s and .32’s because of their small size. People only fall down after being shot on t.v. or more often as the result of watching too much t.v.
The FBI recently conducted a study and found that the majority of GANG MEMBERS and PROFESSIONAL CRIMINALS received their firearms training from......
Google: FBI report reveals gang members receiving military training.
A few of these articles reference local POLICE OFFICERS killed in gun fights with gang members that have extensive military training and OUT SHOT police.
I have numerous friends that work in Federal and State prisons…These inmates are far from “Universally Idiots”…You couldn’t IMAGINE how smart these people are…Incriped coded messages used to run multi million dollar drug businesses from INSIDE that read like a letter home to family…Executions ordered and CARRIED out anytime, any place…Extensive smuggling operations for anything needed inside. Incredibly complex systems of lookouts and SIGNALS used to alert inmates of approaching guards or changing conditions. And on and on…
How’d they LEARN this stuff???
The FBI admits…The U.S. MILITARY in providing EXCELLENT training for our nations CRIMINALS!!!
I agree that there are a lot of MORONS out there…NO DOUBT about that…But there are a LOT of VERY SMART people doing some very BAD things with some very GOOD TRAINING!!!
I havent been in any shootouts but I have been boxed in, in a attempted robbery/car jacking at one of my places of business( total setup)…I carry (legally) and I can tell you that the last thing I thought about at that moment was to draw my weapon and have a showdown with my assailants…I got the blank outta there and fast…They left me enough room and I took it…Point being carrying a gun is good but if you think for one minute you are going to pull a Rambo ,you are mistaken…Its nice to have,makes you feel like a big man and safe but in reality when someone has the “jump” on you its a wrap plain and simple…By you attempting to reach for your weapon at that moment is a guaranteed dirt nap…A gun is good for home protection,you see the sensors go off,or you hear something outside you can grab it but thats about it…I NEVER want to have to shoot my gun for any reason at anyone unless forced…But like I said dont kid yourself about its effectiveness after someone has the jump on you…Dont be stupid
I have no doubts that some gang members have served in the military. The only part of your original post that I question and would like to read about is your assertion that “the majority of GANG MEMBERS and PROFESSIONAL CRIMINALS received their firearms training from…the U.S. Military”. I simply don’t believe that and didn’t see that in any of the articles I read after googling “FBI report reveals gang members receiving military training”. What I did see is that it’s estimated that the gang presence in the US Military is no more than 1 to 2 percent and is limited to the E-1 to E-4 ranks, but is increasing. I would be VERY INTERESTED in reading any FBI report or article that says that the majority (or even a significant percentage) of gang members and/or professional criminals received their firearms training in the military.
I have numerous friends that work in Federal and State prisons....These inmates are far from "Universally Idiots"......You couldn't IMAGINE how smart these people are.....Incriped coded messages used to run multi million dollar drug businesses from INSIDE that read like a letter home to family....Executions ordered and CARRIED out anytime, any place....Extensive smuggling operations for anything needed inside. Incredibly complex systems of lookouts and SIGNALS used to alert inmates of approaching guards or changing conditions. And on and on....
If they were smart, they wouldn’t be in prison.
I’m not saying that there isn’t a single smart criminal somewhere in the US. Furthermore, I freely admit that we don’t have any significant gang activity in our area (except maybe in the prison system) and that I don’t deal with gang bangers on a regular basis. In fact, the only time that I do deal with this scum is when the occassional gang banger wants to move here from one of the big cities in Ohio - I always say NO! Almost without exception, almost every criminal that I have dealt with is a complete moron, without even a hint of intelligent life. That’s not to say that criminals in other areas of the country aren’t smarter (they couldn’t be any dumber).
I havent been in any shootouts but I have been boxed in, in a attempted robbery/car jacking at one of my places of business( total setup)..I carry (legally) and I can tell you that the last thing I thought about at that moment was to draw my weapon and have a showdown with my assailants..I got the blank outta there and fast..
Using a handgun for self-defense should be a last resort and you did EXACTLY what you should have done!
but in reality when someone has the "jump" on you its a wrap plain and simple...By you attempting to reach for your weapon at that moment is a guaranteed dirt nap..
