Ideas for 2010/2011

Well summer is over for me and frankly I’m ready to get back to work…I can’t say that I plan on changing my business plan anytime soon…Im going with the old line if it aint broke why fix it…I plan on doing a few owner occuppied mortgages this year on 3 properties I aquired recently…And I plan on doing my HML business as well…Being the bank isn’t for everyone but those landlords who bought right and are frustrated it pays to do the numbers and see holding a mortgage at higher rates isn’t much different than running the property yourself…Ive used this method with the franchise I’m involved with…I often put people in as owner operators with a smaller amount down and hold high % paper for a longer period…Being that I know the net #'s so well I can create strong notes and hold paper for long terms…Something to consider…I’ve also considered buying more properties but I want to see how my owner occuppied mortgages do…

I bought 3 - 1 family homes for about 100k total…I bought deeply discounted homes that need minimal work…I have one sold for 75k with %20 down and I’m holding the mortgage at %8.5 with a 5 year call…I will report back how this deal goes but surprisingly my buyer has a 710 credit score and a willingness to buy another house from me…I told him no until I see how current and problem free he is for me to deal with…I don’t have any plans for the equity markets until I see the markets break HARD in either direction…My boss is amazing and never pushes me…He knows a forced trade is a bad trade…We are following suit with other hedge funds and stock piling cash…The money has been made from the lows to highs bounce…We have taken some off the table and will re-evaluate our allocations after the uncertainty passes in the markets…Im still mixed on my reviews on the future…

Terrific interest rate–8.5% on that owner-carry note, rookie. Where did you find your buyers?

Furnishedowner

My buyers come from my HML business…I have a good relationship with some of my borrowers and make deals with them…These are not big deals for me but they are different types of deals…I look at it as I’m getting %50 of my purchase price back at closing plus I’m making %100+ interest on the sale…I include the call because I am sure interest rates will be sky high in 5 years…Making %8.5 rate look like a gift…I also used a similar method upstate NY on a few of my income properties I wanted out of…I would find a buyer and offer owner financing at %10 with a 5 year call…I sold 4 properties that way…I would simply pay off HSBC and create my own mortgage…I didn’t do wrap arounds because I had the capital and it didn’t make sense…I would rather make the ROI on the capital…These methods work well not only if u have capital but if u have properties with lots of equity and u want out of them…Id rather hold a highly collateralized mortgage than be a landlord…Im very comfortable with the business but its not for everyone…

One of the advantages of flipping houses on a regular basis is it puts large chunks of CASH in your bank account many times over.

One of my plans for 2011 will put some of that cash to use for FUTURE GAINS…

The plan is relatively simple IF you have large amounts of cash.

Right now there are people looking to sell large tracts of farm land in my area of operation. These tracts are in high demand areas with higher end houses.
The PROBLEM for these land owners is two fold…

One… their TAXES are INCREASING as cities and towns scramble to balance budgets

And TWO…The BANKS that financed the SALE of these properties to developers are no longer even REMOTELY interested in RAW LAND LOANS.

As these people reach retirement age they are literally land rich and cash poor.

What I do is this…

I approach these land owners with a simple offer…Let’s say the parcel Im looking at has 20 acres with enough space for 12 house lots…The owner wants $1.1 million for the parcel…NO BANK is going near this project because they already OWN too much real estate. I explain that their asking price is unrealistic in today’s market, BUT they COULD put a quarter of a million dollars in their pocket NEXT MONTH if they’re willing to sell the property for $500,000 and hold 3 to 4 lots in the new sub division for themselves that can be sold at a later date, and possibly at and INCREASED PRICE as the sub division builds out. I use $250,000 in cash and finance the balance through a line of credit I have. The first 2 houses I sell pay off the loan and the remaining 6 get built out over time.
In a normal market most sub division lots tend to increase in value as the project builds out and more and more people see the finished neighborhood.

$250,000 cash is a large sum of money to a person that owes NOTHING on a property like this. It generates NO INCOME yet COSTS $$$$ every year in property taxes. By doing the deal this way I get OWNERSHIP of the majority of the project for a FRACTION of the asking price while the owner gets the POTENTIAL of a better price as time goes by and LIQUID CASH IMMEDIATELY!!!

