Gutting Homes

Yes, there are circumstances when gutting a property is cheaper and easier to do that to try to repair major damage or trench and repair to replace utilities. You just have to understand when one makes sense over the other.

Hooch requested: List them please. I buy condemned property and often get a large multifamily house for 5K or less and I haven’t run into a single one that would have been faster or more cost effective to gut. Maybe that’s for the 1K property.

First if you do not draw a permit, know one but you has any idea what your doing and unless you have a construction background you probable will not do work that meets and exceeds the current building codes.

If you are drawing permits and this includes a general construction permit, a electric permit, a plumbing permit, an HVAC permit and a roofing permit if it is required.

The law say’s the building or property (1 to 4 unit resdidential property) has what is called “Grandfathering” which simple means that if you “Do not touch it” you do not have to bring it up to current codes.

There are some minor exceptions because to get a permit finalled you will need to meet fire / life / safety issues (Smoke alarms, fire extinguisher, GFI’s for water area’s, etc.)

That’s simple enough, if I buy a home in great condition say a 1983 home, I really don’t have many issues if everything works and is serviceable, even changing a furnace or hot water heater is a minor issue.

But if your going into a home that is pre 1960 and have galvanized water piping you want to replace, ungrounded wiring in the walls with bad circuits or older screw in circuit breakers or knob and tube wiring and want to replace it, if the insulation in walls and cielings is non-existant or inadiquate and you know you need new insulation.

If your house has a masonry flue through the floors and has morter that has failed and has caused leaking and threatens the structural integrity, if drain lines were the old soddered fit in old cast iron or cast iron and clay and is rotten and you need to replace it, if gas piping has coroded and rotted and is unsound and unsafe and needs replacement.

These items and a combination of these items can cause you to be better off gutting than trying to trench walls and make repairs.

The building department will make you make certain replacements if you say remove more than 30% or so of existing cielings the building inspector will probable make you remove it all and replace the whole 1 hour burn through rating at the cieling.

If you have a property that is steam heat, is not working properly and would benifit from modern HVAC, this is good reason to gut the house and start from scratch, also changing from base board heating to modern HVAC is good reason to gut a building.

Sometimes if you have modern kitchen and great baths, you gut everything but those rooms and replace everything and repair as neccessary in the good rooms and rebuild.

A good drywall crew can hang, tape & mud, and texture a 3,000 sq. ft. home in 3 to 4 days at a cost of around $6k. Your cost to gut 3,000 sq. ft. with an experienced crew is probable $3k.

Of course rebuilding includes doors, door trim, base boards, finish carpentry and priming and painting.

A good crew can re-do an interior in less than 2 days and the painter will spray a blank interior with primer then paint.

Also if you have excersive cracking due to structural problems and need to re-level a home by what ever method, this may be a reason combined with other issues to gut.

My last full gut was in Washington State 3 years ago.

Purchase $62k
Triplex 3100 sq. ft.
Made application for change to 4 plex legal status. Status Change Granted!
Gutted
Rebuilt property from heating oil to baseboard heat.
All electric re-metered to individual meters.
Water individually metered.
Everything brand new inside and out including windows and siding!
Fully permitted with General, Electrical, Plumbing, and Roofing.
Construction cost $108k
Overhead $10k
Completed in 97 days
Start to finish and completely inspected with new C of O and full compliance.
Appraised for refinance $315k
Gross Rents $2725
Has legal parking for 2 cars per unit tandem.

All units have flat top stove / oven combo units, dishwasher, fan / microwave combo units, Ice & water in door refrigerator / freezers and 3 units have stack washer dryers and the largest unit has side by side washer / dryer.
All units have garbage disposals, tile tub surrounds, and full baths.

The 1 bdrm 1 baths are 650 sq. ft. with $625 rents
The 3 bdrm 1 bath is 1100 sq. ft. with $850 rent

Landlord only pays taxes.
Common lighting is on day night sensors with one common light wired to each unit.