The facts don’t bare this statement out. I listed two real life examples that happened here in Ohio just in the past month where criminals had the “jump” on average law-abiding citizens, and in one case the criminal walked into the store and started shooting. In both cases, the law-abiding citizens shot the criminals, killing one criminal, WITH NO INJURY TO ANY OF THE LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS. These are not isolated cases, I could list case after case right here in Ohio where concealed carry licensees stopped an attack by criminals who had the “jump” on them.
Here are a couple of books that are FILLED with real life examples of law-abiding citizens stopping criminal attacks (often when the criminal had the jump on them:
The Best Defense: True stories of intended victims who defended themselves with a firearm
Outgunned: True stories of citizens who stood up to outlaws and won
Guns Save Lives: True stories of Americans defending their lives with firearms
In addition, the NRA Magazine, “America’s 1st Freedom” has a page of real life incidents every month in which armed citizens use firearms to defend their lives.
That FBI report was released to Law Enforcement only(I believe that was mentioned in the articles you found)…It was presented to us while attending a police/fire cross training exercise. Very interesting reading. Apparently these scum bags ENLIST young members of their gang into the military…The training and the discipline are then used to benefit the organization as a whole. They literally take these members directly to recruiting stations and have them sign up. They are all young, have NO criminal records, and are eagerly accepted by the military. Once trained, these gang members re-group INSIDE the military and continue to TRAIN together.
I’m not disagreeing with everything you said Mike…I’m just not about to write off criminals in the country as “Universally idiots and poor shots.”
There are some INCREDIBLY ingenius people in our prisons systems…The stories I hear from my friends are MIND BLOWING.
One of my buddies on the Fire Department was a Federal Prison guard prior to becoming a Firefighter…They had 2 Hell’s Angels sent to his facility. Within ONE MONTH these two guys RAN that prison (as far as the inmates were concerned) They controlled EVERYTHING. They had smuggling operations, communications to the outside 24/7, drug sales INSIDE the prison, prostitution…They OWNED that place…Eventually their operation was shut down and the full extent of their business was a real eye opener for the adminstration.
My friend said this about his time there (para phrasing)
“You come into a place like that thinking these people are all morons, idiots, they were stupid enough to get CAUGHT right??..You leave there understanding that INTELLIGENCE is REALATIVE TO THE ENVIRONMENT. There are BRILLIANT people in prisons. They might not be able to TALK like an intelligent person, but they are WICKEDLY SMART…CUNNING…and they can size up a person and a place in minutes and discover it’s weak points.”
Do some reading about the Chicago PD and the amazing stories of their gang problems in hi-rise housing complexes. These buildings are 50 stories tall. Gangs RUN THEM…They are set up like military installations. They use looks outs stationed at every corner of the building and at various levels. They cut holes in the drywall between apartments so IF the police show up in force for a raid…They can be 10 apartments away from the point of entry without ever entering a common hall way. We learn these things because in a fire situation those holes (large enough for a person to RUN through) create PERFECT passages for FIRE to travel through. The entire building is compromised because of this. And fire supression systems designed to work with “hour rated” fire walls are now USELESS.
These people are very cunning, very shrewd, very in touch with their surroundings and they understand how to derive an ADVANTAGE from that.
Now this is an interesting discussion. I think I agree with both Jake and PM. I think you have your complete morons that are in for their 3rd strike for stealing a twinkie. On the flip side you have these career gang criminals that are just as smart as you and I; if not smarter. I watched 60 minutes on Sunday night and they had an extended interview with John Gotti Junior. During the interview they showed a taped conversation of him having a prison visit with his father at the Supermax prison in Colorado. The most interesting part is that the 60 minutes and JGJ deciphered the conversation for the TV viewer and it sounded completely different from what they were actually saying in the meeting. There is no doubt in my mind that criminal organizations are run from prison.
I have to agree with PO here. If you get into a shoot out you have to make sure you win. You want to shoot until he stops moving. Explain it to the judge later on. That highly trained military thug that fdjake mentioned is not in your span of control and you can’t factor that in. As my instructor said, “You have to remember that you are not a spectator, you are an active participant.”. You have one goal and that is to make sure you hit the target. It is more important to be accurate than fast.