Jake

I like the idea but there are many more hidden costs in a development of that nature. First you will have to hire an architect, surveyor and civil engineer. Then your going have to go to the zoning board for approval. Once approved for subdivision you will have permitting fees and impact fees. Then you will have to build roads an bring in utilities; sanitary sewer, water, electric, storm water control. To do all this if you have no construction background you will also need to hire a construction manager. Do not rely on the Architect for this service. Hire a CM and Architect then have them both report to you. That way you avoid collusion.

I like your idea, I just think you need to think it through a little more thoroughly. Because the land is just one part in the equation. You may be able to make some money by going through the subdivision approval process and then selling approved subdivision at a premium to the raw land cost.

I can go on and on and I haven’t even touched on all that’s going to be involved. I would look for an experienced partner if you haven’t done this before and watch him like a hawk. Big money is lost in construction if you don’t know the ropes.

Good Luck

I’ve done this many times before…This isn’t my first sub division.

The IDEA here is meant for SEASONED REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS…Not some new guy on his second ranch house flip. The DEAL is structured to give the land owner SOME CASH, gets ME OWNERSHIP, and all at a FRACTION of the build out value.

The POST was…

[b]IDEAS for 2010/2011. That’s MINE…

Ok another scenario arose out of nowhere and I could use some experienced RE opinions on this one…

A business owner I know who owns a commercial lot being used as a truck depot approached me for a HML…500k HML property is free and clear and worth 1.8 area…Here is the issue…I firmly believe the ground to be contaminated with oil and anti freeze etc…I also know to clean up these properties costs a fortune…Any idea how much a field test on a property of this size costs?..its abt 1.25 acres odd cut lot…commercial…taxes are 70k a year but he makes an easy 600k in rent roll but he can’t get conventional financing …Im assuming because the ground is contaminated…but who knows…Im in no rush to do this loan as I’m seeking many opinions…tks all

Testing these sites is like hiring an Architect…There’s TWO ways of doing it…

The first way is EXPENSIVE…You hire your architect and tell him you and your wife want him to get a “FEEL for the LAND” you own and design a house around that FEELING…This is the same as handing the architect a BLANK CHECK!!! Also the same as calling a HAZ MAT Remediation Contractor to test this site.

The OTHER way to do this is MUCH CHEAPER…You and your wife pick out a house plan ON LINE…Print it, make minor changes to it and drop it off at a JUNIOR ARCHITECT and have him DRAW IT for you and make copies…MUCH CHEAPER!!!

The way you do THAT with this site is simple…

After you get the owners consent you hire a backhoe with operator for half a day ($500) That backhoe is going to dig TEST HOLES in various locations on that site at varying DEPTHS…THEN, once the holes are dug (on the same day) you have your TESTING COMPANY test the bottom of each hole for any contamination…Make sure they know the testing is for YOUR INFORMATION ONLY…They report ONLY TO YOU…In most cases oil and antifreeze don’t seep that far into the ground from surface sources like trucks…Once you know HOW FAR, you can simply calculate how much MATERIAL needs to be removed from the site…It won’t be the same in all locations…Some will be deeper, other more shallow.

This will give you a true idea of HOW BAD it is…

And if the owner DEFAULTS and you end up with the land???

THEN…You hire a trailer dump and a excavator for 1 to 2 days TOPS (this is a small site (1.25 acres) It’s a ONE DAY JOB in the real world. Before this happens YOU contact a facility that takes contaminated material…This is not a big deal…These places just incinerate it and RESELL IT as fill. Once the oil and contaninates are burned off it’s inert.

Once the material is OFF SITE…THEN you have the “OFFICAL TEST”

NO PROBLEM. Clean as a whistle!! and you SELL IT for $1.8 MIL and send JAKE a NICE CONSULTANT FEE!!!

Worst case for YOU on this???..You’re out initial testing fee’s and the cost of a BACKHOE and operator for a day…THEN you’ll know what you have.

