No money down on a multi family?

Although we probably buy more than most new investors, the strategy we follow works well and may be an idea for the future.

We use local commercial banks for the reasons outlined earlier for initial purchases of multi-family (and single family too for that matter). In our case we usually put down 15% or use a private party to fund the downpayment. Then we clean up the property and either resell or keep for our long term portfolio. About every 6 months we’ll take those we’re keeping and bundle together and refinance on a longer term note with a regional bank such as Wachovia or BB&T. Typically we’re putting together a portfolio of $750K or more in property for these refis.

A couple of reasons.

  1. The local banks in our area like the short term money so they can get the fees and such. Typically 9 mo to 12 months.

  2. Even though we borrow in the company name we still sometimes are asked for member or owner guarantees. By not borrowing too much with the local banks before we turn over to a larger bank we don’t hit guarantee limits. Limits are higher for larger banks than for local banks.

  3. The larger banks are more willing to do fixed rate loans at decent rates whereas the local banks have to mitigate their risk a bit more so they tend to want to go with adjustable or floating rate notes, which can get one into trouble, esp in an environment where rates are rising.

  4. When we refi with the larger bank we may be able to pull out a bit of equity for operating capital and we in all cases pay off our private lenders – that keeps them in queue when we need money for new deals.

By utilizing leverage intelligently we’re able to realize good returns on our capital.

Local banks differ in their policies and procedures but when you can use them they really do make life easier. Develop the relationships with your local banks and as long as you do what you say and stay current on all obligations you’ll find they’re typically an excellent choice for funding.

RYMAN,

You have obviously been listening to your Steven Marshall conference calls and reading “Missed Fortune”. Your plan is solid other than the fact that neg-ams don’t work anymore because appreciation has stopped growing at such a high rate. Because of the index rates rising the neg-am loan does not make sense anymore. At least on investment property. Lets say your start rate is 1.25%. Your qualifying rate is 6.76%. . .Your qualifying rate is 4.52% after you consider the tax write off at the end of the year (assuming a 33% tax bracket). Which leaves you a difference of 3.27% being dropped back onto your loan in neg-am every month. So assuming that you have a good financial planner working in your corner you can earn a steady solid 7% annual rate of return on your investment, but minus the neg-am you are looking at CD levels of interest on your money. This is not taking into account the fact that your start rate is going to go up annually as well. In addition to the fact that you are going to have to refinance every two years to avoid having your loan readjust after you hit the 110% mark on your neg-am loan. Which is going to hit your pocket book as well because the neg-am has eaten up all your equity because you are not getting 10% equity increases in the past like the last couple of years. Why not just do a short to mid-term ARM interest only for 10 years. At 6.375% with the adjustment for taxes your rate would be 4.27% almost the same as the above scenario but you don’t have to worry about the index adjusting on a regular basis (the only time you think about the index is at the end of your fixed term) and you are not eating into your equity or your appreciation. In your scenario you say the client is protected even if the property goes down in value. That may be so because they have the investment account, but what happens when they have to refinance and as I stated above they don’t have the equity available to cover the costs because the neg-am has eaten their equity, and now the house is worth less than they owe? They have to dip into that investment account which gets them a negative net return.

In an enviroment where homes are appreciating at a convincing rate like in the past the neg-am makes sense, but in today’s market the values are remaining flat or even going down in many areas of the country. Check out this thread.

http://www.reiclub.com/forums/index.php?board=29;action=display;threadid=18797

Also on many of the HELOC’s I have done when the client takes a draw they have the option of locking in at that rate for that draw amount. You mention that HELOC’s are volatile, but you are pushing a neg-am loan?

No, I’m not pushing a deferred-interest loan. I don’t “push” any loan program. As you probably do in your business, I evaluate the client’s full financial picture, goals, etc. before advising on a particular loan product. I make the same whichever product I place them in and, since my business has been pretty much 100% referral for years, I’d rather make a point on 20 closes a month, and receive glowing praise from the client (as well as their realtor who’s used to seeing considerably higher points) then 2 points on 10 closes a month, with only half or less referrals from these transactions.

