the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?

Random Ramblings
21

There is not a cross-section of people writing on this site. Landlords seem to be way more in the far right camp. I can almost visualize the black capes and handle-bar mustaches like in the old 30’s cartoons…although I am one myself.

Pirate story–no comment–I was tied up at work and missed most of that drama. I was glad that it was stopped–piracy can not be tolerated.

I don’t think my views are radical leftist, I think I am in the middle, but leaning left. I vote for candidates of both parties if I feel the Republican would do a better job.

The 30-second You Tube clip, taken out of context and the Fox News (Fox News!) do not prove a darn thing. Is this how you get your balanced, well-rounded news? An inflammatory one-sided news clip should just make you say, “Wait, I need to hear more than this biased crap.” Don’t believe everything you hear, especially if it comes from a very politicized source.

That’s why I like Larry King–he doesn’t just spout off a bunch of hot air opinion, instead he INTERVIEWS the actual people so we can hear THEIR words directly.

I read a ton, mostly books and magazines. So no, I am not stuck on the major media as my only source of news. I like PBS because it presents both sides of the issues. I just finished “Outliers, The Story of Success” by Malcolm Gladwell. I highly recommend it, a great read and it changed how I look at the world. Amazing book. Now I am reading “The Next 100 Years” by George Friedman, a not simplistic look at the future.

So back to the debate–since it was the opinion of the Bush attorney general that “It is not torture if it doesn’t cause major organ failure” then pulling out fingernails with pliers should be okay?! Burning with cigarettes should be okay? Tying someone to a board and pouring water into their mouth should be okay? The supposed end justifies the means?

And we should lop off heads because others do it? Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Torture is not okay. Never. Ever. And it does not create intelligence that can be relied on.

As The American Armies advanced into Germany at the end of WWII, the German populace streamed towards them, out of the path of the Russian Armies. The Russians, brutalized themselves by the Nazis, raped, killed and plundered the German civilian population as they advanced towards Berlin.

“Be saved by the Americans,” was the reputation America had then. If it were well-known and publicized now that “Americans do not torture. Americans treat captured people civilly” there would be former terrorists coming over to our side with useful intelligence. We could begin to turn the sentiment towards us. Instead the Bush regime has squandered our national image and put our soldiers at great risk.

The abortion debate–again, a medico-legal issue. I believe abortions should be 1st trimester only. Should parents have the right to abort a 16-or 18 week fetus after having an amniocentesis? Should a child with severe mental/physical handicaps that parents cannot handle be aborted at that stage? I sure as heck don’t know. It would be a horrible decision to have to make. Would you want your child in one of our under-funded institutions if you couldn’t care for it? This is where we the people need to weigh in with our opinions.

But for me, the rights of the woman to have a life trumps the right of fetal cells to continue growing in the first trimester. We have enough child abuse. We have hundreds of kids awaiting adoption in this state alone–no one wants that 10-year-old with a history of fetal alcohol or drug abuse. That’s where to spend our energies–not promoting more unwanted babies.

Furnishedowner

22

What is the proof that Obama is racist? Because he went to that goofy church in Chicago? I’m sure he just went to that church to advance his Chicago political career and establish some kind of roots in that community since he could be seen as a carpetbagger otherwise, being from Hawaii. Calculating politician, yes, racist no.

23

holdandbuy,
Two words for you -black theology-this is what rev wright preaches(if you wanna call that preaching).Also his wife michelle,do some reading up on this woman its not hard at all to see that she’s right there with rev wright.But here again we’re supposed to believe its all those around him but not him,right??Come on.I also agree that he’s a regular lying politician first and foremost,the sooner his cult figure that out, the better off we’ll all be. Also if we are on this site are’nt we trying to make more & help those we can get started in this?So why do any of you support a president who attacks capitalism& prosperity!!!

24

I have mixed feelings about what Obama, Geither, etc. have done so far with the economy. I don’t believe he’s a racist and I’m sure he’s probably an atheist or agnostic (although he could never admit this), regardless of whether he went to that church for 20 years or not. Notice how he threw Wright under the bus when it was necessary. It’s all about posturing, they all do it.
Obama has only been in office a few months. I’m willing to give him a couple of years before I decide how I feel about him. You guys are starting to remind me of those shrill Al Gore supporters back in 2000 who wouldn’t give Bush a chance after that whole mess with the election recounts.

