Fees on the HUD 1

Hello All,

I am a new investor starting out in short sales. I got into this because I am a RE Agent that realized there is more money to be made Investing in RE rather that Selling it. I am working with a guy now that has done several ss and he has been putting fees on the HUD 1 for the bank that are not “legit” fees. Basically they just pad his pocket. He is doing this in hopes that the lender overlooks them and pays them. Also on one HUD he put amounts between $400-$800 where the taxes and assessments go. My question is is this common practice or is he crossing a line that he shouldnt be.

In my opinion this should not be done. Its does not feel right. I am all about making money the legal way and I think there is a lot of money to be made that way.

You should safely assume that anything termed as not being “legit” isn’t normal. If I am understanding the situation, can lose his license and go to jail for defrauding the bank/buyer, etc.

Always trust your instincts. You’re right in thinking it’s fraud. Always do business in a ethical way and you sleep better too!

How do you know those fees are not legit. In my neck of the woods taxes and assessments are usually paid for by the seller. Can you give more detailed examples of these fees?
Maybe he is just listing all the fees a buyer normally pays onto the sellers side in hopes that the lender will help pay his closing cost. Also remember that the short sale hud-1 is just an estimate. The lenders know this and if they feel your fees are out of line they will not pay for them.
There is nothing wrong with him loading down the sellers side with legitimate fees. If the lender accepts his offer they obviously know how much they expect to net in the end. That is all they care about, the net. Is he asking for cash back after closing?

Am I missing something here?

He is putting in like a “Regulatory Compliance Fee” to his company then just giving it back to me or another agent or keeping it himself, depending on who’s listing it is. He also tries to throw in a “Short Sale Negotiation Fee” and when the bank rejects one of these he just changes the amount from $1500 to $1000 and changes the place on the HUD.

I agree that the bank just wants the net…but isnt it just shady and unethical to do this? I am not going to do it. I like the way you think reiauctions.

I agree those add on fees do sound a bit shady. I do believe in trying to get them to pay for as much as possible. Many lenders will allow 2%-3% to go towards the sellers costs so why not take advantage of it.
On a short I am working right now the lender is allowing $1500 towards the sellers closing based upon an estimated hud-1 I submitted. As it turns out actual closing cost for the items I claimed turned out to be $600. You’d better believe I will move $900 of my costs to their side. I guess this makes me just as bad as that other guy.

If you really want to be kosher make a really low offer and then offer to pick up all costs.

This might be a stupid question but where exactly do these fees going on the HUD? Won’t most banks just look at their net on line 504, I’m assuming the fees wouldn’t get deducted from that so why would they care that much? What lines on the HUD would these fees go under?

I might be missing something very basic here.

Hope this helps… :beer


Section A. This Section requires no entry of information.

Section B. Check appropriate loan type and complete the remaining items as applicable.

Section C. This section provides a notice regarding settlement costs and requires no additional entry of information.

Section D. Fill in the names and current mailing address and zip code of the Borrower. Where there is more than one Borrower, the name and address of each one is required. Use a supplementary page if needed to list multiple Borrowers.

Section E. Fill in the names and current mailing address and zip code of the Seller. Where there is more than one Seller, the name and address of each one is required. Use a supplementary page if needed to list multiple Sellers.

Section F. Fill in the name, current mailing address and zip code of the Lender.

Section G. The street address of the property being sold should be given. If there is no street address, a brief legal description or other location (such as GPS coordinates) of the property should be inserted. In all cases give the zip code of the property.

Section H. Fill in the name, address, and zip code of the settlement agent; address and zip code of “place of settlement”.

Section I. Date of Settlement

Section J. Summary of Borrower’s Transaction.

[i]Line 101[/i] is for the Gross sales price of the property being sold ( The Sales Price), excluding the price of any items of tangible personal property if the Borrower and Seller have agreed to a separate price for such items.

[i]Line 102[/i] is for the Gross sales price of any items of tangible personal property excluded from Line 101.  Personal Property could include such items as carpets, drapes, stoves, refrigerators, etc.  What constitutes personal property varies from state to state.  Manufactured homes are not considered personal property for this purpose.

