Cash for Clunkers

Is it just me or would it make too much sense for a requirement of this program to be that you have to buy a car from an American automobile manufacturer if you are going to be using this program?

The argument for this is that the foreign manufacturers cars are made here in the US plants…

Weird though, I just read an article where, after passing ANOTHER $2 BILLION, the interest is dipping…

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE57B09220090812?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

Cash for clunkers doesn’t make since to me. You go into a dealership and decide you want to buy a car with a sticker of $30,000. You trade a clunker and get $4,000 from the government, what does the dealership give? This looks like car dealerships have slow business, so instead of them giving you $4000 off the sticker of a car, the government gives you $4000 off. I want the $4000 from the government all the manufacturer’s incentives and $4000 form the dealership. I think the deal is sitting there like the cat that ate the bird.

Group of Dealers Launch Private Auto Stimulus Program…

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/06/group-dealers-launch-private-auto-stimulus-program/

You guys know we crush these cars after they’re turned in? IMO this program is a horrible idea.

#1. Instead of people buying things that maybe they needed (like a refrigerator), they are buying a car because the deal is so good.

#2. All people were going to need cars eventually, so they are just killing off future sales. People would have just boughten all these cars in a few years, as opposed to now.

#3. Crushing these old “clunker” cars after being turned in. These are perfectly good assets that were just destroying. My friends dad had a PERFECT OKAY car to drive, but they crushed it. Were destroying good assets, thats never a good idea…

#4, More government spending, never a good idea, especially in the economy.

I have read about people that realized after it was too late that they had made a big mistake. If I had a running vehicle with no car payment I don’t care how much the Govt. was giving me I would drive that sucker into the ground. While it may be stimulating the economy a bit it is also putting people deeper into debt.

People think it is a great deal. What they don’t realize is that the dealer probably would have given them a decent chunk of change for the car anyway because they need to move product. Now instead of the dealer biting the bullet it is the US taxpayers that are biting the bullet. I am sure dealers are loving this.

On the flipside, from what I’ve read, the USED car market is costing people MORE (10-15%) money now because they are destroying these cars…

With alot of low-income families credit being trashed lately, do you think they are buying new or used?

Seems like we all agree that this program has alot of downfalls to say the least. Why cant the gov just stay out of stuff like this? Unbelievable.

There are plenty of SUB-PRIME car lenders out there. Check out Drive Financial. 18-25% interest rates.

That’s kinda my point… they now will get hit with a higher cost for the sub-prime loan along WITH an increased cost BECAUSE of the used inventory shortage due to destroying these trade-ins…

I’ve heard alot more negative from dealers than positive.One ford dealer is into it for $150k and is having a hard time getting rembursed by govt(imagine that).I also foundout if the customer has any judgements or due taxes,the dealer has to settle that before they pay also.Just like obama said yesterday -UPS and Fedex are doin fine,it’s the US post office that’s goin down.Said while trying to convence you to go govt!!??(teleprompter desparetly needed)

Just like always,whatever they touch they screw up.Just imagine when you’re hurting dealing with these einsteins for your healthcare.Back to the topic,cash for clunk is to force cars the govt does’nt want you to have off the road.

Christopher,
Could’nt agree with you more on the car note.Me & my wife don’t have any and never will.Paid for is the only way for me.

Just like the military, or the interstate highway system, or air traffic control, or the internal revenue service, or …

Bluemoon06,

“Just like the military, or the interstate highway system, or air traffic control, or the internal revenue service, or …”

From a service standpoint, the military is a great system… the Bureaucracy makes it inefficient as an organization and leads to cost overruns…

If you are going to hold out the interstate highway system as an example of something they don’t screw up, I can’t help you there… But to put it into perspective for you…

“Although construction on the Interstate Highway System continues, I-70 through Glenwood Canyon (completed in 1992) is often cited as the completion of the originally planned system.[12][13] The initial cost estimate for the system was $25 billion over 12 years; it ended up costing $114 billion (adjusted for inflation, $425 billion in 2006 dollars[14]) and taking 35 years to complete.[15] Additional spurs and loops/bypasses remain under construction, such as Interstate 485 in North Carolina.” - Wikipedia

Get that, the initial cost was $25 BILLION over 12 years, and ending up costing almost FIVE TIMES at $114 BILLION and took THREE times as long at 35 years!

EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of screwing up whatever they touch… and people think that healthcare has ANY CHANCE of costs coming down… they are talking about it being “revenue neutral” now, so you KNOW it will either cost MUCH MORE or services reduced… :banghead

Air traffic control? Don’t know enough about it…

I honestly can’t believe you cited the Internal Revenue Service… :biglaugh LOL… :bs

At our staff meeting (military) yesterday, one guy asked the finance lady if we had any money left for the fiscal year. She said yes. He asked if we don’t spend that, does it go back to “entity X.” She said yes, so we’ll spend it so it doesn’t get taken away. This is just one of many problems with our military finances. Each command is allocated a certain amount each year. If they spend that amount, they’ll likely get the same amount next year. If spending dips, they’ll likely have a cutback next year. Items purchased on govt contract cost many times more than what you could buy on your own, but you’re not allowed to purchase things from just anywhere. It’s common knowledge that govt contracts are big bucks for people. If the govt is involved, you can expect the price tag to be much higher than normal.

ATC is undergoing some changes. There’s a big push to force people to navigate using GPS rather than current navaids (TACAN, VOR, VORTAC). So a few years from now, pilots will likely be flying direct to destinations rather than flying on airways (which are nothing more than highways in the sky) which will save tons of gas overall. Some people already fly direct, but no Navy plane I’ve flown so far is legally allowed to navigate by GPS. GPS is a tool for us, but not legal for instrument navigation.

You have to admit that all these government systems are very good at what they do. Your argument seems to be that they are not cost efficient. That is not what they were designed to do. You can run a military cheaper, but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to kill people and break things. They do that the best in the world. You can build a highway system cheaper (Mexico) but the US interstate system gets you to anywhere in the USA without a map, falling off a cliff or a flat tire. The internal revenue system gets you to pay them 1/3 of all the money you make every year.

Let me add the post office to that. The post office is one of the best run organizations in the world. It delivers mail to every address in the USA 6 days a week. It looses over 5,000 letters a day, but it handles ½ billion items per day. That means that it loses less than 0.001% of the mail that it touches.

The government was never intended to be frugal, that is what insurance companies do. That is why they are marvels at denying claims and they are masters at collecting premiums and are super creative at finding ways to not pay a claim. Their function is not covering you for catastrophic loss their function is to produce a profit. The government’s purpose is to provide service not produce a profit. That is why if you need to get on welfare, they will get you on welfare with the procession and speed of a gazelle.

I agree that the government is very difficult to deal with unless you are a perfect match but it always does with it was designed to do very well.

This is why we should follow the Constitution. Gov will never be frugal, so we must limit them to the essentials (military). One could even argue (like me) that programs like the Department of Education/Agriculture should be canceled.

Bluemooon06,

“You have to admit that all these government systems are very good at what they do. Your argument seems to be that they are not cost efficient. That is not what they were designed to do.”

ANYTIME a new government program is proposed, one of the MAIN REASONS for it’s existence in the first place is COST… We are talking government programs, NOT services (i.e. - military, ATC, etc.)…

“You can run a military cheaper, but that is not its purpose.”

Well, if that is the case, and it obviously is not, let’s INCREASE their funding and REDUCE other government programs… After all, the military IS a role of the goverment…

“Its purpose is to kill people and break things.”

An exact quote from Rush Limbaugh… who knew you were a listener… :shocked

“You can build a highway system cheaper (Mexico) but the US interstate system gets you to anywhere in the USA without a map, falling off a cliff or a flat tire.”

