I've read the sub-to articles

I have read the sub - to articles but I can’t find out what forms are needed to do a sub to deal. Can someone help?

You can do a search on these boards. Here’s one such thread …


Also, it’s always good to have a competant RE attorney look over your forms as laws are different from state to state.

I really appreciate the link. It contained everything that I needed. Thanks~

Forget subject 2’s unless subterfuge is a way of life. Use a NARS land trust. Safe and profitable.

Gary, You use a land trust with sub 2’s. not subterfuge.
If you do it the way Charlie & Randy France teach.



Doing subject 2’s without a land trust violates the DOSC. That’s where the ref to subterfuge comes in. The trust is legal under federal law and no concealing of anything is needed.

Charlie and Randi France charge people thousands of dollars for their “knowledge”. I am suspicious that like many gurus, they may be making their money on tapes and books, not on real estate transactions.

Bill Gatten, creator of the land trust invites everyone to attend his 3-day seminar FREE and he gives his book away FREE. He is the creator of this system which has been successfully used since 1984, and having used the trust successfully many times, I can thank him and his system for financial rewards.

Gary Mialocq,

You might explain to me how I was able to do over 500+ Subject To (verifiable on county recorders offices) deals without a trust and with out problems from Attorney General offices or lenders (never a DOS called). Still doing Sub 2’s without problems.

Use a land trust in North Carolina and it is fraud, that’s what the AG’s office says.

Saying that doing Subject To deals “without a land trust violates the DOSC” is non sense", unless you are selling a course or recommending one that markets the course this way.***

I believe Bill Bronchick’s article pretty well says it all…

***“I am suspicious that like many gurus, they may be making their money on tapes and books, not on real estate transactions.”

I am not selling anything so no axe to grind on my part.

John $Cash$ Locke

PS: The reason I mentioned North Carolina is because I know who’s land trust was used when some folks where standing tall in front of the Attorney General’s office.

Gary, You should not throw stones, it makes it look like you live in a glass house.

I belong to the same local REI club as the Frances and have known them for over a year. I know they have bought and sold hundreds of houses. They still have lots of properties and are doing a lot of deals.

I am glad you have found what works for you. But that does not give you the right to slam what works for other people.

Gary I wish you success, but please play nice.




The topic was what forms to use for a subject 2? I suggested there is one safe way to do it, free from DOSC compromise, etc. I’m not slamming what works for other people. I am promoting what I believe is the best and safest way to proceed (the trust), after having used those same methods they are promoting for many years until I found a better way.

It was not a personal attack, only a question. After having been involved in real estate for more than 25 years and having either met or come across many of the gurus (90% of whom were at least semi-scam artists making money off books and tapes) I’m a bit suspicious of people who sell information for thousands of dollars, then come on to the forum and attack me (in a separate thread) and say they aren’t selling anything when they have courses selling online

I have a life and my ONLY purpose on this forum is to help people succeed. I don’t charge fees for setting up trusts, my tenants are able to writeoff taxes and mortgage interest and I share future appreciation with them 50/50. Can any of your gurus say that? My ebook is free. Peace to all.

I guess you just can not help yourself. At the bottom of your post you had to put in a slam. :bash:
They can say they are good people and do not have to put others down just to TRY and make themselves look good.

Sorry for you :cry:

Final reply, Bruce. You don’t have to feel sorry for me. I don’t even know you and won’t lose any sleep over it. “Peace to all” was not a slam.

Feel sorry for people who are all over the Internet selling their books and courses for thousands like John Cash Locke who responded to my honest attempt to assist someone with information with an entry above that is intentionally misleading, inaccurate, wrong, and self-serving.

Locke: “Use a land trust in North Carolina and it is fraud, that’s what the AG’s office says.” - John knows good and well that is NOT TRUE.

Do the words, “unless prohibited by applicable law” ring a bell? No State Government or Lender Contract can overwrite “Applicable Law”. Federal Law allows ANYONE to place their property into their own Inter-Vivos Trust, Name Remainder Agents (Beneficiaries) and any one of those “Beneficiaries” has the right to reside in, pay for, and maintain that property as long as the Grantor remains “A” Beneficiary and the “Trust” does not relate to the transfer of occupancy rights.

