Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....

[PamJM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

[furnishedowner]

Great. Ronald Reagan.  A great actor, but not a great president or humanitarian.

I was living in California when Reagan became Governor.  He shut down the state mental hospitals.  The idea was that schizophrenics, and psychotics could get their medicine from community clinics.

Of course he didn't ask any medical advice about the plan.  On how good that segment of the mentally ill was on being treatment-compliant.

Only an institution with mandatory medication dispensing could keep those poor people's demons at bay.

I remember the first time I saw a severely mentally-ill man pushing a grocery cart in MY California neighborhood--he was mumbling out loud, answering those voices in his head.  He was half-naked with his pants falling off as he shuffled along.  There was no local mental health clinic within miles.

"My God," I asked my friend, "What has happened?  Why is that really sick man on the street?"

"Oh, you haven't heard?  Reagan shut off financing to the state mental hospitals.  It's a cost-saving measure.  Now that there are psychotropic drugs out there, those people are supposed to get their medicine in local clinics.  The hospitals had no choice--they just had to open their wards and all those institutionalized people walked out."

Don't talk to me about Reagan.  I saw his inhumane policies firsthand.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

And I am sure you took the time out of your day to take this poor individual to a clinic so he could get the med he needed, right?  or did you just comiserate with your friend on what someone esle did while doing nothing?...   

You criticize Reagan for a policy choice and when the person is right in front of you, you did what?  My guess is nothing...  you made your choice, which would be considered worse than a policy choice...

Which choice is more inhumane?... 

[Hoosier4life2005]

Furnished.... why should my tax dollars go to helping somebody else with an issue their having?  Its not anybody elses problem, and everybody shouldnt be expected to pay for it.

Why is it moral, to take money from HARD WORKERS, and spend it on programs for OTHER people(regardless of how bad they need it)?  Isnt that theft?

Great. Ronald Reagan.  A great actor, but not a great president or humanitarian.

I was living in California when Reagan became Governor.  He shut down the state mental hospitals.  The idea was that schizophrenics, and psychotics could get their medicine from community clinics.

Of course he didn't ask any medical advice about the plan.  On how good that segment of the mentally ill was on being treatment-compliant.

Only an institution with mandatory medication dispensing could keep those poor people's demons at bay.

I remember the first time I saw a severely mentally-ill man pushing a grocery cart in MY California neighborhood--he was mumbling out loud, answering those voices in his head.  He was half-naked with his pants falling off as he shuffled along.  There was no local mental health clinic within miles.

"My God," I asked my friend, "What has happened?  Why is that really sick man on the street?"

"Oh, you haven't heard?  Reagan shut off financing to the state mental hospitals.  It's a cost-saving measure.  Now that there are psychotropic drugs out there, those people are supposed to get their medicine in local clinics.  The hospitals had no choice--they just had to open their wards and all those institutionalized people walked out."

Don't talk to me about Reagan.  I saw his inhumane policies firsthand.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Hoosier,

I wouldn't expect an answer anytime soon...  While Furnishedowner seems to have a sense of compassion, that is, with other people's money, she seems to avoid the tough questions... 

[furnishedowner]

PosOutlook,
Your response is so far out there that it's difficult to answer.

There is NO WAY a citizen on the street can pick up a homeless psychotic person IN THEIR CAR, FOR HEAVEN"S SAKE, and take them to a clinic!  This is something that even the police and paramedics find challenging, and dangerous.

You haven't been around many crazies lately to even suggest such a thing.  I remember that my friend and I did call the police and reported the poor man as he was more than half-naked, and obviously not capable of caring for himself.

Hoosier,

It is IMMORAL to not help the most poor and needy amongst us.  It is even in the ancient Christian scripture--"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you" and "As you so help the least of my brethen, so you help me".  Paraphrased.

Also the Koran, and other religions also teach about giving to the destitute and poor.

We do this because we are human, and we recognize the humanity in others.

Remember Hoosier, anyone of us is just one head injury away from joining the group that needs to be supported by the healthy.

Furnishedowner

[Hoosier4life2005]

Yes, its called CHARITY, read the bible, he talks about it many times. God also talks about the important of work. If you wanna bring religion into it...

Does God say "Thou shall not steal, unless by majority vote."? 

If all the poor people vote to take money from the rich, for whatever reason(even if its a good one), they still dont have the right too.

 Its like, two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. 

Or... Does he say "Thou shall not steal."   Yes.. thats what he says.  You want to STEAL from me, to give to others, instead of letting me give CHARITY.  Am I correct?