With a little work on your part and knowing what NOT TO DO, this could be a GREAT DEAL!!!

When you contact testing companies TELL THEM you have a backhoe ready to dig test holes on a 1.25 acre site which you want tested for oil ,anti freeze and other haz mats…TELL THEM you want tests done at various locations and at various depths and ASK for their recommendation for your parcel size.
By asking THESE questions they will be under the impression that you have done this before and know what you’re doing. In this business, THAT means a MUCH lower price…compared to someone calling and ASKING "How do I go about getting a lot tested???..The construction TRANSLATION for that phrase is…I have no clue so charge me whatever you think I can afford.

Hi Rookie,

             Don't send FD Jake his consulting check just yet, the realities of contamination of oil, diesel fuel and anti freeze are not limited, however just contamination 1 foot deep could mean trucking out and replacing 3,025 tons (18 square feet per ton) of material. (54,450 sq. ft. for 1.25 acres)

Depending on the type of soil contamination can be 10, 20 or 30 feet deep or more, just hauling out 1 foot deep and bringing in new soil and placing and compacting it to 90% compaction would be a major financial cost.

It is believed that contamination under the Arco Oil Refinery in Los Angeles, CA is 200 feet deep!

Digging a hole is called Pot holing, it is what FD Jake refered to for testing, but samples should be taken in layers, in a grid pattern, and on a property like this you probable want to do holes at 50 feet on a grid or about 35 holes and you might have 5 to 20 samples, each sample can run $75 to $250 for lab testing depending on the number of chemicals you test for!

It is actually cheaper on a property like this to use a reverse rotary drill do an auger hole, 6" is adiquate to get good samples at pre-determined depths which ultimately depend on a visual inspection of samples at every depth, actually it is likely a couple of initial holes will be done to determine depth.

Re-compacting a set of 35 trenches 15 feet deep would be significantly more costly than doing reverse rotary drilling and filling the holes with grout

Then you have Hazmat cost’s? Permit’s? Does materials need to be handled and sealed on site? Are there PCB’S? VOC’s, Oil breaks down in to a series of components and solvents, and anti freeze is an outright contaminate requiring special handling.

In a gas station with a leaking tank contaminates have been known to be as deep as 30 or 40 feet.

You will not be able to do your own clean up on a site like this, there are rules and regulations in place, special handling and the contaminates may have to go to a special dump. Inspections will occure, sampling after removal, monitering in some contamination circumstances!

I would not get involved in loaning money on a lot like this, who’s to say the sight is not hugely contaminated and can never be used for another purpose and the land is not worth 10 cents on the dollar? This could be a convienant way to dump the property and the liability on another party!

Good luck,

             GR

The only problem with Gold Rivers plan is this…

First…He mentions the ARCO OIL REFINERY as an example of a contaminated site…But the site being discussed here is a PARKING LOT!!! H U G E Difference in USE…H U G E difference in potential contamination.

Second…He mentions GAS STATIONS with under ground TANKS…AGAIN…COMPLETELY different problem at a completely different site. Leaking underground tanks are NOT what we’re discussing here.

The entire point here is to give a potential investor a look at any potential problems at this site.

DIGGING 35 FOOT TRENCHES, 15 FEET DEEP is the LAST thing you want to do here. Once again…It’s NOT an OIL REFINERY or and UNDER GROUND TANK FARM…It’s a PARKING LOT that in all likelyhood MIGHT have some “top down” contamination.

A good inspection company that understands what’s being tested and WHY, can get you a look at a very reasonably cost (considering the loan amount is half a million dollars!)

The other REALITY here is this…How many BANKS do you think would even CONSIDER making a loan on this property IF even a small PORTION of the property has contamination??? ANSWER…NOT ONE!! And THAT is exactly WHERE Rookie’s OPPORTUNITY lies.

ANY testing company worth a damn is going to have ON STAFF, a certified soil scientist…These guys do the stratification analysis on the on site soil samples…It won’t take MULITPLE 35 foot long 15 foot deep TRENCHES for them to identify a problem. Two things are going to happen there.