No, I’ve not been listening to “conference calls” or reading strategy books. I have a background in financial planning, and recognize, after much research on my part, the role that particular financing vehicle plays in property purchases.

You also assume the start rate will climb every month. That’s a tragic fallacy, as you can see by studying the historical index rates. Three years ago, when the index was very low, I was cashflowing like a geyser. And when the index is up, I can review my options. Nevertheless, in a hold position, my experience is my overall return is higher than playing the short game, or especially the refi game. Too often the client loses more in the refi costs than the savings that were realized, often because his mortgage consultant didn’t run a break-even analysis. Some of my deferred loans I’ve had without refinancing for over 6 years, and I’ve not had any of them re-cast due to the 110% being reached. In a market of approximately 3% annual increase in value, your deferred interest is usually covered. If this is a concern, one could, I suppose, apply invested funds to avoid this re-cast situation, however I’ve never had to do this.

You state the smart thing is to do a mid-term ARM interest-only for 10 years. That may be a sound strategy however, in light of the current negative yield curve on short to long-term funds, fairly often one can recieve the same rate on a 30-year fixed as on a 3 or 5-year ARM, and have greater protection on a potential long-term hold.

Also, you state that if they refinance, they don’t have the equity to cover the costs because the neg-am has eaten their equity. A number of factors would have to occur in this scenario. The first is the market values would have to plummet approximately 15% in a 5 year period of time, their investment would have to have realized an ROI of less than the accrual rate on the loan, and they would somehow realize a monetary benefit to refinancing.

It’s been a rare case in this country when a market experiences a continual drop in property values over a mid-term period of 5 or so years. Even in SoCal a few years ago, it took 7 years to dip 20%, with ups and downs during that period, following by a sustained surge in corrected value. And this loss of market value was impacted and created by outside forces that were, at the time, unlikely in the extreme. The first was LA and OC governments either going bankrupt through extreme mis-management (or nearly so in OC’s case), the second was a sustained recession at the national level, and the third was a negative immigration into SoCal from outlying states. In the foreseeable future, one could argue it, again, unlikely in the extreme for all these events to occur at the same time.

This is not a product I “push”. In certain cases it makes sense, just as, in certain cases, other products make sense. It does me a professional disservice to place a client into a loan product that isn’t the proper one for them, in light of my being able to rely on referral and repeat business.

Finally, there is a software product I use that runs all scenarios in an equal and logical manner that assists me in better understanding the potential of differing vehicles to place my clients into, as well as my real estate portfolio. It also hasn’t hurt that my last 10-year rate of return on my investment pool has realized a 13% yield through diversification of my funds, and I’ve experienced a steady increase in the value of my real estate holdings values.

HELOC’s have been volatile in the past 18 months, as anyone with one during that time can attest to from the large jump in their monthly payment.

I hope this clears up the idea that I choose to advise anyone on any one way of financing real estate. That would be foolish in the extreme.
Thanks!

RYMAN,

Glad to hear your doing well for yourself.

Although you say you have not been reading strategy books or listening to conference calls it is AMAZING how much everything you say sounds like it is coming directly out of Douglas Andrew’s mouth. Even your Billy and Bob scenario is eerily close to the “two brothers” scenario first created by Ric Edelman. Guess it must all be one huge coincidence. ::slight_smile:

However if I were you I would contact those guys and ask them to stop profiting from your “original” ideas, as well as Dave Savage at the Mortgage Coach and ask him to stop infringing on your “software”.

I believe the point of this site is to help each other with knowledge; not slam other peoples ideas and brag about how much money you are making or not making, and especially not talking down to people which you seem to be very good at.

I read a couple of you say that you can use a HELOC but is that possible when you actually do not have title- can you do it with a P&S?