[i]Line 103[/i] is used to record the total charges to the Borrower detailed in Section L and totaled on Line 1400.

[i]Lines 104 and 105[/i] are for additional amounts owed by the Borrower or items paid by the Seller prior to settlement but reimbursed by the Borrower at settlement.  For example, the balance in the Seller’s reserve account held in connection with an existing loan, if assigned to the Borrower in a loan assumption case, will be entered here.  These lines will also be used when a tenant in the property being sold has not yet paid the rent, which the Borrower will collect, for a period of time prior to the settlement.  The lines will also be used to indicate the treatment for any tenant security deposit.  The Seller will be credited on Lines 404-405.

[i]Lines 106 through 112[/i] are for items which the Seller had paid in advance, and for which the Borrower must therefore reimburse the Seller.  Examples of items for which adjustments will be made may include taxes and assessments paid in advance for an entire year or other period, when settlement occurs prior to the expiration of the year or other period for which they were paid.  Additional examples include flood and hazard insurance premiums, if the Borrower is being substituted as an insured under the same policy; mortgage insurance in loan assumption cases; planned unit development or condominium association assessments paid in advance; fuel or other supplies on hand, purchased by the Seller, which the Borrower will use when Borrower Takes possession of the property; and ground rent paid in advance.

[i]Line 120[/i] is for the total of Lines 101 through 112.

[i]Line 201[/i] is for any amount paid against the sales price prior to settlement.

[i]Line 202 [/i]is for the amount of the new loan made by the Lender or first user loan (a loan to finance construction of a new structure or purchase of manufactured home where the structure was constructed for sale or the manufactured home was purchased for purposes of resale and the loan is used as or converted to a loan to finance purchase by the first user).  For other loans covered by Regulation X which finance construction of a new structure or purchase of a manufactured home, list the sales price o the land on Line 104, the construction cost or purchase price of manufactured home on Line 105 (Line 101 would be left blank in this instance) and amount of the loan on Line 202.  The remainder of the form should be completed taking into account adjustments and charges related to the temporary financing and permanent financing and which are known at the date of settlement.

[i]Line 203[/i] is used for cases in which the Borrower is assuming or taking title subject to an existing loan or lien on the property.

[i]Lines 204 - 209[/i] are used for other items paid by or on behalf of the Borrower.  Examples include cases in which the Seller has taken a trade-in or other property from the Borrower in part payment for the property being sold.  They may also be used in cases in which Seller (typically a builder) is making an “allowance” to the Borrower for carpets or drapes which the Borrower is to purchase separately.  Lines 204 - 209 can also be used to indicate any Seller financing arrangements or other new loan not listed in Line 202.  For example, if the Seller takes a note from the Borrower for part of the sales price, insert the principal amount of the note with a brief explanation on Lines 204 - 209.

[i]Line 210 through 219[/i] are for items which have not yet been paid, and which the Borrower is expected to pay, but which are attributable in part to a period of time prior to the settlement.  In jurisdictions in which taxes are paid late in the tax year, most cases will show the proration of taxes in these lines.  Other examples include utilities used but not paid for by the Seller, rent collected in advance by the Seller from a tenant for a period extending beyond the settlement date, and interest on loan assumptions.

[i]Line 220[/i] is for the total of Lines 201 through 219.

[i]Lines 301 and 302[/i] are summary lines for the Borrower.  Enter total in Line 120 on Line 301.  Enter total in Line 220 on Line 302.

[i]Line 303[/i] may indicate either the case required from the Borrower at settlement (the usual case in a purchase transaction) or cash payable to the Borrower at settlement (if, for example, the Borrower’s deposit against the sales price (earnest money) exceeded the Borrower’s cash obligation in the transaction).  Subtract Line 302 from Line 301 and enter the amount of cash due to or from the Borrower at settlement on Line 303.  The appropriate box should be checked.

Section K. Summary of the Seller’s Transaction. Instructions for the use of Lines 101 and 102 and 104 – 112 above, apply also to Lines 401 – 412. Line 420 is for the total of Lines 401 through 412.