One…They start digging and find a LOT of contamination, at which point ROOKIE stops everything (he needs to be ONSITE the day of the tests), pays the company, and RUNS AWAY from this deal…OR…They find very LITTLE contamination on site and he makes the loan.

The rest of the process is simple site work. AGAIN…WHY would Rookie take on a project that required the removal of “3025 TON’S of MATERIAL.”???
He WOULDN’T…He RUN away from the deal and have no legal obligation or ties to the site. In fact, he doesn’t want to do ANY work on this site…He wants to KNOW how much it MIGHT cost if the OWNER defaults and he ends up owning it…It would be much better for him to simply make the loan and get paid back. When banks get back to doing what banks do (LOANING MONEY instead of running away from deals) That owner is going to get a CHEAPER conventional loan and Rookie gets paid in full!

The bottom line here is this…Rookie DOES NOT want to OWN this parcel, he wants a RETURN on his investment…By doing some testing and understanding WHAT, if ANY problems exist there, he makes a FULLY INFORMED DECISION with a good estimate of POSSIBLE remediation costs should the owner DEFAULT on the loan and he ends up owning the property. He’s NOT looking at an old OIL REFINERY or an UNDERGROUND TANK FARM here…It’s a PARKING LOT!

Ty Gold River…Ty fdjake…

I appreciate the expert opinions…Im actually pausing this deal at the moment…Taking my time and will advise as I go along…Ty for the input…The client will have to layout all these fees as I can see them mounting quickly…ty again all…

Hi,

We actually own a company that does drilling services and are licensed engineering and building contractors in multiple states so I have a little advantage.

First if you build 2 plexiglass columns 20 feet tall and fill one with clay’s and the other with sandy soil and compact both columns to 90% compaction then pour one gallon of red anti freeze in both columns what happens?

Second compaction testing would only have maybe two or three holes on a site but when it comes to contamination there has to be a series of holes on a grid pattern, it is the only way to plot exactly where on a site the contamination sits!

FD Jake, please read my posting as it’s posted “I stated it would be more cost effective to drill 35 reverse rotary holes (On a 50 x 50 foot grid) on this site than to dig a hole 1 bucket width wide and 15 feet deep” because you can’t just put the dirt back in the hole without compacting it; in fact with out compacting you would end up with a pile of dirt sitting on site and when the first good rain storm occurs you would end up with holes deep enough to sink a truck tire to the axel.

Yes, I mentioned gas stations and oil refineries, and yes we know this is a trucking yard, however the same principle applies that depending on the geological make up of the soil, liquids including rain can run down through the ground and carry things like oil, solvents, anti freeze, diesel fuel, tranny fluids, hydraulic fluids, brake fluid and grease into the soil.

Digging a trench in a long line across a site is called a cross cut or refered to as trench testing in the industry.

A testing company will come in and on a grid pattern will take what’s called “Grab Samples” from the top of the ground and will probable need to take 35 to 40 samples of about 5 lbs each!
There not going to do any testing on site and the “GEO Tech” who oversee’s samples although experienced will reserve judgement until after the lab results come back.

Secondly they will pick a test location that show’s contamination and drill a 20 or 30 foot hole pulling samples every 2 feet to get a good number on how deep contamination is, then any location where a sample turned up positive they will go to the test point outside the positive test and drill to there depth determined in the first drilling.

What this does is pin point contamination and allows the site to be mapped for contaminated area’s!

FD Jake I never infered that Rookie was going to loan on this if it was contaminated, however who pay’s for testing? This is not some little $1000, $1500 dollar deal, this can get very expensive very quick. Just the first group of samples can be $5k to $10k to collect and process.

Of our 7 equipment yards here in north america, at least 2 have had trucks and equipment as a primary use for over 40 years, I could pretty much just from the color of the ground imagion they are contaminated at least a few feet deep, but would not surprise me if fluids have penetrated 5 to 10 feet deep or more in places.

For that matter Rookie could collect his own surface samples from the site, on a grid pattern and submit them to a lab, but the samples would not be considered “Factual” or useable for effectively determining contamination by a licensed reclamation and remidiation company who would have to certify the site after removing contaminates.

