Cash for Clunkers

It is a hard concept for a person that does not have an agile mind, but to paraphrase Captain Kirk from Star Trek when he said it is “important to know how things work on a star ship”. Things don’t work because one side thinks it works that way. You have to listen to see when your side is right and when your side is wrong. When it is wrong you have to let it go. When it is right you have to “fight” the battle."

If one side is not right or wrong, there cannot be any right or wrong, so there is nothing to let go OR fight for… You are either saying there IS a right or wrong or you are saying the opposite… Understanding circular reasoning like the above does indeed require an agile mind to recognize it’s weakness…

“I am not sure what you mean but I think I agree with you. You do need basic geography. When you are in Los Angeles you have to know if Bakersfield is north or south. But once you figure that out the signs take you right to Bakersfield, and then Fresno, and then Sacramento etc. No signs can help you if you leave Bakersfield and then expect to see San Diego.”

Which is why I said if you are speaking locally your concept works… when you go beyond it, you need directions in some form… To know where San Diego is from Bakersfield (i.e. - NSEW) you have to, guess what… LOOK AT A MAP… It’s OK to admit you were wrong, despite your circular reasoning regarding right and wrong…

“The more I get to know you the more I admire you. It is good to know that the only reason you pay your taxes is because you want to. That is what I call a good citizen. The only reason I pay my taxes because I am scared of the IRS.”

I don’t know where you got THAT from… :rolleyes

“Employer withholding is another fact that proves the power of the IRS. Were it not for the IRS every employee would just claim 100 dependents on the W-4 and there would be no taxes with held.”

Apparently, you’ve never heard of an audit… nor are you familiar with withholdings and how it works…

" When you go to war, you don’t want an ashtray on your submarine that is going to slide off a table and cause a fire so you pay $1000 for that ashtray"

Not when you can get one for a fraction of that cost… you are making my argument for me…

“I didn’t say it was not a great man’s opinion, I said it was a man’s opinion.”

Suffice to say, his “opinion” carries more weight, being that he was THERE founding the country and then ENFORCING the laws…

“We both agree on this.” (i.e. - spending)

No, we don’t… you are OK with waste and increased costs as long as the “program du jour” is fulfilled… I’m not…

“We can be in debt. But we need to have a plan to control how much debt we have to make sure our spending growth is tied to our income growth. But this has no bearing on having an effective program or not.”

Here is where you are completely wrong… oops, there’s that word again… Mismanagement of the funds and being in debt ROBS the citizenry through INCREASED TAXES just to pay the INTEREST on the debt, which this year ALONE is $500+ BILLION DOLLARS! Never mind growing obligations through population growth, illegal alien financial pressures on ALL SYSTEMS, etc…

I can’t honestly see how you can think COST has no bearing on having an effective program or not… :banghead :banghead

We are only paying on the INTEREST ONLY, and the PRINCIPAL IN THE TRILLIONS has very little chance of EVER being paid off… and you want to give these people control of healthcare??? Based on what???

“To bring it back to real estate it is like buying a house that needs fixing up but fixing it up in a half assed way and expecting to make money. You have to do things right. If you can’t afford to fix the house right don’t buy the house.”

Yes, let’s bring it back to real estate… the government is an EXCELLENT example of someone buying a property, and then having it cost FIVE TIMES as much as they estimated, and then being underwater…

In the real world, this person would be CUT-OFF after doing this a few times… The government does this as a matter of PRACTICE, but because they can FORCE you to pay more and more taxes, WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT…

“Back to my “understand how things work”. You are actually saying you want a new health care system. I agree.”

No, you are wrong… I do not want a new health care system… the one we have now has things that can be improved, but you don’t find Americans going to other SOCIALIZED countries for treatment in any discernible size… but you DO find people with SOCIALIZED healthcare coming here for care…

“The proposed new plan makes sure we don’t have to buy a supplemental plan.”

You are again wrong… cite the page in any of the FIVE different plans (with the House version, 3200 being the most famous right now) where this is REMOTELY the case… As part of these plans, they are going to REMOVE $500 BILLION from Medicare/Medicaid… and THEN ADD the supposed 47 million to the role WITHOUT adding more doctors and nurses, etc…

“It makes sure we don’t work all our lives and end up bankrupt because we spend 90% of all our medical expenses in the last 6 months of life and leave our kids with nothing.”