This property sold for $335k in fall 2007.
GR

Too bad that property didn’t cash flow because you gutted it.

AND, I get a permit on all of the houses that I buy that are really bad, because code enforcement is on them like fly’s on Sh*t. These totally wasted multifamilies cash flow nicely afterwards, look better than the surrounding property, and I “gut” nothing more than what is needed. A wall or two, trenches, etc. AND I DO IT ALL FASTER AND SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER THAN YOU.

Am I not communicating in english, or am I writing in a French forum! (poly vu francea’)

Finish property March 2006
3 - 1 Bdrm / 1 bath units - 650 sq. ft. = $625.00 per unit or $1875 gross
1 - 3 Bdrm / 1 bath unit - 1100 sq.ft. = $850.00 per unit or $850 gross
Monthly - $2,725 gross

My original mortgage after permit was final and new certificate of occupancy was issued.

Gross Rents = $2725

$190k 1st T.D. 60% 30 years @ 7.5% = $1329 month
Insurance Allstate $65 month
Taxes $108 month $1300 year

Total Expense $1568 month

Cash flow!!! $1223

SALE: November 2007

3 - 1 Bdrm / 1 bath units - 650 sq. ft. = $700 per unit or $2,100 gross
1 - 3 Bdrm / 1 bath unit - 1100 sq. ft. = $1000 per unit or $1,000 gross

Gross Rents = $3,100

301,500 1st T.D. 90% 30 years @ 8.0% = $2,213 month
Insurance = $65 month
Taxes = $108 month $1300 year

Total Expense = $2,386

Cash Flow!!! $714

Sold November 2007
Sale price = $335,000
Realtor Fees & closing costs = $27,000
Net = $308,000
My 1st T.D. = $190,000

Net Profit $118,000 My pocket!

That sure looks pretty positive to me!
And dam if we didn’t gut it to the frame!

Am I not communicating in english, or am I writing in a French forum! (poly vu francea’)

I said that it doesn’t cash flow, not that you didn’t make money from a flip. I am now thinking that I am the one that is writing in the French forum!

You say you took a 7.5 % loan out for 190K. Kind of shocking that you had a business loan for 30 years since they are not giving business loans for 30 years. 20 max today. 15 more likely. I guess you are talking about an OLD deal that is not adjusted to todays standards.

4 Units grossing $2,725 per unit per month
Gross Income: $2,725/mth = $32,700 annual
Expenses (50% rule of thumb) -16,350
NOI: $16,350
190k@7.5%/20yrs: $18,367
Yearly Cash Flow $-2,017 NET LOSS ---- OUCH!!! FLIP IT QUICK!!!

So this super successful GUT deal of yours wouldn’t work in todays market, would it? NOT for RENTAL PROPERTY! Possibly the flip ONLY.

Now lets do that over 30 years as you may have been able to get a 30 year commercial loan in the bubble.
4 Units grossing $2,725 per unit per month
Gross Income: $2,725/mth = $32,700 annual
Expenses (50% rule of thumb) -16,350
NOI: $16,350
190k@7.5%/30yrs: $15,942
Yearly Cash Flow $408
Monthly Cash Flow $34. Cash flow per unit per month @ 4 units = $8.50 per door. LOL

LOOKS LIKE YOUR GUT EVEN BACK THEN WAS A CRAP DEAL!!!

Sorry there buddy. You might be able to fool a newbie but you can’t pull the wool over my eyes. It’s interesting how you left out most of your operating expenses. Or maybe you just don’t understand real estate math or the costs involved? :biggrin

Hey Hooch,

             The only problem I see is the 50% (Fifty Percent) rule does not apply to residential property. (Real Estate)

A one (1), two (2), three (3) or four (4) unit property is considered residential property.

The fifty percent rule was created for multi-unit residential property (commercial apartments) not for residential use.

There are not the same expenses in residential as there are in commercial.