[i]Line 501[/i] is used if the Seller’s real estate broker or other party who is not the settlement agent has received and holds the deposit against the sales rice (earnest money) which exceeds the fee or commission owed to that party, and if that party will render the excess deposit directly to the Seller, rather than through the settlement agent, the amount of excess deposit should be entered on Line 501 and the amount of the total deposit (including commissions) should be entered on Line 201.

Line 502 is used to record the total charges to the Seller detailed in Section L and totaled on Line 1400.

[i]Line 503[/i] is used if the Borrower is assuming or taking title subject to existing liens which are to be deducted from sales price.

[i]Lines 504 and 505[/i] are used for the amounts (including any accrued interest) of any first and/or second loans which will be paid as part of the settlement.

[i]Line 506[/i] is used for deposits paid by the Borrower to Seller or other party who is not the settlement agent.  Enter the amount of the deposit in Line 201 on Line 506 unless Line 501 is used or the party who is not the settlement agent transfers all or part of the deposit to the settlement agent in which case the settlement agent will note in parentheses on Line 507 the amount of the deposit which is being disbursed as proceeds and enter in column for Line 506 the amount retained by the above described party for settlement services.  If the settlement agent holds the deposit insert a note in Line 507 that indicates that the deposit is being disbursed as proceeds.

[i]Lines 506 through 509[/i] may be used to list additional liens, which must be paid off through the settlement to clear title to the property.  Other payoffs of Seller obligations should be shown on Lines 506 – 509 (but not on Lines 1303 – 1305).  They may also be used to indicate funds to be held by the settlement agent for the payment of water, fuel, or other utility bills that cannot be prorated between the parties at settlement because the amounts used by the Seller prior to settlement are not yet known.  Subsequent disclosure of the actual amount of these post-settlement items to be paid from settlement funds is optional.  Any amounts entered on Lines 204 – 209 including Seller financing arrangements should also be entered on Lines 506 – 509.

Instructions for the use of Lines 510 through 519 are the same as those for Lines 210 to 219 above.

[i]Line 520[/i] is for the total of Lines 501 through 519

[i]Lines 601 and 602[/i] are summary lines for the Seller.  Enter total in Line 420 on Line 610.  Enter total in Line 520 on Line 602.

[i]Line 603[/i] may indicate either the cash required to be paid to the Seller at settlement (the usual case in a purchase transaction) or cash payable by the Seller at settlement.  Subtract Line 602 from Line 601 and enter the amount of cash due to or from the Seller at settlement on Line 603.  The appropriate box should be checked.

Section L. Settlement Charges.
For all items except for those paid t and retained by the Lender, the name of the person or firm ultimately receiving the payment should be shown. In the case of “no cost” or “no point” loans, the charge to be paid by the lender to an affiliated or independent service provider should be shown as P.O.C. (Paid Outside of Closing) and should not be used in computing totals. Such charges also include indirect payments or back-funded payments to mortgage brokers that arise from the settlement transaction. When used, “P.O.C.” should be placed in the appropriate lines next to the identified item, not in the columns themselves.

Line 700 is used to enter the sales commission charged by the sales agent or broker.  If the sales commission is based on a percentage of the price, enter the sales price, the percentage, and the dollar amount of the total commission paid by the Seller.

[i]Lines 701 – 702[/i] are to be used to state the split of the commission where the settlement agent disburses portions of the commission to two or more sales agents or brokers.

Good Luck! :beer

Hope this helps… :beer PART 2


Lines 701 – 702 are to be used to state the split of the commission where the settlement agent disburses portions of the commission to two or more sales agents or brokers.

[i]Line 703[/i] is used to enter the amount of sales commission disbursed at settlement.  If the sales agent or broker is retaining a part of the deposit against the sale price (earnest money) to apply towards the sales agent’s or broker’s commission, include in Line 703 only that part of the commission being disbursed at settlement and insert a note on Line 704 indicating the amount the sales agent or broker is retaining as a “P.O.C.” item.

[i]Line 704[/i] may be used for additional charges made by the sales agent or broker, or for a sales commission charged to the Borrower, which will be disbursed by the settlement agent.