You are literally delusional if you believe this… Medicare is ALREADY 10 TIMES it’s initial projected cost, only a few decades later, and that is BEFORE the boomers hit…

“I am glad to know that you support the new “healthcare initiative”. I guess you listen to both sides also.”

Because I listen to both sides, I can tell you that you are once again… wrong… :rolleyes

Well I’ll chime in on the “Cash for clunkers”. Here’s the problem. If you’re driving a true clunker, you’re likely doing it because you can’t afford a new car or you won’t qualify for financing. Most people who can actually afford a new car, have bought one already before this plan. Even if you have a stable job, you’re likely to hold off unecessary purchases because people around you are losing their jobs. People say unemployment is a lagging indicator. I say that’s :bs when you factor in the impact it has on employed people. They save their money instead of spending. When about 70% of the GDP is derived from consumer spending, anything that impacts that is a leading indicator. I don’t think this program will have a beneficial impact on the economy or taxpayers. I’d rather see an incentive rebate for ANY home purchase instead of just first time homebuyer. When you buy a home, you have to buy a TON of things to furnish and maintain it. These purchases also create tax revenue :banana. These things are never ending as we all know. THAT is what I call an economic impact.Other than gas or oil changes, what does a new car purchase do to an economy? Nothing.

It’s like your husband. You may think he is handsome but your neighbor thinks he is not. You are both right. But I have to understand why you think like you think so that I don’t insult you by pointing out a guy that looks like yoiur husband and calling him ugly.

That is my point you don’t know where that came from because you need to know how things work. Ask yourself why do you pay our taxes…answer because of the IRS THAT MEANS THE IRS IS EFFECTICE.

It is improtant to know how things work. Who does the audit? The mormons? No the IRS (Effective)

You get one for a fraction of the cost and burn down your submarine. That would be not effective. The margin of error is zero. That means cost is not an issue.

I didn’t say waste; I say you have to pay what it costs because the program has to work. It costs what it costs. If the program doesn’t work don’t’ do it. If you are going to do it has to work. I know you don’t like traffic lights that always flash red because they don’t work. That is not effective. You can’t run a government on Wal-Mart.

We are back to how things work; I would like to help you think through what you see. Are you saying that people from socialized medicine are moving here and getting into our medical system?

Phlem,
All too true.If you and I can figure it out,whats wrong with the elite graduates in washington.Maybe because they never had to balance books or run business. :biggrin

The elite grads in Washington are smart enough to play on the masses. The masses want the govt. to handle their problems. These guys find a solution to the masses’ problems, they sell that solution to the them, get elected to cushy job where there are no budgets and ride off into the sunset with their truckload of money from taxpayers and lobbyist money. They know EXACTLY what they’re doing…

Here are more reasons to disagree with cash for clunkers…

It will drive up the cost for used auto parts because cars that were scrapped for parts are now being destroyed.

It is killing the used car market so smaller dealers that don’t buy direct from the manufacturer are hurting badly.

Charities that rely on car donations are struggling because instead of donating people are trading in.

It is driving up used car prices which leaves low income families unable to afford a vehicle at all.

YOU’RE ALL RIGHT!!!..And you’re ALL missing the PAY OFF!!!

What happens when you PURPOSELY DRIVE UP the cost of USED CARS???

What happens when you CRUSH or SEIZE the engines on decent used cars THAT RUN and do this by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS???

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X0IcIxhd8ks

What happens when… for the FIRST TIME IN U.S. History…We are SCRAPPING 13 million cars/year and only selling 9 million/year???

What happens when you DRIVE small used car dealers out of BUSINESS???

THE ANSWER???

YOU DRIVE MILLIONS OF CONSUMERS STRAIGHT INTO NEW CAR DEALERSHIPS that are now CO-OWNED by the U.S. Goverment!!!

BUY FORD STOCK NOW!!!

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel…

It’s like 1992 during the S&L crisis…Banks were taken over by the Goverment…The Goverment became PROPERTY OWNERS…NO ONE wanted to BUY the goverments property because a HOUSING BUST had created the entire S&L mess…So at EXACTLY the time and place when MORON AMERICANS should have been buying property like drunken sailors…

THEY RAN…NOT WALKED…RAN…away from REAL ESTATE. The Goverment poured BILLIONS into PROGRAMS to get FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS into these homes. I was BUYING them (with CASH)…and SELLING each property to new home owners that used GOVERMENT BACKED MORTAGES to buy the newly REHABBED homes. The funny part???
The goverment wouldn’t SELL these homes pre-rehab to handy man types…They HAD to be rehabbed BEFORE they qualified for the program!!! You couldn’t QUALIFY for the program unless the house was finished. It was BEAUTIFUL!!! I would BUY them, do a cosmetic rehab, take pictures, list the home, and BOOM…GOVERMENT GUARANTEED MORTGAGE!!! Sold like HOT CAKES!!!