25

“My grandmother was a typical white person, she would walk across the street to avoid a black person.” Im paraphrasing, but thats almost word for word on what he said. If that isnt racism, calling somebody a “typical white person” like that… then I dont know what is… Seriously.

26

Regarding the pirate story where Obama proudly took all credit for murdering 3 pirates but opposes the non murder techniques used. I am not surprised that you refuse to answer the question.

You are radical left but don’t know it. I now realize that since you say you switch back and forth in votes that you don’t even know what each party even stands for. There are pro life and pro choice republicans and democrats. There are republicans and democrats who want more or less social programs or spending.

There is only one major primary difference between democrats and republicans. Democrats across the board believe in more federal government control. They think the solution to every problem is more government control.

Republicans across the board are anti federal government control. They believe in states rights. This way states and towns can make their own laws and if you don’t like them you can leave to another state. This creates competition between states. Big daddy federal government control (which is illegal by the constitution by the way) makes it so if you don’t like it, tough, you will have to leave the entire United States to get away from it.

The federal government was put in place for military protection only. They have no constitutional right to make national laws and have slipped their way into doing so by raising taxes to an insane level. The entire federal government was operated in Abe Lincolns days with 5% of the nations paychecks. Look at it now. Well, they use the excess to force states to pass laws that they want but have no right to impose. For example, seat belt laws. A victimless crime. Well the federal government says to the states, we want you to pass these laws and blow millions of the tax payers dollars a year in promoting the victimless crime. If you don’t do what we say we will give you NO highway funds. The same goes for prostitution, illegal marijuana and many other ridicules crimes.

Regarding Fox news, the statement was NOT taken out of context and FOX news is the most balanced news that there is. Only the radical left would say a comment like that.

Proof:
http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6527454/the-drive-in/fox-news-most-balanced-according-to-independent-un/index.html

There was a huge reason why your favorite PBS was not picked. I too watch PBS, but it is to get the opinions from the radical left. PBS talks and talks about how their news is balanced but it is nothing but trickery. Look at the show News Hour with the far left David Brooks and the New York Times conumnist moderate democrat posing as a conservative, Mark Shields.

This is a perfect example of what PBS does. They hire moderate leftists to pose as republicans and even have the gall to have one say he is a Conservative. There Is Not One Single Conservative In America That Thinks That Guy Is A Conservative. He isn’t even a republican.

I see you are one of the sheep that Baaaa leeeeeve what they are told by the main stream media. Maybe one day you will listen to conservatives and you will understand where the right stands on issues. Then you will watch Fox News and see where the base Republicans stand. This really shows how far left you actually are if you think Mark Shields is a conservative or PBS is balanced. Instead of blocking out what I am saying like most liberals do when they are told something that they don’t want to hear, just consider the fact that I just may be right.

And regarding what you said about abortions and 1st trimester, that is not what we were talking about. We were talking about Obama saying that a baby who is aborted and survived, should be killed anyways because if it lives it would be going against the original decision. Don’t change the subject please. We are trying to see if you are as evil as Obama.

27

Furnishedowner,

“Pirate story–no comment–I was tied up at work and missed most of that drama. I was glad that it was stopped–piracy can not be tolerated.”

So, “to be clear”, you are OK with Obama ordering the ASSASSINATION/KILLING of the three pirates, who were only after MONEY, to save ONE captain, but you are against Bush/CIA waterboarding, within strick guidelines and to extract CRUCIAL INFORMATION, which they were successful at, with a medical team at the ready no less, LEAVING THEM ALIVE afterwards which SAVED not ONE but countless other lives?