[i]Line 801[/i] is used to record the fee charged by the Lender for processing or originating the loan.  If this fee is computed as a percentage of the loan amount, enter the percentage in the blank indicated.

[i]Line 802[/i] is used to record the loan discount or “points” charged by the Lender, and, if it is computed as a percentage of the Loan amount, enter the percentage in the blank indicated.

[i]Line 803[/i] is used for appraisal fees if there is a separate charge for the appraisal.  Appraisal fees for HUD and VA loans are also included on Line 803.

[i]Line 804[/i] is used for the cost of the credit report if there is a charge separate from the origination fee.

[i]Line 805[/i] is used only for inspections by the Lender or the Lender’s agents.  Charges for other pest or structural inspections required to be stated by these instructions should be entered in Lines 1301 – 1305.

[i]Line 806[/i] should be used for an application fee required by a private mortgage insurance company.

[i]Line 807[/i] is provided for convenience in using the form for loan assumption transactions.

[i]Lines 808 – 811[/i] are used to list additional items payable in connection with the loan including a CLO Access fee, a mortgage broker fee, fees for real estate property taxes or other real property charges.

[i]Lines 901 – 905.[/i]  This series is used to record the items which the Lender requires (but which are not necessarily paid to the lender, i.e., FHA mortgage insurance premium) to be paid at the time of settlement, other than reserves collected by the Lender and recorded in 1000 series.

[i]Line 901[/i] is used if interest is collected at settlement for a part of a month or other period between settlement and the date from which interest will be collected with the first regular monthly payment.  Enter that amount here and include the per diem charges.  If such interest is not collected until the first regular monthly payment, no entry should be made on Line 901.

[i]Line 902[/i] is used for mortgage insurance premiums due and payable at settlement, except reserves collected by the Lender and recorded in the 100 series.  A lump sum mortgage insurance premium paid at settlement should be inserted on Line 902, with a note that indicates that the premium is for the life of the loan.

[i]Line 903[/i] is used for hazard insurance premiums which the Lender requires to be paid at the time of settlement except reserves collected by the Lender and recorded in the 1000 series.

[i]Line 904 and 905[/i] are used to list additional items required by the Lender (except for reserves collected by the Lender and recorded in the 1000 series) including flood insurance, mortgage life insurance, credit life insurance and disability insurance premiums.  These lines are also used to list amounts paid at settlement for insurance not required by the Lender.

After itemizing individual deposits in the 100 series using single – item accounting, the servicer shall make an adjustment based on aggregate accounting.  This adjustment equals the difference between the deposit required under aggregate accounting and the sum of the deposits required under single-item accounting.  The computation steps for both accounting methods are set out in 3500.17(d).  The adjustment will always be a negative number or zero (-0-).  The settlement agent shale enter the aggregate adjustment amount on a final line in the 1000 series of the HUD – 1 or HUD – 1A statement.

During the phase-in period, as defined in 3500.17(b), an alternative procedure is available.  If a servicer has not yet conducted the escrow account analysis to determine the aggregated accounting stating balance, the settlement agent may initially calculate the 1000 series deposits for HUD -1 and HUD 1A settlement statement using single-item analysis with a one-month cushion (unless the mortgage loan documents indicate a smaller amount).  In the escrow account analysis conducted within 45 days of settlement, the servicer shall adjust the escrow account to reflect the aggregate accounting balance.

[i]Lines 1100 – 1113.[/i]  This series covers title charges and charges by attorneys.  The title charges include a variety of services performed by the title companies or others and include fees directly related to transfer of title (title examination, title search, documents preparation) and fees for title insurance.  The legal charges include fees for Lender’s, Sellers’s or Buyer’s attorney, or the attorney preparing the title work.  The series also includes any fees for settlement or closing agents and notaries.  In many jurisdictions the same person (for example, an attorney or a title insurance company) performs several of the services listed in this series and makes a single overall charge for such services.  In such cases, enter the overall fee on Line 1107 (for attorneys), or Line 1108 (for title companies), and enter on that line the item numbers of the services listed which are covered in the overall fee.  If this is done, no individual amounts need be entered into the borrower’s and seller’s columns for the individual items which are covered by the overall fee.  In transactions involving more than one attorney, one attorney’s fees should appear on Line 1107 and the other attorney’s fees should be on Line 1111, 112, or 1113.  If an attorney is representing  a buyer, seller, or lender and is also acting as a title agent, indicated on line 1107 which services are covered by the attorney fee and on line 1113 which services are covered by the insurance commission

[i]Line 1101[/i] is used for the settlement agent’s fee.