I am going to conceed to FD Jakes expertise as I am certainly no expert on environmental compliance or environmental reclamation, we have been operating as one of our primary businesses in the mining industry for 10 years, we have 9 corporations operating in mining and mining services on 5 continent’s and have to write operating plans, meet environmental compliance and deal with mercury, lead, cyanide, heavy metals, arsnic, sulpher, sulpheric acid and toxic gases in earth, air and water and of course man made waste like this site.

We have participated in various functions with mine clean ups as contractors or service suppliers under the EPA - AML program and similar programs in other countries.

Now your probable wondering why we are contractors, although we do not do business directly with the public, you see we own and operate two tract home building companies and we develop and build commercial projects in over a dozen states, we just won’t tell FD Jake we were building and selling over 500 homes a year before the economy crashed.

But I am sure glad we have people to lead the charge, who read posting’s and add some extra things to think on in there postings and there are certainly better expertise than me out there, I just know enough to get myself in trouble, after all I started and grew this group of businesses from scratch 10 years ago, so I can’t possible know very much about environmental issues, compliance or remediation or reclamation!

I think FD Jake is right, I would jump right in and put my half million on this site, just for the returns, after all this is an easy clean up, a back hoe and a little work. It’s Magic!!!

Good luck,

            Gold River

Great post GR.

GR

This is EXACTLY what I was referring to in my post…

The ARCHITECT hired by the couple that want to build a home with “feeling.”

Rookie was asking for COST EFFECTIVE WAYS to check out a potential investment.

YOUR advice is GREAT…But has a HUGE price tag…

MINE gets him a “good look” for a FRACTION of the cost. If the parcel is a MESS…He just walks away…

If YOU read his post reply, in all probability the OWNER will be paying for testing…The same person looking for HALF A MILLION DOLLARS!!!
With all your KNOWLEDGE…Do you see that happening here??

But I’m a little confused on another matter…

In your post you state in one paragraph that you started this company from scratch 10 years ago…and in another, state that the company has operations on NUMEROUS CONTINENTS!!! And… was building 500 homes PER YEAR before the bust. PLUS COMMERCIAL development, along with MINING OPERATIONS and ENGINEERING!!!

And all of it in JUST 10 years huh??? And in REALITY…LESS than 10 years…because as you know, the last 2 years have been DEAD…So all this GLOBAL EXPLOSION from a “Started from scratch” business in what???

LESS than 8 years???

Yea right :rolleyes :rolleyes

My guess is… YOU “grew these businesses” with a BIG CORPORATE CHECK BOOK behind you (and at that corporation, you’re one of hundreds or maybe thousands of EMPLOYEES)…and here’s the IMPORTANT PART…NOT A SINGLE DIME OF YOUR OWN $$$$$$ WENT INTO EVEN A SHINGLE ON ONE OF THOSE 500 HOMES!!!

Rookie and I play with OUR MONEY…Not some BOTTOMLESS PIT of Corporate funding that if lost, simply means you go to work in another DIVISION next MONDAY!!

But what do I know…I just built a MULTI MILLION DOLLAR REAL ESTATE Business out of the bed of a pickup truck 20 years ago…USING MY MONEY!!

But hey, The COMPANY YOU WORK FOR has a DIVISION that built 500 houses a year!!!

and How many of them did YOU finance???

In the world Rookie and I work in NO ONE writes the checks for us…WE WRITE THEM, BACK THEM, and CREATE the FUNDS that cover those checks. And in that world you need to find solutions for problems that don’t get paid out of someone elses CHECKBOOK!!!

Hi,

 You know this was not a personal battle, I have expertise in certain area's and have no problem admitting those things I am no expert in, but sometimes people have a way of making it personal.

First when Rookie who is infact a decent nice guy asked for help, it was in line with our knowledge and base of expertise, I get nothing from lending good sound advice that stands on it’s own merits.

We are not talking about building homes by feeling, we are discussing the merits of making a half million dollar loan on a property that may not be worth anywhere close to the FMV of other properties because of it’s contamination! And what is the potential liability if this borrower dumps this property on Rookie?