That was CASH FOR CLUNKERS 1992 style…That BUST made me more money than I ever thought existed…

Ford stock and the CASH FOR CLUNKERS 2009 version will do EXACTLY the same thing this time around.

IF YOU CAN’T BEAT 'EM…

At LEAST make some MONEY off 'em!!!

You guy’s are MISSING the BOAT…What the **** are you arguing about SUBMARINE ASH TRAYS FOR???

Go SELL SOME SUB MARINE ASH TRAYS and quit the freakin whining!!!

I can’t begin to tell you how happy it makes me to have my money buying cars for a bunch of strangers.

Add to my joy, all the economic stimulus for foreign car manufacturers. You can’t even buy an American brand car in my area because EVERY American Manufacturer dealership has been closed by the manufacturers. No Ford, no Chevy, no GMC, unless you want to go to a dealership 200 miles away.

And, oh gosh, what fun… I’m not even buying cars for people who might be able to get a better job, or keep their lids safer, if they have a reliable car, because even with the CFC program, low income people can’t afford car payments, and now they face the possibility of not being able to find a used car. Hey, middle class folks, you’re welcome. Happy to help you buy a car.

Tatertot,

Following liberal philosophy, you only paid $9.77 as your share towards Cash for Clunkers or 2.5 cents per day? So what’s your beef? Don’t you want the middle class to have nice things…

$3 Billion
/ 307 Million population
= $9.77/ea

That is, following liberal philosophy… :rolleyes

It’s not so much as the cost, as the principle idea was to get rid of what they classify as not economical cars.If someone wants a car that gets 2mpg that’s their right to have it.And when does congress and the presidential fleet get replaced with these deathtraps they expect us to “want”??

What PLANET are you living on???

Who’s TAKING gas guzzlers from people who want to keep them???

I’ve got a Dodge Viper with a 10 cylinder engine that gets about 10 MPG…NO ONE has been here to TAKE IT FROM ME???

All the footage I’ve seen from dealerships shows VERY HAPPY people trading in SH*TBOXES for new cars that get, in some cases, 3 TIMES better mileage than the JUNKER they drove in.

DEATH TRAPS???

The small cars out today HANDS DOWN are SAFER by a WIDE MARGIN than BIGGER cars built just 10 years ago. CRASH TEST DATA PROVES this. 5 star crash ratings from INSURANCE COMPANIES confirm this data.

This is the BS that wacko Right wingers LOVE to parade out…“Death Traps they expect us to want”

Maybe you and your PARTY should actually do 10 seconds of RESEARCH before you write your next opinion…

Here’s a clip of those “DEATH TRAPS they expect us to want” in action!!
Here’s a very small 3 year old economy car VS a BIG mid 90’s VOLVO 940 STATION WAGON in a head to head crash test…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emtLLvXrrFs

So much for the DEATH TRAP THEORY :bs :bs :bs :bs :bs

But keep trying…The FACTS don’t matter…Just YELL LOUDER and they’ll believe you!!

FDjake,

Common sense tells me that in crash between an SUV or a minivan and a Prius or an Element, I’d want to be in the SUV or minivan… no matter how safe the crash tests say the prius/element are…

From the www.theGreencarwesbite.com

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2009/04/16/are-smaller-cars-less-safe/

“The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) conducted three 40mph car-to-car front-to-front crash tests which indicated that additional vehicle size and weight actually ENHANCE occupant protection.”

“It suggests that the forces are affected by two physical factors - one is the weight of a crashing vehicle which determines its velocity during impact; and the other is vehicle size and in particular the distance from the front of a vehicle to its occupant compartment.”

“According to IIHS President Adrian Lund, there are good reasons why people buy minicars but there are safety trade-offs. He suggests that if manufacturers downsize their cars to use less fuel, safety is compromised.”