[i]Lines 1102 and 1103[/i] are used for the fees for the abstract or title search and title examination.  In some jurisdictions the same person both searches the title (that is, performs th enecessary research in the records) and examines title (that is, makes a determination as to what matters affect title, and provides a title report or opinion).  If such a person charges only one fee for both services, it should be entered on Line 1103 unless the person performing these tasks is an attorney or a title company in which case the fees should be entered as described in the general directions for Lines 1100 – 1113.  If separate persons perform these tasks, or if separate charges are made for searching and examination, they should be listed separately.

[i]Line 1104[/i] is used for the title insurance binder which is also known as the commitment to insure.

[i]Line 1105[/i] is used for charges for preparation of deeds, mortgages, notes, etc.  If more than on person receives a fee for such work in the same transaction, show the total paid in the appropriate column and the individual charges on the line following the word “to.”

[i]Line 1106[/i] is used for the fee charged by a notary public for authenticating the execution of settlement documents.

[i]Line 1107[/i] is used to disclose the attorney’s fees for the transaction.  The instructions are discussed in the general directions for Lines 1100 – 1113.  This line should include any charges by an attorney to represent a buyer, seller, or lender in the real estate transaction.

[i]Lines 1108 – 1110[/i] are used for information regarding title insurance.  Enter the total charge for title insurance (except for the cost of the title binder) on Line 1108.  Enter on Lines 1109 and 1110 the individual charges for the Lender’s and owner’s policies.  Note that these charges are not carried over into the Borrower’s and Seller’s columns, since to  do so would result in a duplication of the amount in Line 1108.  If a combination Lender’s/owner’s policy is purchased, show this amount as an additional entry on Lines 1109 and 1110.


Lines 1111 – 1113 are for the entry of other title charges not already itemized. Examples in some jurisdictions would include a fee to a public tax service, a fee to a county tax collector for a tax certificate, or a fee to a public title registrar for a certificate of title in a Torrens Act transaction. Line 1113 should be used to disclose services that are covered by the commission of an attorney acting as a title agent when Line 1107 is already being used to disclose the fees and services of the attorney in representing the buyer, seller, or lender in the real estate transaction.

[i]Lines 1201 – 1205[/i] are used for government recording and transfer charges.  Recoding and transfer charges should be itemized.  Additional recording or transfer charges should be listed on Lines 1204 and 1205.

[i]Lines 1301 and 1302[/i] are used for fees for survey, pest inspection, radon inspection, lead-based paint inspection, or other similar inspections.

[i]Lines 1303 – 1305[/i] are used for any other settlement charges not referable to the categories listed above on the HUD-1, which are required to be stated by these instructions.  Examples may include structural inspections or pre-sale inspection of heating, plumbing, or electrical equipment.  These inspection charges may include a fee for insurance or warranty coverage.

[i]Line 1400[/i] is for the total settlement charges paid from Borrower’s funds and Seller’s funds.  These totals are also entered on Lines 103 and 502, respectively, in sections J and K.

Good Luck! :beer

thanks for that info… i guess what I’m really confused on is why does it matter what fees you add because won’t line 504 (the net amount going to the lender be the same)? So technically if your offer is $110k and your payoff to the mortgage company (only one) is $90k then the other $20k can be put to taxes, fees, commission, whatever but they will still see they are netting $90k. How is that really different than if you offered $90k and the net payoff is $90k and then you just agreed to pay the fees.

In the first scenario you would have to get a mortgage for $110k and in the second scenario you would have to get a mortgage for $90k. So in the first scenario you would just be paying the extra $20k via your own mortgage.