Please help us understand your logic here… because I don’t think you truly understand what actual torture is…

Also, you still never defended your position on this (and I think we know why deep down) - "The thing that absolutely astounds me is that you say you would sit on your hands and not waterboard someone who was standing in the way of your INNOCENT child being in mortal danger (I never said “help” them as you try to mischaracterize it to make it more palataple, I specifically said - “and one of them was in mortal danger, and the only way to save them was to get information from someone”)? You would not exhaust ALL ways to get this information? You mean you are willing to sacrifice your INNOCENT child for the terrorist?"

I don’t believe you would… but, prove me wrong and explain this to us… if you would trade your INNOCENT childs life for someone’s “right” to perpetuate that evil, by not telling you how to remove that mortal danger by withholding measures that would give you access to this information, then you have some soul-searching to do on this…

“And it does not create intelligence that can be relied on.”

As we’ve seen from the quotes from the intelligence heads involved, INCLUDING Obama’s OWN DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, who - "CONCURS that these interrogations yielded “high value information.”, your assertion on this is patently false… you are just trying to ignore this information, as it does not fit with your narrative… however, this ignorance does NOT change the facts…

28

Furnisedowner,

Abortion - “I believe abortions should be 1st trimester only. Should parents have the right to abort a 16-or 18 week fetus after having an amniocentesis? Should a child with severe mental/physical handicaps that parents cannot handle be aborted at that stage? I sure as heck don’t know. It would be a horrible decision to have to make. Would you want your child in one of our under-funded institutions if you couldn’t care for it? This is where we the people need to weigh in with our opinions”

Perhaps if you began to view life as life, and not as one qualifies over the other because of physical or mental deficits, it would make it easier for you… To be certain at what you intimiating so there is no confusion… Are you saying that someone with a disability, no matter how severe, that their life is less valuable than it’s polar opposite (i.e. - a completely healthy baby at birth, even though it may develop a life-altering desease later in life)?

There are MANY examples of people being born with dabilitating deseases or abnormalities that go on to lead extraordinary lives… I don’t think you need a list, but I will provide you with one if you want…

What about the people who develop these life-altering deseases during their lifetime as opposed to before or even right after birth? Are they less of a life than the next?

What is literraly AMAZING about alot of these people is that the medical community had all written them off, and they not only proved them wrong but went on to lead extraordinary lives (and continue to), positively affecting millions of other people…

“… the rights of the woman to have a life trumps the right of fetal cells to continue growing in the first trimester.”

Putting aside the complete selfishness of that statement (i.e. - “right to have a life”), by week nine, their fingerprints, you know the biometric standard used for identification, are fully formed… NOT a collection of cells… never mind a beating heart, growing brain, hands and feet, etc… - All HARDLY just “fetal cells” but a formed and reactive body… Most women do not even know they are pregnant at this point… Look at some 3D ultrasound images, and you will not be able to classify the baby/fetus as a collection of cells, as early as four-five weeks…

Furnishedowner, you seem to want to sanitize what I believe you already know in your heart is wrong, which is why you use eupheism’s to distance yourself from harsh realities that it is not ony a life, but a baby… Even taking out the term baby and just using life, by saying that the woman has the right to end that life because it is inconvenient (half of abortions are by woman who’ve had one before… so no learning there), then when it is also “not convenient” for adtuls to pay for or care for their aging parents, should their “right to a life” give them a right to end their elderly parents life? If not, WHY not?

“Should parents have the right to abort a 16-or 18 week fetus after having an amniocentesis? Should a child with severe mental/physical handicaps that parents cannot handle be aborted at that stage? I sure as heck don’t know”

What is seemingly bizarre to me is that you place such emphasis on protecting terrorists from waterboarding, who were picked up in the act, than you do in defending the defenseless, who’s only defense from death is reliant on a misinformed mother’s conscious which is sanitized by referring to it as a collection of cells. Technology has dramatically changed in just the past 10 years…

BTW, I do not believe you are “evil”…

29

Do any of you honestly believe that if this election was the year after 9/11 that obama with his questionable past would stand a chance?He could’nt even pass the screening to be a secret service agent!So why are some choosing to overlook the fact that the media has created this great guy that is so in touch with all(under the axelrod research team which writes those great speeches).It’s sad alot can’t see whats goin on behind the curtain.All you have to do to know where we’re headed is look @ how chevez has taken over the money(oil co.)and the media.So go ahead give him more time if you like,we’ll be here when the trance wears off.