Rookie did not even once refer by name to “Cost effective way’s” in any of his postings reguarding this property! My advice is sound, professional and stands on it’s own merits considering the amount of money being discussed and the potential liability of the situation!

Your advice is paramount to betting on a horse at a horse race where the odds are 50/1 and placing your bet to “Win”, if I want sound advice on contamination do I ask a man on the street or do I go find an "Environmental testing and abatement company?

You and I don’t buy real estate based on someones word, we do our due diligence and check the comp’s from the MLS system, we recognize the accuracy of those MLS numbers. We do not depend on the accuracy of things like the tax assessors value, zillow or aol home values because these numbers are known to be wrong, unreliable for accurate values.

Just like we would not go to a plumber to design a home, or we would not go to a roofer to frame a home, we look for accurate professional answers when our money is on the line!

It’s nice that the owner will pay for testing, but those test’s need to be done by a professional third party who does not have special interests and has reliable expertise to insure our friend rookie can make a known decision as to the risk / reward and liabilities of this type of investment!

Let’s talk about the realities of business, I use OPM in every way possible and I am certainly not ashamed to admit it, 10 years ago I started into a business my family had experience and records in going back to the civil war, but know one had tried to successfully go back into mining since 1945.

I have not worked for another company as an employee since 1999, and never will go back! But let me tell you the realities of starting your own business.

In 1999 when I left my senior managers position in the construction industry in california I solicited three investments for about $2m dollars, we bought three placer gold operations with a little equipment and were able to cover the labor and expenses to start, gold was $265 an ounce and we were producing gold for a cash cost that first year of about $120 an ounce, so for every ounce pulled from the ground we gross profited about $140 per ounce, not bad so when we took in our raw gold and added up our refiners tickets we recovered a little over 10,000 ounces, our revenues were a little over an equivelent $2.38 million dollars (Gold is not pure in it’s raw state so although we collected 10,000 ounces the pure equivelent was about 9,000 / 999 pure ounces.

But with gold being a comodity our investors agreed to take half there investment back in raw gold that first year and we had the capital to not only restart the next year but two of our investors agreed to re-loan there capital alloowing us to buy two more mines, so the second summer we added additional pieces of equipment and increased our production to 24 hour a day operations.

The second year we started doing exploration testing to “Prove up” known reserves in the ground and start the process of meeting the federal 43-101 standard for “Proven, Probable and infered” reserves in the ground, the compliance to 43-101 was a key to the company being able to capitalize and use our reserves for colateral.

Second year we were able to pull about 15,000 ounces and we completely paid our original investors and was able to add the ability to process an additional 500 tons an hour, so going into our third year we continued to expand and we still owed a yearly royalty of 2% of the net on the mines to our original investors, but we were debt free, continued testing for reserves forward of production and now owned about a million dollars in free and clear rolling stock equipment and about a half million in processing plants.

The third year we produced about 25,000 ounces about six million in revenue and our cash cost of production was about $2.7m so we pulled about $3.3 million in equivelent cash value profit that year, we acquired another 5 mines that 3rd summer and increase production ability by over double going into the end of the third year. That 2003 year we developed our first residential project of 60 units of townhomes at an average price of $145k and an equivelent profit of about $35k a unit, we sold the development out in 8 months. The summer of 2004 we were operating 10 mines and produced 60,000 ounces, gold was going up in value and we grossed a cash equivelent of $20.2 million. We developed a couple of properties over 2004 that allowed us to sell about 160 homes that year of about $165k average price and about a $35k profit, we produced gold at a cash equivelent of about $7.8 million and we started buying our own reverse rotary drill rigs to drill our sites and help us save what we were paying on the open market for test drilling, we also bought a core drilling rig to start drilling the hard rock side of some of our properties.

We now owned about 3.5 million in equipment and processing plants outright, we started buying and selling mining equipment that year and started doing welding and fabricating for some other mines around our yards, we also bought an Anthracite coal mine in 2004 and increased production and shifts in that operation, it is still producing today. Anthracite coal is selling at about $140 a ton and we produce it for about $50 dollars a ton. We currently sell about 125,000 tons a year.