And these tests were using a mid-sized 2009 car’s… just some FACTS to add to the discussion…

The FACTS are…

This is a CASH FOR CLUNKERS conversation!!!

THAT’s what we are DISCUSSING…NOT which NEW CAR is safest.

The point he ATTEMPTED to make was the GOVERMENT was FORCING people out of their old “safe” BIG cars and into small DEATH TRAPS.

Interesting how you tried to divert the topic…

Nice try…

But what do I know???

I’m just cutting people out of these cars on interstate 95 for a living.

BORON STEEL…That’s how new SMALL cars perform better than old BIG cars…
BORON steel takes us 5 times longer to cut through than what was used in cars just 5 years ago. If you had actually WATCHED the video I linked they point this out…

BIGGER…IS no longer BETTER…That IS a FACT.

That Crappy U.S. GOVERMENT you’re always WHINING about MANDATED that Boron steel be used in frontal, and side impact areas of cars built in 2007 and later.

Fords Fusion is actually so strong that Fire Departments across the country are receiving training at local Ford dealerships on exactly WHERE these boron steel tubes are located.

BUT…Hey, why talk FACTS when you can CLAIM another Goverment conspiracy to ROB Amercians of their personal freedoms!!!

FDjake,

I was just responding to your assertion about safety, as you were responding to his assertion of government forcing people out of their old cars…

A picture is worth a thousand words (although I could be accused of still adding those words… :biggrin)…

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/.a/6a00d83451e0d569e201157018f724970b-pi

The above pic was from an April 14, 2009 article from www.ConsumerReports.org

IIHS crash tests show car size matters

"Whenever you select a car to buy, you make tradeoffs. With a pickup, for instance, you typically sacrifice ride comfort and ease of access for the sake of utility. Similarly, when you pick a small car, you naturally expect good fuel economy, maneuverability and a low price, for which you usually forego passenger space, quietness and ride comfort. Intuitively, you know you may also be compromising some crash safety. "

The most interesting quote in the article - “It’s important to understand that the frontal crash tests published by the government and the IIHS simulate a situation where a car crashes head-on into an identical car. (Learn how the government and IIHS conduct crash tests.) That’s a reliable way to gauge many aspects of crashworthiness, but IN REAL LIFE MOST car-to-car collisions involve [color=red]two vehicles of different size and weight.[/color] In terms of probability, it’s less likely that two subcompacts will “meet” head-on, especially here in the U.S. where a majority of the vehicles on the road are midsized family sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks.”

“The small cars out today HANDS DOWN are SAFER by a WIDE MARGIN than BIGGER cars built just 10 years ago. CRASH TEST DATA PROVES this”

All the above just proved what you said is wrong… but, as you said, don’t let the FACTS get in your way…

“I’m sure you know more than ANYONE else here…(as usual)”

Back to our straw men, eh, Fdjake… :rolleyes

For you, of all people, to accuse ANYONE on this site about being a know-it-all, is just on it’s face… laughable…

NO…I believe I accused YOU of being a LIAR.

Your PHOTO is of 2 NEW CARS (2009’s)…See…The discussing was about CASH for CLUNKERS and OLD big cars VS “DEATH TRAP” new small cars…Am I going too fast here???

You (lamely) tried to change the subject (didn’t work)… and …YOU TALK OUT OF YOUR @SS.

I can’t stand you to be completely honest.

Your posts are THE MOST BORING pieces of BULLSH*T I have ever read.
I IMMEDIATELY skip anything with your name attached to it these days due to complete lack of interest and utter boredom.

You go ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON…

ABOUT NOTHING…

PLEASE…Do me a HUGE favor…DO NOT comment on ANYTHING I write here and I’ll do the same for you.

FDjake…

“NO…I believe I accused YOU of being a LIAR.”

LOL… here we go again… as usual, you assert it, as and usual, you will not be able to back up your assertion without FABRICATING it…

Fdjake, between the two of us, YOU are the ONLY ONE who has been PROVEN to be a liar and fabricator… To the moderators, this is response to being called a liar…

"Your posts are THE MOST BORING pieces of BULLSH*T I have ever read.’ & “I IMMEDIATELY skip anything with your name attached to it these days due to complete lack of interest and utter boredom.”