30

Hooch,
Very scary post…“We are trying to see if you are as evil as Obama”!

You have some dark thoughts in your closet. Heck, I thought we were just having a political discussion. Where do you live? And are you taking your medication?
Okay, sorry for that jab, but let’s not call each other “evil”. Misinformed, ignorant, opinionated, okay. But not evil. And neither is Obama. Cheney, however…

Positive Outlook,
I GAVE you my opinions on waterboarding, torture, etc. You like to regurgitate questions and chew them up again! You go on and on! Just read back a post or two and you will have my opinions.

Hoosier,
Obama is himself multiracial, half-White, half-Black. He was quoting his grandmother, not himself. And I have known a number of little ol’ white ladies who had the same fears years ago. Just because he quoted his grandmother doesn’t make him a racist. That would be an oxymoron.

Hooch,
I agree with you that laws should be changed on some victimless crimes. I had a friend who basically lost his whole future because he was caught twice with marijuana. He wasn’t hurting anybody, wasn’t even a regular user.

But not the seatbelt laws! Think “crushing chest injury”–that’s what happens when the steering wheel goes into your chest at 40 MPH! Think being in an ER picking glass out of a screaming, bleeding toddler’s face. If there wasn’t a law, and a fine, millions of dumb parents would let their little kids ride around loose in their cars. We just had a 5-person fatality here, whole family wiped out, no seatbelts. This costs our society and economy. We save lives and money with that law.

Furnishedowner

31

Furnishediowner,

“You like to regurgitate questions and chew them up again!”

No, I only REPEAT questions that have NOT been answered… let’s try this directly again with this the only question on this post, as you totally AVOIDED and DID NOT answer any of the questions on abortion… this has become your MO… let’s keep it simple…

“The thing that absolutely astounds me is that you say you would sit on your hands and not waterboard someone who was standing in the way of your INNOCENT child being in mortal danger (I never said “help” them as you try to mischaracterize it to make it more palataple, I specifically said - “and one of them was in mortal danger, and the only way to save them was to get information from someone”)? You would not exhaust ALL ways to get this information? You mean you are willing to sacrifice your INNOCENT child for the terrorist?”

Let’s see if we can get an answer this time…

32

Okay, let’s say my daughter, Little Nell, is tied to the railroad tracks and I hear the distant train coming! But I don’t know exactly where on the tracks she is!

Now I will personally dash over to that black-robed terrorist who is gleefully chuckling and wrap MY HANDS around his throat until he chokes out, “Over there!”

Is that good enough for you?

But for terrorists, or murder suspects, or other evil doers I would let TRAINED INTERROGATORS interrogate. Heck, they could even use truth serum, sodium pentothal if that were sanctioned. But proven methods–good cop, bad cop, speaking in their native language, time, repeated questioning, “the Stockholm Syndrome”, amnesty–there are scores of techniques that yield intelligence that can be corroborated. Without resorting to the dubious intelligence gleaned from hurting someone grevously.

Check out the movie “Rendition”. Good movie, had the spiderman actor and a couple of other famous actors in it. A true story of a Canadian chemical engineer who happened to get confused with someone else. Very unsettling what could happen to an innocent airline traveler. Like you or me. Don’t forget that the far right is on government watch lists. These are our freedoms we are talking about.

Freedom from torture is number one in my opinion. That’s why I send money to the ACLU every year. I don’t like ALL of their cases that they defend. They do defend even scumbags whose rights have been violated. But the idea of defending those rights is why I send them those checks.

Furnishedowner

33

Amnesty? Now were negotiating with terrorists? So they can live another day, plotting against us? No thanks.

And your answer was very… dodgy.

How about you answer the direct question.

Would you waterboard somebody… to save your daughter?

Big difference between that, and killing the person who tied your daughter up to a railroad track.

34

Furnishedowner,

                 I'm very surprised that you'd go to such extreme measures to save the life of your daughter but won't permit the same behavior by others to save the lives of their families or mine.