Know one who has experience in real estate is going to walk up to a residential property and immediately take 50% off the potential rents!

But I liked what you said anyway, even if it’s wrong!!!

And I think anyone in this forum would agree that owning a brand new property for a rental your going to have very minimal repairs and maintence the first 7 to 10 years. (I think the extended warranty on the appliances was 4 or 5 years and the contractors warranty was 2 or 3 years.

I am surprised you find any properties to invest in, if you automatically take 50% of rents right off the top, in fact that would mean that we would have to get almost twice the market rents or buy the property brand new for 50 cents on the dollar to make a residential property an investment.

Dam, I knew I was doing something wrong.

Now you were so quick to take 50% (50% rule of thumb) just what is this money being spent on?

In my properties case the water bill (paid by tenant) covers water, sewer, and trash. There is no common electric bill. No heating expense since it’s all electric. No snow removal because it only snows about 4 inches total a year in 1/2 to 2 inch storms and melts quickly.

There is zero lawn to cut. No required maintence to operate and in the almost 20 months I owned it never had a plugged toilet.

The only thing it should have and was stated when I was selling it was a vacancy factor, but the area average was about 4% or the equivelant of one unit empty for two (2) months per year.

And I happen to know my buyer was also managing it themselves so no management fee, but you tell me who gets the 50%?

Santa Clause???

                 GR

The only problem I see is the 50% (Fifty Percent) rule does not apply to residential property. (Real Estate)

Sorry but Garden apartments were also included. They did NOT just include highrise apartments. (which by the way have LOWER expenses and are MORE profitable than garden apartment complexes, 1 roof 30 apartments) One roof, 2 or 4 units on the Garden. Just more of a blocky shape than a standard quadraplex house,But essentially the exact same thing.

The fifty percent rule was created for multi-unit residential property (commercial apartments) not for residential use.

You won’t be able to squeeze your way out of this one buddy. Garden apartments which are all over this country due to their popularity ARE included. We can’t always be right ALL of the time. In this Case I proved that your “gut” was not necessarily a good idea for rental property but your numbers showed that you did fine on the flip. I am wrong sometimes too, but in this case you are wrong.

There are not the same expenses in residential as there are in commercial.

That’s right, LESS expenses in large multi-unit buildings under one single roof. So if it is the way you say it is you need to ADD MORE than 50% to the expenses.

Know one who has experience in real estate is going to walk up to a residential property and immediately take 50% off the potential rents!

Wrong again!

And I think anyone in this forum would agree that owning a brand new property for a rental your going to have very minimal repairs and maintence the first 7 to 10 years. (I think the extended warranty on the appliances was 4 or 5 years and the contractors warranty was 2 or 3 years.

So when I put new wiring via trenching, new plumming by gutting 1 or 2 walls, etc. How will I have MORE repairs and maintence for the first 7 to 10 years than you do on your “guts?” I won’t, It’s all new too. The difference is that I rehabbed the sheetrock or plaster where you ripped it all out.

I am surprised you find any properties to invest in, if you automatically take 50% of rents right off the top, in fact that would mean that we would have to get almost twice the market rents or buy the property brand new for 50 cents on the dollar to make a residential property an investment.

If you read some of my posts you will see HOW I find my deals and what I pay for them. My deals do not come off MLS with exception of an occasional REO. I buy wholesale.

Now you were so quick to take 50% (50% rule of thumb) just what is this money being spent on?

Your “property management” time, you don’t work for free, do ya? Vacancy, advertising, insurance, maintenance, property taxes, repairs, supplies, utilities, new roof, furnace went out, lawn mower, gas, portion of vehicle mileage, income and capital gains taxes, loan origination fees, interest, office expense, snow removal, dump fees from what the tenant left, payroll, and the list goes on and on. There are costs to doing business and you either CONSIDER them or you PRETEND that they don’t exist. Those who pretend that they don’t exist STILL pay them.