If someone can clarify this that would be great, I feel like I am missing something here.

John,

Yes the lender does care about the net to them, but they also care about what fees are being paid. If you think about it from their point of view, if they are agreeing to take a discount, they do not want to see excessive fees going to others. Within reason they will allow realtor fees, some closing costs, etc, but sometimes they even ask the realtor to reduce their commission.

Thank you sooooo much foreclosure negotiator! You are very helpful.

Foreclosure Negotiator<

I am working on a SS and your info is very helpful. But I would like to know who completes the HUD 1 statement? please help!

If you are trying to negotiate the short sale you typically fill out a PRELIMINARY HUD 1 and turn it in to the lender. You will want to provide one to the title company also so when they do the final hud 1 they can match your numbers with their and everything should line up.

It is your responsibility to provide a preliminary HUD1 with your short sale offer. How you obtain this HUD1 is up to you. I used to use YourHUD1.com. You could contact a title company and see if they will do one for you. Have seen title companies do this for FREE, if they believe they will be the title company to close the deal, and I have seen them charge up to $100. It will depend on who you use. YourHUD1.com has always been free to use also, that along with their explanation of each line item makes it easy for me to do.

When you get to the final closing whatever title company is handling the deal should produce a final HUD1 that should be stamped as authentic. Generally the short sale lender will want to see this notarized / stamped copy to compare to the one you provided in the short sale package…the one they used to determine whether or not to approve the short sale. They are checking to make sure they match and that you did not do something that they were not aware of, or approved of.

GooD Luck! :beer

Thanks for the feedback…

[quote author=Foreclosure Negotiator link=topic=29801.msg158118#msg158118 date=1199365037]
It is your responsibility to provide a preliminary HUD1 with your short sale offer. How you obtain this HUD1 is up to you. I used to use YourHUD1.com. You could contact a title company and see if they will do one for you. Have seen title companies do this for FREE, if they believe they will be the title company to close the deal, and I have seen them charge up to $100. It will depend on who you use. YourHUD1.com has always been free to use also, that along with their explanation of each line item makes it easy for me to do.

When you get to the final closing whatever title company is handling the deal should produce a final HUD1 that should be stamped as authentic. Generally the short sale lender will want to see this notarized / stamped copy to compare to the one you provided in the short sale package…the one they used to determine whether or not to approve the short sale. They are checking to make sure they match and that you did not do something that they were not aware of, or approved of.

GooD Luck! :beer

Can you supply another address for yourhud1 or another site
Thanks
Gary

hello,

I didn’t want to start another Hud1 thread so I posted here instead. I have no doubt that this is the most complicated form for the SS investor to provide. Anyway, how much detail do I need on my preliminary HuD? Some of the information I will find out as the deal progresses and finally comes to close right? So initially do i just concern myself with purchase price, taxes, and insurance? What about all of the title company and attorney fees? I won’t know what these are until I hand over everything to the title company along with the purchase contract. I will also do a title search before I close so there will be fees in addition here also. Do I just take 2-3% of purchase price and use that to cover closing costs? If so how would I show this on the Hud.

Perhaps I should give the purchase agreement to a title company and tell them that everything is contingent on SS being accepted. Then again I don’t have a lot of time left before auction so I need to get this doc finished asap.

Thanks guys, I’m almost there.

I know my competitors charge a 3% negotiation fee on the HUD and it can be done. That being said is it Right? I say NO

Its as simple as saying OK we are now at 100k can we make it 103k and pay my company 3k for our time and efforts if we show it on the HUD

IF we were to do that (and we never do) we could also either lower the Realtors Commission to justify the payout, or we would get the Short Sale done then add it back into the price to allow the difference bringing the price of the house up.

No as far as the HUD goes I would have a title company do it if you are just getting started in Short Sales as if you mess up the HUD it could mess up the Deal the Preliminary HUD is not as important as the final HUD yet either way the best way to get them done in a timely manner cross your t’s and dot your i’s as if there are fully completed files sitting there and your looks like junk guess who’s they are going to work on?