Guess we don’t need Mapquest, Maps or GPS anymore… apparently, we don’t need them anymore… :rolleyes You must not have driven in the north… potholes are common and a very common reason for flats…

That said, you are missing the point entirely… whenever a new government program is proposed, the costs are 99% of the time wrong, so the point is that the healthcare “revenue neutrality” argument is FALSE on its face and being USED to fool the people… The interstate highway was originally proposed for military purposes for the transportation of munitions, etc. to PROTECT the country in the event of an attack… you don’t think it’s coincidence that we haven’t been attacked militarily on the continental US, do you?

“The internal revenue system gets you to pay them 1/3 of all the money you make every year.”

Yes, and it costs them BILLIONS to do it… and they could NEVER do it unless it was AUTOMATICALLY TAKEN from your check… Never mind the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS they FAIL to collect every year making other MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE through taxes or borrowing… but I guess this abject FAILURE is success to you? :banghead

“Let me add the post office to that. The post office is one of the best run organizations in the world. It delivers mail to every address in the USA 6 days a week. It looses over 5,000 letters a day, but it handles ½ billion items per day. That means that it loses less than 0.001% of the mail that it touches.”

And yet, by Obama’s OWN ADMISSION, FEDEX AND UPS DO IT BETTER and AT A PROFIT… all in argument of letting the government do the same for healthcare… :rolleyes

You have NEVER seen the cost of postage go DOWN with the government run postal service, but both FEDEX AND UPS have DECREASED their prices during their existence.

“The government was never intended to be frugal”

You need to brush up on your history, Bluemoon06…

“A wise and FRUGAL government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity.” - Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address.

“that is what insurance companies do. That is why they are marvels at denying claims and they are masters at collecting premiums and are super creative at finding ways to not pay a claim.”

And you are saying the government doesn’t do the same with government insurance??? You obviously have not had any experience in dealing with elder care…

“Their function is not covering you for catastrophic loss their function is to produce a profit. The government’s purpose is to provide service not produce a profit.”

Tell that to the supporters of TARP… one of their reasons for TARP was that we would eventually MAKE MONEY (i.e. - profit)…

“That is why if you need to get on welfare, they will get you on welfare with the procession and speed of a gazelle.”

That is becuase they have a VESTED INTEREST (i.e. - their jobs) to get you ON the role, but when it come to following through on the services, it’s quite another story…

“I agree that the government is very difficult to deal with unless you are a perfect match but it always does with it was designed to do very well.”

Again, read your history Bluemoon06, this is NOT what our government was designed to do… but UNTIL you do educate yourself on this, you will ALWAYS be willing to let the government do FOR you (or enslave others under the guise of compassion) as opposed to doing for YOURSELF…

FREEdom is NOT free… Imagine how all those who fought and gave their lives to stop Communism, Fascism, Socialism and Naziism would feel to know that they sacrificed SO MUCH only to watch the country they were trying to protect slide right into the same… :banghead :banghead :banghead

I listen to everybody. Life is not a zero sum game. I am right and you are wrong. Most people are not all right or all wrong. You will never know which parts are right if you don’t listen to them.

I travel all over the country a lot. I have for years. The signs work to get you from town to town really well (except in Pennsylvania).

We are real estate investors. We understand how to pay little or no taxes. That is because of the laws on the books. That is outside of the IRS’s mandate. They are the best collection organization on the planet. America was founded on the premise that taxes are evil. But they assure that every man woman and child knows what April 15th is. They get everybody in the USA to pay up. That is no small feat.

Fed-Ex has a daily volume of 1.5 million parcels versus the USPS of 250million. That is like saying that the high school state champion football team from your state can compete with any of the teams in the NFL. They are just in a different league. If we disbanded the USPS and gave the franchise to Fed-Ex I don’t know if it would be any better. What would happen is Fed-Ex would cut out a lot of the less profitable services currently handled by the post office. For example they would probably not deliver to some addresses in rural West Virginia, or cut them back to weekly service

That is not what the government was intended to do. That was one man’s opinion. Actually Hoosier is probably more right that any of us when he said that government was not intended to provide most services that it does now. But if it does provide the service it can’t, nor should it, be detracted from performing the task because of cost. If I am lying injured in the street and a government ambulance decides that it would not come to my rescue because it costs too much. I would have a problem with that.