If im not correct, and you stick to your statements, then you dont support "Thou shall not steal." And instead support "Thou shall not steal, unless by majority vote."

I hate to get religious, but damn..

PosOutlook,
Your response is so far out there that it's difficult to answer.

There is NO WAY a citizen on the street can pick up a homeless psychotic person IN THEIR CAR, FOR HEAVEN"S SAKE, and take them to a clinic!  This is something that even the police and paramedics find challenging, and dangerous.

You haven't been around many crazies lately to even suggest such a thing.  I remember that my friend and I did call the police and reported the poor man as he was more than half-naked, and obviously not capable of caring for himself.

Hoosier,

It is IMMORAL to not help the most poor and needy amongst us.  It is even in the ancient Christian scripture--"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you" and "As you so help the least of my brethen, so you help me".  Paraphrased.

Also the Koran, and other religions also teach about giving to the destitute and poor.

We do this because we are human, and we recognize the humanity in others.

Remember Hoosier, anyone of us is just one head injury away from joining the group that needs to be supported by the healthy.

Furnishedowner

[sellnbama]

Seems 2 me the kid(aka hoosier)is right on the money on this one..Pardon the pun.

[PositiveOutlook]

Wow, and actual response from you, Furnishedowner...

So, you called the police...  no offer of food, no offer of clothing, no churches around, no offer to help other than call the police... you determined all by yourself that he was "severely mentally ill"...

While I don't want to start a "I do more than you contest" -  based on what you post, I am confident I have had more experience with the homeless than you've had, and one thing I can tell you is when you deal with the homeless you understand is you are dealing with people who have diminished capacity... whether they are speaking to themselves or not...  that does not mean, in most cases, that they lack the ability to communicate or accept help, they RELY ON IT... but you'll never know whether this person could have or not, because you didn't even try...

Did you wait to see if the police showed and handled it?  BTW, another example of you wanting government to handle it, IOW, other peoples money and effort...   

"Oh, you haven't heard?  Reagan shut off financing to the state mental hospitals."

With regards to Reagan, read up on the history of the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act and the ACLU...


"There was no local mental health clinic within miles."

Interesting how you modified your post and added this line AFTER my post... according to you, it wouldn't have mattered, so why the need to add it other than to try and save face?...   

If you called the police, they don't have the capacity to drive "miles"... then why did you call them?

[PositiveOutlook]

"other religions also teach about giving to the destitute and poor"

Yes, GIVING to the poor, not having it FORCEFULLY taken from you in taxes only to have a SMALL PERCENTAGE actually make it to the intended party because of bureaocrisy...




2 Thessalonians 3:10-15 - "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

 11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right.

 14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

[PositiveOutlook]

At least we settled the issue as to whether or not you are indeed a female, Furnishedowner... thanks for the clarification...   



Hoosier.... well said...   

[PamJM]

I know it intellectually, but I can't wrap myself around it emotionally or spiritually or any other way.

I see this so often.  Someone with a lib mentality wants the govt. to take care of everyone and we're MEAN if we don't agree with that.  But we're the ones who tithe at church, and find orphanages to help with and want, as our greatest desire in life, to make enough money to feed lots and lots of poor people.  But we're the "mean conservatives".  My "mean conservative" sister goes down to the streeets, where the homeless are in her city, every Sunday and feeds and gives them drinks.  She and my brother-in-law took a homeless man in while he was learning a new profession and getting settled with a new apartment and two jobs.  This is a stranger, but she got to know him and his life and his needs.  But she doesn't believe in welfare, or socialized medicine, why?  Because it's our job to help others and we DO IT BETTER!!

Voted #1 in Akron Ohio as the best-run charity?  Haven of Rest....it's a shelter for the homeless, it's a residential facility for men and women, helps them get trained for jobs etc.  And guess what?  It doesn't take one dollar from the government or United Way, it's all funded by individuals and churches.....go figure.

[PositiveOutlook]

PamJM,

You make an EXCELLENT point... I don't know if you've followed the back and forth that Furnishedowner and I have, but in EVERY CASE in our discussions, where there was a need, whether it was healthcare, jobs, and now the homeless, her answer is to point the finger towards government for solutions...

What I find troubling about this, and why I hammer the government as the solution to societal ills, is that the more liberals in government and the private sector entice people onto the roles of assistance, the LESS they rely on themselves, and become USED to, as a matter of course, on relying on government for more and more (hence, why we are now looking to government for healthcare)... this leads to a LESS-fulfilling life of waiting on the government to even live, while at the same time ROBBING their fellow citizens in the form of taxes, which just leads to BIGGER government to administer the programs, which EAT the money up to the point where 70-80% of the money taken in for the cause is needed just to pay for the program du jour...