LOL, so let’s get this right, my posts are the "most BORING pieces of BULLSH*T’ you’ve ever READ, but you skip anything with my name on it??? :bs

“You go ON and ON and ON and ON and ON and ON…”

Fdjake, I can ABSOLUTELY be accused of being verbous - I at least recognize it and even from time to time make fun of myself for it… what is laughable, and probably has most of the people reading this giggling to themselves, is that somehow you are not! LOL… more :bs

“I IMMEDIATELY skip anything with your name attached to it these days due to complete lack of interest and utter boredom.”

And that’s why you posted TWICE on this one in DIRECT RESPONSE TO ME… LOL… You should really think BEFORE you post…

“ABOUT NOTHING…”

Your opinion only… but that can also be said about you… at least I don’t insult and purposely demean people in the process…

“Do me a HUGE favor…DO NOT comment on ANYTHING I write here and I’ll do the same for you.”

It’s a free country… you can choose NOT to post on anything I write all you want, I can in turn, do whatever I want…

And here we are, on yet ANOTHER Fdjake straw-man, insult-laden DISTRACTION instead of posting to the posts… :rolleyes

I’m done with you…You’re a BULLSH*TTER…You OUTRIGHT LIED to people here CLAIMING you made MONEY on your 1st FLIP house…When in REALITY you hadn’t even COMPLETED it… never mind SOLD it. That’s a FACT…You can SPIN it anyway you want but when you’re telling people. “Yea, I did well on it, made money.” But the REALITY is…You haven’t even COMPLETED a simple rehab on an TINY 800 sq ft house with NO basement in OVER a YEAR???..Well, anyone that REALLY rehabs homes knows what that means…How do you tell people you made MONEY on something you have YEt to sell or even FINISH…Better yet…W H Y…would you tell people you made money on it???

I have no respect for people who lie.

I’m done with you. It’s not even worth my time…Arguing with a person that CLEARLY misleads people about something as simple as his first house flip tells me all I need to know about you.

Fdjake…

“I’m done with you…You’re a BULLSH*TTER…You OUTRIGHT LIED to people here CLAIMING you made MONEY on a FLIP you hadn’t even COMPLETED.”

This assertion by has ALREADY been PROVED to be untrue… and has been shown multiple times, and everyone’s already read it AND posted on it… so nice try…

Good to know you are “done with me”… one less person to be on the receiving end of your abuse… that is, until you ultimately post again addressing me or find another to demean… your charatcer requires it… something to do a little soul-searching on FDJake…

“I have no respect for people who lie.”

Then your lack of respect for yourself and your need to project it on others and build yourself up through the CONSTANT reminding everybody how much money you have, how “smart” you are, etc… makes ALL THE MORE SENSE!

“Arguing with a person that CLEARLY misleads people about something as simple as his first house flip.”

It it was so “clear” why couldn’t you prove it, FDjake… BECAUSE IT DIDN"T HAPPEN… I NEVER told ANYONE here that I had 1) completed my flip, and 2) had a check in hand… what I commented on, was that I made money on the flip going in, which is a principal promoted by others at this site and others, which is where I GOT THE CONCEPT in the first place… nice try… And I’m trying to “mislead” people…

"YOU established the PATTERN buddy…I simply pointed it out for everyone to see. "

Yes, you’ve tried and failed on this multiple times, BECAUSE you cannot do it WITHOUT fabricating it… I’m not the one with the patten of not telling the truth here, FDJake… you DO realize people see this, right, FDjake?.. the more you go on about it, the more desparate it looks…

Now, we can get back to the discussion at hand, or you can continue putting up your straw men, which have been PROVEN to be false… These side tangents you go on are absolutely boring… But don’t expect me not to respond to defend your false assertions…

Or, you can continue being “done with me” by continuing to post more IN RESPONSE the to the posts you apparently don’t read… :rolleyes

“You OUTRIGHT LIED to people here CLAIMING you made MONEY on a FLIP…When in REALITY you hadn’t even COMPLETED it… never mind SOLD it. That’s a FACT…”

To make it clear to everyone who may NOT be familiar with this… Go ahead, FDjake, site the thread and post where I “outright lied” to people… MY POST, not yours… The reason I ask for the thread and post # is you don’t have a good track record on copying quotes from other people’s posts without adding YOUR words to them…

So since you have directly accused me of “outright” lying… PROVE IT!

I changed my mind…

Breakin your b@lls is WAY more fun…

Hey, Hows that 1 year PLUS 800 sq ft flip going anyway???

They could make a TV show on it…

The NEVER ENDING project I made money on!!