In 2005 we acquired a property in south america of about 160k acres in the Amazon Jungle, we continued to increase our mining operations and actually created companies for drilling, selling mining equipment, welding and fabricating, exploration, mine development, mine operating and equipment rental in 2005, our production hit some 75k ounces, we were doing a little over a million in revenue in each of our services companies and acquired a mine in australia and two in South Africa, and an underground mine in Canada, we built and developed about 320 homes in 2005 that sold in the mid 150k range and profited about $30k a house.

In 2006 we acquired a open pit coal mine with over 10m tons of coal, we ventured into the beginnings of providing capital for businesses in information technologies, education, construction management, security and financial services, in 2006 we continued growing our business, we built and sold about 500 units of townhouses and homes, and expanded our mining holdings by almost double our previous year.

The reality is that gold has gone up by almost 400 percent in the last 10 years, but our cost today to produce an ounce of placer is about $180 dollars cash equivelent per ounce and underground we produce gold at about $285 per ounce, coal is very much in demand and we create over half our power in the US by clean burning coal, the reality is if you delegate responsibilities, stay away from micro managing and hire professional people who know what there doing you can certainly grow a huge business over 10 years, I own all of our mining interests outright and I own controling interests and operational control of all of our other investments (Companies) and when we build or develop we borrow every buck we can get and I own the net from every development.

I am sorry to tell FD Jake you made this personal, you have a bad attitude, and you had better get used to the idea like I did 10 years ago that there will always be bigger businesses than mine, and I have no problem admitting when I am wrong or when I need to defer to someone who knows more than I do!

I have been very careful to not burn bridges and to listen before I speak but your little tyrade here has been nothing but insulting, very un-professional and slanderous!

I have worked my ass off to get where I am at, I have lost two previous personal fortunes and I have very much learned from that experience, but know one should put capital “At Risk” with out knowing and understanding the risks and liabilities and doing things on the cheap can create problems in the future, and no investment is worth losing your shirt over!

I don’t hold any personal grudges FD Jake but I would encourage you to change your professional manner!

Good luck to you.

                   Sincerely, 

                                   GR

No personal grudges here either…

I not only respect HOW you grew your business, I also appreciate you taking the time to share the story…

I enjoy “banging heads” every once in a while…I LEARN THINGS from doing it.

If I hadn’t questioned you on this topic I would have never LEARNED what I now know about you and your business.

Thanks for sharing!! :beer :beer

Gold River,

nice post…reminds me of Sam Walton’s autobiography.

your bias aside, where do you see spot gold going from here…it’s had that general ceiling of $1250 for what…6 months now?

I’ve been reading about a lot of manipulation to keep the price from escalating beyond the current level.

when you strip away everything else…it seems to me that it’s price has a direct correlation with the US economy’s state of affairs…and how do you reverse course on that kind of debt load? I mean…you can only hold back the floodgates for so long…

looked at another way…do you plan to hold your gold mines…or cash out…in what some consider to be a bubble mania?

-Mike

Thanks for sharing GR…

I often post how it takes money to make money and Im sticking to that…It just dawned on me how difficult this environment must be for newbies to get started who have little to no capital…Just about every deal I have done in the last 24 months has required capital (on the funding or buy side)…The threads that were titled NO MONEY DOWN etc have vanished,and for good reason…Im sure there are people out there finding deals and convincing investors to lend on ARV etc and capturing the difference etc but good luck doing that in todays market…For every one person doing it and getting it done there are 100’s failing at it…I dont know the point of my post other than spewing some thoughts…I firmly believe that real estate actually will work better with only people with real capital involved…I know there are 203k loans and in certain areas there are various programs that allow little to no money down…This is just another problem waiting to happen…Lending money to or doing business with people with no collateral or real capital involved is a problem…Think about if your broke friend asked you for a loan that you know he could never pay back, would you give it to him? Ofcourse not unless you are a compassionate sucker…Now change it around…He approaches you and says listen here is my car & title (free and clear) worth $5000…I need a $2500 loan at %x for X months…Ofcourse you would do it…Where is the risk?..There is none…Sorry for babbling…