I assume you mean Medicare. Medicare is all of our insurance. When you retire you will have a nice insurance with your pension but as soon as you hit 65 your company sponsored policy will cancel and you will be on Medicare. Medicare does not prevent anybody from going to specialists, it does not have lifetime limits on coverage or preexisting conditions, it does not restrict the doctor from performing procedures. In other words it is better than the United Healthcare, or Blue Cross you have now. The problem comes in that most people using it are frail and their understanding is hampered by the ravages of old age.

“I listen to everybody. Life is not a zero sum game. I am right and you are wrong. Most people are not all right or all wrong. You will never know which parts are right if you don’t listen to them.”

I agree about listening to all sides, but then you go on to argue that to KNOW which parts are right you have to listen to the other side, but at the same time, dispute one is right and one is wrong… quite circular… How can you listen to the other side to KNOW which parts are right when apparently noone can be wrong?

“I travel all over the country a lot. I have for years. The signs work to get you from town to town really well (except in Pennsylvania).”

I’ve been from coast to coast and outside the US continent, and I couldn’t disagree with you more… From town to town, right next door, you can find your way, but once you go beyond local, if you do not know where a town is situated NSEW from where you are at, and what road it comes off of, you can get lost VERY quck… The road system itself does NOT help you with this beyond local traffic…

“They get everybody in the USA to pay up.”

First off, they do NOT get “everybody” to pay up… There are HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS in uncollected taxes EVERY YEAR… This year is even worse…

NYTIMES - “UNCOLLECTED TAXES OVER $1,000,000,000” (get that, we’ve gone from HUNDREDS of BILLIONS to TRILLIONS in one year, and the year is not even done yet! - and guess what we have to do BECAUSE they could NOT collect the taxes - BORROW MORE MONEY - so they are COSTING us money to boot)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C05EED6163CE533A25756C1A9649D946195D6CF

Only in lala-land is that considered remotely successful… :bs

The article goes on to say in essence - THEY CAN’T HANDLE IT!

“That is no small feat.”

Actually, it is a very easy feat, as the people’s EMPLOYERS are the ones that collect the majority of income taxes FOR THE IRS… all the IRS does in this case is RECEIVE IT and apply it… The hard part is collecting from the ones who DON’T have it automatically deducted by their employer… and this is where they FAIL at it… now, imagine if the people had to send a check to the IRS every month… :rolleyes

"Fed-Ex has a daily volume of 1.5 million parcels versus the USPS of 250million. That is like saying that the high school state champion football team from your state can compete with any of the teams in the NFL. "

From the USPS website - “The mix of mail has changed significantly in recent years. As recently as 2000, First-Class Mail was by far the largest component of the mailstream. However, over the past four years, First-Class Mail volume has declined 5.4% while Standard Mail volume has grown 6.1%. This change in the mix of mail has flattened revenue because revenue growth has been coming from Standard Mail, which has an average revenue per piece of only 19 cents, compared with the average 37 cents per piece of the First-Class Mail it is replacing. In this new era, volume growth has been accompanied by the hollowing out of revenues.”

http://www.usps.com/history/anrpt04/images/AR_5.jpg

http://www.usps.com/history/anrpt04/images/AR_6.jpg

"“A wise and FRUGAL government… Thomas Jefferson” & “That is not what the government was intended to do. That was one man’s opinion.”

LOL… are you kidding me? So, to understand this correctly, the man who WROTE the Declaration of Independence, a MAJOR inlfuence in the Federal Republic role of the Constitution, was Secretary of State under Washington, a Governor, was the 2nd Vice President of the US, the 3rd President of the US says the above quote in his First Inaugural Address (he had two terms), and it’s “just his opinion”?

Puhleeese…

“But if it does provide the service it can’t, nor should it, be detracted from performing the task because of cost.”