The State of NC cannot overwrite Federal Law! PERIOD! John knows that!

Has the State of NC and others successfully prosecuted would be investors using Land Trusts improperly or fraudulently? Yes!

Were they NARS Trusts? NO!

Locke then says:

“Saying that doing Subject To deals “without a land trust violates the DOSC” is nonsense”, unless you are selling a course or recommending one that markets the course this way.***" I am not selling anything so no axe to grind on my part."

John has books and tapes and courses on subject 2’s selling all over the internet. He has a huge axe to grind and apparently must feel threatened by an asset management technique that is clearly safer and not in violation of the DOSC. I applaud and respect Bill Gatten for conducting free 3-day seminars and giving away his excellent book free.

Have a happy New Year.


Here is a post a I made on REI Club right after I pulled my course of the market even though it was a Number 1 seller on all the sites it was on…

"27 Real Estate Investing / Sub2, Owner Finance, Options, Lease Options Forum / Re:John $Cash$ Locke “Subject To” Course on: Sun. Sep 11, 2005, 07:09 AM

First let me thank you for the kind words.

When I authored my first Subject To manual “Subject To that’s what I do” it was something I felt very strongly that not only should a course writer offer their materials but also include follow up mentoring for the price the student invested in the materials.

So, included with the manual was, one on one email with me when a student needed advice, a password protected web site where investors and bird dogs could network and my cell number where a student needing advise fast could call me. The manual was a best seller on every site it was on, however I had to set a number of students who I could effectively help with the mentoring offered, when that number was reached then I discontinued the sale of the manual.

The same thing happened with my full training course, when I reached that maximum number of students or close to it, I put a cut off date, which was Sepetember 10, 2005. There was no “last chance” to purchase or really and big fanfare, because it has never been about selling courses only giving back what I have done very successfully to help those wanting to enter this great industry.

Currently I am upgrading my Big Bucks Bird Dogging e-book, which I will keep on the market for those that want to start in this industry and really learn from the ground up.

But, for now I just advise my current students, do some posting here at the REIclub and do a deal a week just to keep in practice.

John $Cash$ Locke"

So again I see you don’t know what you are talking about by saying my course is selling all over the internet.

Although I do not hold a Ph.D my advice to you would be start anwering posts to help others from real life experience without advertising that you are the savior of real estate investors.

I have been in a few flaming threads with Mr. Gatten but at least he checks out what he is talking about before he posts and I consider him a respected friend, also let me know where to send the Napkin so you can get the Egg off your face.

John $Cash$ Locke

Hi John,

I respect your work and know that you and Bill have gone at least a few rounds. Save the napkin, though, for your comments about North Carolina. Bad!

My advice to others is given from 25 years of creative financing experience and I don’t consider promoting the NARS Trust advertising. I simply believe it is the best asset management strategy any homeowner can employ. How else can you find tenants who will pay a higher rent and take full responsibility for maintenance and repairs?

The Trust enables your tenants to writeoff mortgage interest and property taxes and share in future appreciation while at the same time you have no responsibility for maintenance and repairs, collections or property management and are fully protected against creditor judgments, bankruptcy, divorce, etc. Pretty cool.

Have a healthy and happy New Year, John and best of luck to you.


Gary do you think you are the all powerfull OZ

Sorry but I don’t think anybody is going to get on bended knee. :silly:

Like I said, “I guess you just can not help yourself”

John, I looked it up and his guy gives a little for free, so you will BUY his products. Just like every other guru and that is ok with me.

I have seen a several different guru’s products. Some better than others. But I learned somthing from each of them. I will keep reading the forums, courses, and books.
Hopefully in a few years I will not turn into a " I KNOW IT ALL, EVERY BODY ELSE IS WRONG "

Wishing Success to All

Gary Mialocq, Ph.D.

If that’s a PhD in North Carolina real estate investing, I know what it stands for…“Piled higher and Deeper”