A fact to ponder:
There have been drugs since the development of “Sodium Pentothal” that are more effective as “truth serums”. When used, they are extremely effective at letting investigators get to the truth. Unfortunately, they leave the captor with serious permanent brain damage. Remembering that these people consider it an honor to die in the process of killing Americans, I think that some temporary discomfort delivered in the form of a simulated drowning that leaves the captor functional is a bit more humane than creating non-functional vegetables out of them.

The far right is on government watch lists. I hope that the ACLU is protecting their rights as they protect rights which don’t belong to our enemies. Remember, Fascism is coming on strong from far Left. Don’t be so blind as not to see it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

JP

35

Torture is “temporary discomfort”?!

Let’s listen to John McCain on this one.

Furnishedowner

36

Furnished,
I wonder what daniel pearl would consider “torture” of those who cut his head off??And you were right on obama’s grandmothers bit,only that the point was OBAMA CALLED HER A “TYPICAL WHITE PERSON”!!!But I guess you did’nt catch that angle. “Hope” is’nt a plan and "change"really can mean anything,almost like the CREATE OR SAVE thousands of jobs(its impossible to prove this!!!).Face it the media’s favorite person is letting america fail,PERIOD!!!

37

Waterboarding is temporary discomfort. Your previous suggestion ruins a life permanently.

JP

38

Furnishedowner,

"Now I will personally dash over to that black-robed terrorist who is gleefully chuckling and wrap MY HANDS around his throat until he chokes out, “Over there!”

First off, I want to applaud you for what was an obviously hard thing for you to come to terms with… I also assume that had the terrorist in your example NOT answered you with your hands wrapped around his throat, and instead said “Soon, you will know", like Khalid Sheik Mohammed did, that you indeed would have done everything in your power to get that information out of him, INCLUDING waterboarding him… If I am wrong, correct me, but I don’t believe I am…

That said, it starts to zero-in on the challenge that these people had to deal with… we had just lost over 3000 souls, and Osama had not only announced that more was on the way, but that he was actively going after chemical and biological weapons, and it was a FOREGONE CONCLUSION that we would be attacked again, it was just a matter of when and where. in spite of this, Bush/CIA er al KEPT US SAFE, with the waterboarding of these three, yes, three terrorists being a key reason…

Look at this article…
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

From the article… "In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason WHY al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”

Now imagine if the CIA did NOT waterboard Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was the mastermind behind 9/11, to get him to give up the info once waterboarded regarding the “second-wave” (another 9/11 type attack), and that they were successful in this second-wave, and it came to light that Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was in our hands, HAD this information but we did not due EVERYTHING possible to get it from him… DO you think the fact that MORE innocent people into the hundreds and possibly thousands dying under this circumstance would have been in any way acceptable by saying = “I’m sorry, we couldn’t waterboard him to get the information… it’s torture”…

Now imagine someone stopping you from putting your hands around the neck of the terrorist in your example and said - “no, we can’t do that… it’s torture and it’s not what America is about”… Your reaction would most likely be the same as those would have lost THEIR family and friends in the “second-wave”… are you insane?..

So I guess waterboarding, to quote liberals on abortion (which 100% of the time takes the life of the innocent through methods that if applied to adults would actually BE torture resulting in death), should be “safe, legal and rare”…

Something to consider…

39

Furnishedowner,

I am shocked that you are saying that murdering a poor little baby that managed to survive a botched abortion is not “evil”. Wow, what is the world coming to?

I am genuinely curious if we are being effected by the pcb’s in plastic leaching into our food when it is heated in the microwave or coffee maker. It seems that there is a large group of people who have lost touch with both reason and logic and some of the deep morals and values that used to be so prevalent in Americans in general.

You should rent this movie for a balanced perspective of the issue at hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b6h0lsiQcw

I at one point was indifferent to the abortion issue and was one of the few conservatives who were pro abortion. I changed my mind from this movie.

40

BTW, the definition of torture as put out by the UN et al would make all inmates in prison considered to be suffering torture according to their standard…

Just a thought…