advise newb if this is a good deal?

hello.

Ive found a listing. its a four-plex. 100% occupied. 2 units pay $450, other 2 pay $425. for a total of $1750. 1 tenant has been there 4 years, another 11. Asking price is $129,000. and its in a reasonably nice area. probably lower middle class. nothing really run down too bad.

the only negatives ive found so far is it was originally a duplex, and additional power meters have never been added, so the current owner just pays the electric. And it will probably need a new roof within 5 years(just a guess)

sound as good as i think it does?? what would your first offer be?

thanks

Have you seen inside each unit yet? Is it all chopped up funny b/c it used to be a duplex? I’d check everything out and see if there’s a lot of deferred maintenance or not. It’s really hard to fix much up with tenants already in there. It sucks b/c you can’t go work on it when you want to. Paying all the electric is a huge hang-up for me. I wouldn’t do it. If you seriously want to do this, I would talk to several electricians to see how much it would cost to split it all up. If there’s electric heat there, your bills could vary wildly and really eat into your money. Right now it’s a great deal for the tenants. If you split it out, they’re going to be upset they have to start paying for it. You may have to consider lowering the rent to keep them at that point.
With the income listed, I’d want to buy this for under 100k…probably a good bit below 100k. You need to see what the owner has been paying for electric for several months. I’d try to get a year worth of bills so you can see what you’re in for.

The cash flow looks really good (assuming those rental amounts were per month), I’ve calculated approximately 16% yield.

Have you considered the growth prospects for the area? Are there plenty of jobs and infrastructure nearby?

Darren.

Hi,

I am not sure I want to live the Lifestylez of some of my fellow investors!

$129,000 Value of Subject 4 Plex
$ 1,750 Gross Rents
$ 1,575 Adjusted Gross Income - 10% Vacancy Factor
$ 586 Monthly Payment on 30 Year 1st TD @ 5.5% = $103,200 80%
$ 189 Monthly Payment on 30 year Down payment @ 8% = $25,800 Investor Cash on Cash Returns!
$ 157 Property Management Fee
$ 60 Estimated Landlord Tenant Policy
$ 75 Property Taxes
$ 60 Lawn Care in Summer / Snow Removal in Winter
$ 100 Total Maintence Expense $25 Per Unit
$ 100 Short Term Replacement Reserve
$ 100 Long Term Roofing / Major Replacement Reserve
$ 50 Legal, Advertising, Office Supplies
$ Common Electrical Bill
$ Trash Removal
$ Water and Sewer
$ Misc Expense

Yea, I prefer keeping my life style as I don’t like the idea of being broke!

Plus Justin brings up a good point about being cut up and the cost and expense of the electrical or redoing the electrical!

Now what’s the yield!

                        GR

I try to keep the analysis simple…

Figure 50% expenses including vacancy.

That means you’ve got $10,500 for your NOI, based on the numbers you provided.

That also means a cap rate of about 7.8% return if you paid all cash.

Assumptions:

$128,000 Price
$32,000 Down Payment
$96,000 Financed
Terms: 30/yr @ 5.5%
Annual PI Payment: $6,540

Annual Profit/Loss
$21,000 GSI
<$10,500> Less Expenses (including vacancy)
=$10,500 Equals NOI
<$6,540> Less Debt Service
$3,960 Equals Cash Flow
12.3% Leveraged Cash-On-Cash Return (Before Taxes)

This is not a smoking deal, but it beats a stick in the eye. The hidden profit might be found if the rents are too low for the area/market and a significant increase can be made.

My bet is that the rents are way TOO low.

Hi,

You know if I take and divide gross income as in following the 50 / 50 rule it still doesn't look like my friend Javipa above?

$21,000 Gross Income

           Expenses

$10,500 Half 50% of gross income
$ 2,100 Vacancy Factor
$ 2,100 Property Management Fee
$ 3,600 Electric Bill - 4 units - $75 per unit - $300 month
$ 900 Taxes
$ 720 Insurance
$ 720 Lawn Care / Snow Removal
$ 360 Legal & Advertising


$10,500 That’s it, all that money is gone!

$ Water and Sewer??? - $80 a month - $20 per unit - $960 per year
$ Trash??? - $40 a month - $10 per unit - $480 per year
$ Misc Expenses??? - $20 a month - $5 per unit - $240 per year
$ Maintence??? - $60 a month - $15 per unit - $720 per year
$ Replacement / Repairs??? - $80 a month - $20 per unit - $960 per year
$ Owner Expenses to Oversee Property??? - $10 a month - $120 per year


$3480 I estimate those additional cost’s to take most of the $3960 cash flow!

           Debt Service

$10,500 Gross Debt income
$ 6,540 I am just fine with 25% down
$ 3,960 Cash flow doesn’t work for me because there are 6 unpaid bill sections with no money to pay them.

I know from experience that expenses are more than 50% when the number of units is too small to be of any relevance of size!

$3960 Sub total
<$3480> Estimated additional Expense


$480 Adjusted Cash Flow 1.5% Leveraged Cash on Cash Returns

This does not include anything for long term reserves replacement of roof, painting, carpet, flooring, landscaping, etc.
The short term reserve is not sufficient to cover anything other than a appliance package every 10 years!