If the government does better for the individual than the individual can do for themselves, then we should all just give 100% of our money to the government (liberal nervana) and let the government tell us how to live, eat and exist...  if not... WHY NOT???

What people fail to realize is that the MORE government takes from people, the LESS they have to give to others and successful charities like Haven of Rest...

There is a MAJOR difference between people having money FORCEFULLY taken from them and distributed by someone else, as opposed to GIVING your time and money to what YOU deem important (i.e. - FREEDOM!)...

[furnishedowner]

Reply posts like the above are why I hardly bother with Random Ramblings anymore.

PosOutlook, when did you last pick up a psychotic from the street and deliver them to medical care?  I hope you had those 4-point leather restraints with you just in case. What a crazy criticism.

Hoosier, you need to get a dose of humility and charity if you go into the medical field. An ethics class would be of benefit too.  You are going to see a lot of poor needy people who need to be treated the same medically whether they have the money or not.

Personally I am really tired of the constant generalizing:  "Liberals are bad and wrong."  "Conservatives have a direct line to the truth".  This just shuts down any dialogue.

There is no way conservatives are 100% right. No way liberals are 100% right.  This is why there are debates, and  voting, and why the middle way may be what's selected. It's also why Obama was elected. It's also why there will hopefully finally be medical coverage of some kind for all.  It's what the people want.  No, not what you conservatives on this site want.

I am tired of the demonizing.  If I, your one liberal, perhaps, say "Today the sky here is blue."  Someone will be sure to say "It is only your liberal mindset that requires the government to pay to make the sky blue."  The discussion just degenerates into nonsense.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

Reality is you don't post to Random Ramblings much anymore BECAUSE people call you on what you say...

As an example, YOU offer a debate with your "deep throat" expert on global warming (oops - "climate change"... ), and when we say yes... Silence...


"when did you last pick up a psychotic from the street and deliver them to medical care?  I hope you had those 4-point leather restraints with you just in case. What a crazy criticism"

First off, aside from the fact that 30 years ago you had the qualifications to diagnose him as phsychotic, is inadequate...  The first point I was MAKING was that you criticized Reagan for the policy without really even knowing what happened and the history of it, which is WHY I recommended you read up on the act itself and the ACLU...  If you can't do this, you have NO BASIS to critcize it without knowing the details...  The second point, was ALL you were willing to do was to call the police (i.e. - government solution), and not do anything else...  no offer of food, no clothing, no church, etc...  You didn't even ASK the guy if he needed help... YOUR SOLUTION was to call the police....  This has been the case with ALL your "friends" you list... the GOVERNMENT is the solution...  no action on your part, despite suggested ways you COULD'VE helped...

I've never had to take a homeless person for medical attention, the situation has never presented itself, but if it did, I would ASK them if they needed help and if so I would ACT...  You didn't even ASK him... I HAVE done all the other things I listed above... last time was two days ago...  I am not telling this you to build up myself in any way, just to answer your question...  BTW, taking to themselves or is fairly common with homeless people...  as it is for shut-ins and other lonely people....


"I am tired of the demonizing.  If I, your one liberal, perhaps, say "Today the sky here is blue."  Someone will be sure to say "It is only your liberal mindset that requires the government to pay to make the sky blue."  The discussion just degenerates into nonsense"

I can't believe you are trying to make an argument that discussions degenerate into nonsense with the above example...

If you read into what you are saying is... What you REALLY mean is that when we disagree with your POV, which usually has very little support on your position, that you consider it nonsense...


"It's also why there will hopefully finally be medical coverage of some kind for all.  It's what the people want.  No, not what you conservatives on this site want."

No, here you are wrong... the people DO NOT want this... They are coming out in SWARMS to say they not only do they NOT want nationalized healthcare, they also want the politicians to STOP THE SPENDING... and 70-80% of the people want the "stimulus" money to be RETURNED TO THE PEOPLE...

54% Say Passing No Healthcare Reform Better Than Passing Congressional Plan

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/54_say_passing_no_healthcare_reform_better_than_passing_congressional_plan

People want healtcare REFORM - Intra-state trading INCREASING competition, removal of "pre-existing" clauses, Medical savings account, tax-deductibility of their health insurance, etc... 

NOT

Yet ANOTHER federal bureaocrisy to manage THEIR lives... if the government is in CONTROL of it, there is NO way to REMOVE it once it is proven YET AGAIN that it doesn't work...