And it is EXACTLY this kind of thinking that will lead to the eventual bankruptcy of our nation and WHY we are TRILLIONS of dollars in DEBT… thinking like this is the PROBLEM, not the solution…

"I assume you mean Medicare. Medicare is all of our insurance. "

Medicare was only part of what I was referring to… In any case, just like with Social Security, you have paid your whole life into it… but, guess what, not only do you have to STILL pay for premiums but according to MedPac, 91% of seniors have to buy supplemental insurance to fill the gaps and holes in the system… If it was as you tried to portray, this would NOT be necessary…

From SmartMoney - “According to the most recent data available from the Medicare Payment Advisory (MedPAC), a Congressional advisory panel, Medicare pays only 54% of beneficiaries’ total health-care expenditures. As a result, 91% seniors opt for some sort of supplemental insurance.”

"In other words it is better than the United Healthcare, or Blue Cross you have now.’

I don’t have to buy supplemental insurance to what I have now… yet 91% of seniors, ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT have to buy supplemental insurance to fill the gaps and holes in Medicare… and don’t forget… THEY PAID INTO IT THEIR WHOLE LIVES!.. Look at your W-2 if you have one, and you will start to see how they have been hoodwinked…

Here, educate yourself…

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html

“The problem comes in that most people using it are frail and their understanding is hampered by the ravages of old age.”

This is ludicrous… you turn 65, and all of a sudden, you’re frail and don’t understand… :bs No, the GOVERNMENT makes it hard to understand, simple and straight forward… They’ve dealt with insurance their whole life, and then when it gets to Medicare… poof all of a sudden, it becomes harder to understand…

It is a hard concept for a person that does not have an agile mind, but to paraphrase Captain Kirk from Star Trek when he said it is “important to know how things work on a star ship”. Things don’t work because one side thinks it works that way. You have to listen to see when your side is right and when your side is wrong. When it is wrong you have to let it go. When it is right you have to “fight” the battle.

I am not sure what you mean but I think I agree with you. You do need basic geography. When you are in Los Angeles you have to know if Bakersfield is north or south. But once you figure that out the signs take you right to Bakersfield, and then Fresno, and then Sacramento etc. No signs can help you if you leave Bakersfield and then expect to see San Diego.

The more I get to know you the more I admire you. It is good to know that the only reason you pay your taxes is because you want to. That is what I call a good citizen. The only reason I pay my taxes because I am scared of the IRS.

Employer withholding is another fact that proves the power of the IRS. Were it not for the IRS every employee would just claim 100 dependents on the W-4 and there would be no taxes with held.

I didn’t say it was not a great man’s opinion, I said it was a man’s opinion. The USA is not a for profit enterprise. When you go to war, you don’t want an ashtray on your submarine that is going to slide off a table and cause a fire so you pay $1000 for that ashtray. It is about being effective not cost efficient. Thomas Jefferson could not pay his personal bills or keep his wnakee off of his slaves. He was not the owner of the USA he was one of the founders.

We both agree on this. We have problems with our economy. I believe that we have problems with both the spending side as well as the income side. We don’t need to be revenue neutral. We can be in debt. But we need to have a plan to control how much debt we have to make sure our spending growth is tied to our income growth. But this has no bearing on having an effective program or not. To bring it back to real estate it is like buying a house that needs fixing up but fixing it up in a half assed way and expecting to make money. You have to do things right. If you can’t afford to fix the house right don’t buy the house. If the government can’t afford to provide a ambulance service that works then they should not provide a substandard ambulance service. It is not a business it is a government. We may decide we don’t want to provide a service, but if we provide it it has to be effective.

Back to my “understand how things work”. You are actually saying you want a new health care system. I agree. The proposed new plan makes sure we don’t have to buy a supplemental plan. It makes sure we don’t work all our lives and end up bankrupt because we spend 90% of all our medical expenses in the last 6 months of life and leave our kids with nothing. I am glad to know that you support the new “healthcare initiative”. I guess you listen to both sides also.