No required maintence to operate and in the almost 20 months I owned it never had a plugged toilet.

Now Now Now, lets not start telling fibs. I am sure that you are still talking about the same property since that was what our discussion was about. And you already said this.

Finish property March 2006…SALE: November 2007

The only thing it should have and was stated when I was selling it was a vacancy factor, but the area average was about 4% or the equivelant of one unit empty for two (2) months per year.

There is A LOT more than that that you left out. As I already told you, you either don’t fully understand real estate math or you thought you were talking to a bunch of newbies who wouldn’t know any better. I will guess on the more respectable side that you don’t fully understand real estate math.

It’s OK there buddy. Don’t get the panties in a bundle. You can’t know everything! :biggrin

:argue

Wow its getting deep in here! :flush

Lets go get a :beer!

LOL, No negativity intended. Just honesty. And I honestly think that Gold River felt like he had a good rental but in reality it was a good flip. GR is a good guy and for the most part contributes very solid info around here. :bigok

You two might as well be arguing over FERRARI’S VS FORDS…

Hooch is near ROANOKE VA…You can buy 2000 sq. ft houses down there that need rehab for $5000. People there work for slave wages. He deals with gangs, pit bulls, shootings and every other imaginable kind of BULLSH*T know to humans…
I’VE BOUGHT AND SOLD HOUSES IN ROANOKE…The last thing I would want to be is a slum lord in that City.

HE CAN HAVE IT!!!

Comparing Hooch’s market to Gold River’s is ridiculus…Two completely different areas with completely different price structures and there for…completely different METHODS for success in those markets.

Gold River is in a completely different market…He made money on his property…WHAT ELSE MATTERS???

But…I will say this about ole Hooch…He’s knows his stuff and is a very smart businessman…Roanoke is a tough City…He owns lots of low income sh*tter type properties…and HE MAKES MONEY WITH THEM!!!

That ain’t easy. :beer

We were discussing whether or not it cash flowed FD. And it didn’t. That was the entire conversation. And the original point, if he rehabbed it rather than gutting it all new it would have cash flowed nicely.

So, one must read the entire post and fully understand the conversation prior to acting as if comparing two markets had anything to do with it. The original conversation was about gutting property but you may not have fully captured that from this thread because we started debating it in another unrelated thread and Gold moved it over here for a complete single focused discussion.

Point made… gutting property is NEVER more cost effective than rehabbing it and the flip shows on TV are not a good place to learn the proper way to make money on a deal.

Hooch is near ROANOKE VA…You can buy 2000 sq. ft houses down there that need rehab for $5000. People there work for slave wages. He deals with gangs, pit bulls, shootings and every other imaginable kind of BULLSH*T know to humans…
I’VE BOUGHT AND SOLD HOUSES IN ROANOKE…The last thing I would want to be is a slum lord in that City.

And, all of Roanoke is not like that. Just the getto areas. I don’t only own property in those areas. I buy low income housing in warzones which almost 100% blacks and low income blue collar neighborhoods that are almost 100% white. Big difference in the two as far as crime goes but the rents and property values are the same. Roanoke is highly segregated. As I recall, it is the 84th most segregated town in the United States which is pretty significant considering the number of towns.

I wasn’t disagreeing with any of your points Hooch…Just noticed the PRICE differences between where he is and where you are…Those high end markets can be very tough for cash flows…Believe me…New England is insane…

BUT, he got a great price on the purchase. My sole point is that he would have had that house cash flowing nicely if he didn’t gut it.

Got it!!

Hey…I really like the devil head!! It’s you man.

Thanks FD! I must live up to my reputation. A mean spirited, hateful anti-christ who is also the Grand Dragon of the Klu Klux Klan. Your liberal cohorts amuse me. :twisted :gored :argue :evil :bash :cussing :guns :grim :eek2 :eviltongue :eyecrazy :grinch :evilking :smashpc