Normally my friend Javipa is about right on, however I think he missed the fact that Landlord is paying all electrical for all units!

My estimate for re-wiring to seperately meter each unit runs $12k to $15k depending on how much trenching! This does not include permit fee’s or weatherhead cabling cost’s to increase load!

                   GR

Gold River,

That’s a conservative analysis for sure. You might be exactly correct for all I know about the area rents and vacancy factors.

If the area vacancy factor was actually 10%, and the rents were already at retail, then maybe this would be the deal to pass on, as you’ve implied. Wisely, you included 10% management, too. However, most small operations can’t afford management whatsoever. I didn’t include management in my numbers for that reason. Otherwise, with your 10% vacancy and 10% management costs, we might actually be talking about a 65% expense situation, not 50% including a 5% vacancy. And then tack on the extra utilities…and wow, it might be 70%.

Do you now if the vacancy for the area is actually 10% and if the rents are where they need to be?

The management fees you list are reasonable. Frankly, on this size property again, few owners can actually justify/afford management costs, because it does eat up 10% of the gross income. We could find cheaper management fees for sure, but we’d end up paying ‘cost plus 10%’ on any repairs with most any budget management company we contracted with.

So, we just assume, as a practical matter, that until we get enough properties scraped together in one area, that we’re not going to be able to amortize the cost of management well enough to consider using professional management. We’ll just ‘home depot’ the management until we can get more income, or more properties.

Meantime, another valuation method is to determine the area rent/price ratio. In my area, “if” the monthly rent is anywhere near 1% of the sale price, including repairs, etc., this would represent a good, conventional deal. That said, any rents that represented more than 1% of the sale price would be a steal.

In the example we’re discussing, the current monthly rent is 1.36% of the sale price. Maybe we shouldn’t buy until the rents are at 2% of the purchase price?

Maybe the “potential” rents would equal 2% of the price? That’s fine and dandy, except at a price of $128k we have given away all our future profits at the get go, regardless if we raise the rents or not. This is no good.

Meantime, I know some investors on this forum who wouldn’t buy unless the rents reflected at least 2% the purchase price.

As you’ve pointed out, the landlord-paid utilities really mess up the numbers. I agree completely that this could cause the expenses to climb well past 50%.

Great post!

Hey everyone! sorry, ive been busy.

i actually have an expense report for 2010, and some more details. Turns out the roof was replaced in 2005. and some of the ac units were replaced a few years ago.

the rent totaled$19260 last year. it looks like they charged a couple units different amounts a few times, maybe lack of fun3ds, maybe planned… im in the process of finding out now.

utilities(water/electric/sewer/garbage pick up) and property taxes totaled $8,812.

so, as it sits now, it would not work at all. if the tenants paid utilities, or the rent was raised considerably it would work. but as of now… nope.

Don’t walk away yet…

Re-analyze the numbers and make an offer based on what you know to be true…

Now we know what the vacancy and credit loss figure is now…

$21,000 GSI

  • $ 1,740 Less Actual Vacancy/Credit Loss (8.28% of GSI)
    $19,260 Equals Effective Gross Income

  • $ 8,812 Less Stated Expenses (42% of GSI)
    $10,448 Equals Net Operating Income

  • $ 6,540 Less Debt Service (at $128k with $32k down. 30/yr, 5.5%)
    $ 3,908 Equals Seller’s Stated Cash Flow Before Debt Service

  • $ 1,680 Less *Expected Maintenance/Reserves (8%)

    $ 2,228 Equals Your Realistic Pre-tax Cash Flow

The GRM (gross rent multiplier) is 6.69. How does that compare with other income property this size in your neighborhood?

And the CAP rate is 8.1%. Can you buy other property with higher CAP rates?

Average collected rent is $401/door. $20k a door seems like a safe price to me. That’s about $80k or a 2% rent/price ratio per door.

You asked what price you should start with…

Try $80k cash and see if the seller is smart enough to take it a r.u.n.

FWIW

*Assuming you bought this place without needing any repairs.

Vacancy: 8.6%
Expenses: 42%
Your expenses: 8%
Total Expenses w/o management is 58.6%

Paying all the electric is a huge hang-up for me. I wouldn’t do it. If you seriously want to do this, I would talk to several electricians to see how much it would cost to split it all up. If there’s electric heat there, your bills could vary wildly and really eat into your money. Right now it’s a great deal for the tenants. If you split it out, they’re going to be upset they have to start paying for it. You may have to consider lowering the rent to keep them at that point

Wow! What a wise suggestion. You really know what you’re talking about (either that or the “quote” function screwed up on you when you posted)…

I agreed. I don’t think it is a good deal. 4 tenants for little to no cashflow (if there is a repair that month) Paying for utilities is huge draw back. I had one fourplex with a master meter for water. Even, I collected a set amount from tenants, it never covered their actual usage.

Val

Hey GoldRiver, obviously I was quoting gross yield, not net. Of course you knew that and were just having a laugh, fair enough.