Housing bubble

DFW, you argue very persuasively, and you are clearly very knowledgeable about the Fed, macroeconomics, and the mortgage markets. I am enjoying reading this discussion.

Perhaps my outlook is colored by my past experiences with a decline in real estate prices in the aggregate in the 1980’s. I know from firsthand experience that home prices can decline with tragic consequences for the owners. If you were in Texas during this time, you know full well the effects. Maybe I am expecting a similar thing to happen again. I know that the past does not necessarily equal the future, but I see the danger signs. The housing market is more vulnerable now, in part, because of the large percentage of adjustable rate mortgages used to purchase properties (as much as 40% of mortgage originations recently), and the high percentage of houses purchased by speculators instead of owner occupants (as much as 25% of home sales according to NAR).

As the article stated, “… leveraged participants possess no capacity to withstand adverse trends. They become forced sellers into a falling market, which pressures prices even more, which forces more
speculators to sell into a falling market…” If something triggers a shock to the markets, such as a rise in interest rates, there are enough weak owners of houses to start defaulting on their obligations. Many people have no reserves whatsoever. The savings rate is 0% on average, and overall household debt is at record levels.

If this starts, it will cascade.

Check out this story: “America’s in Debt Denial”

http://www.bankrate.com/ibd/news/debt/debtcreditguide/debt-denial1.asp

Remember Alan Greenspan’s talk on over valued housing prices some time back? The market is simply adjusting to its true value. Having buyers purchase houses at crazy prices on ARMs without any real growth in the economy is not a smart endeavor. Buyers are buying homes on the premise of low rates offered in the housing market by loan and mortgage officers. Of course, they are enticing people to buy houses with 100% financing on ARMs for their own gains.
You must realize that there is a problem, if low rates are the result of the mild recession of the late 90s and not because of any enactment of sound monetary and economic policies by the Feds.
However, it is imminent that if the Feds decide to up interest rates two more times, then hot markets will go cold instantly.
There is some good news though. I just saved a bunch of money by switching to GEICO. (a distraction).
The Feds will not increase rates for these reasons:

  1. Oil money: The government must ensure that the oil boys are taxed heavily so as to channel the proceeds from the windfall tax toward sustaining the economy by maintaining rates at the current levels in the short run. This will act as a stabilizing measure for the time being.
  2. Inflationary measures: The government cannot afford to further mop up circulation of cash in the economy without providing ways in which people (home owners) can be gainfully employed here in the US in the long run. How can you effectively regulate sound monetary and fiscal policies in a volatile economy such as ours? The Feds have only been able to regulate policies and and not innovate policies, thus far. You wonder why a panel of tax experts just submitted a proposal to reform the tax laws which will not favor home owners? That is the way forward.
  3. Forex: As long as the USD is still a determinant force in the forex market, we can still remain above water. If the so-called axis of evil (not my view) nations influence others to commence major trades in Euros, then the USD over time, will seek to be devalued as a way to curtail inflationary trends. China, N.Korea and Iran are transacting major deals using Euros. A good reason why Iraqi oil ought to be controlled by pro American citizens.

First - Valgolas, thank you for the compliment. I am enjoying this conversation as well.

Also, bear in mind that at the end of every refi boom there is a move from fixed rates to ARMs. This happens everytime. In the 1990’s the 30 Year fixed rate hovered around 8% while ARMs hovered around 6% so there was quite a difference in the Principle and Interest payment. What is somewhat curious is the fact that this refi boom has ended with a smaller spread between fixed rates and ARM rates. This actually makes ARMS less attractive. This is strange, but so is the historically tame inflation (which when analyzed does make sense to have the interest spread smaller).

Also, another key factor that hasn’t been mentioned before is that the average 30 year mortgage only lasts 5.2 years before the borrowers either refinance or sell. What people don’t seem to consider here is that if a 5/1 ARM is a lower interest rate, AND you plan on moving within 5 years, it really no sense at all to get a 30 year mortgage.

America has historically been a nation of non-savings. We are a consumption nation. This is not a new phenomenon. Also, the Japanese are historically a saving nation, however we’ve been quite properous in the last 15-20 years and the Japanese have been in a 10-15 year recession. As the public spend so GROWS the economy. More spending means more Jobs. More jobs mean more tax revenue and more people with income to spend. More jobs mean higher demand for labor and thus higher wages. The individual savings rate has many pros and cons so don’t just let the low savings rate bother you. It can in many ways mean the economy is stronger.

Oski -

Greenspan has stated on many occasions that he doesn’t forsee a housing bubble bursting. He has stated, and in some circles too flak for promoting one product over others, that ARMS have been more favorable for consumers for the last 10 years than fixed rated loans. He was the one that continued to support rate hikes ‘at a measured pace’ for the fed funds rate. Your Greenspan arguements aren’t entirely correct. Then entire monetary policy that we have is setforth by the Federal Reserve, of which he’s been the figurehead since 1987 (Reagan was still in office). He’s widely considered the most powerful man on earth because he can shift market sentiment and thus ‘move’ billions of dollars with just a statement.

Perhaps people here should realize that buying a house with 100% financing on an ARM is NOT COMMON at all. Most A Paper lenders (those that sell to Fannie or Freddie pools) do not have 100% financing on Adjustable Rate Mortgages. They do occur of course, but it’s not like 90% of all originations are 100% Interest Only Arms No Doc, stated income stated debt products.

Also, it’s almost a certainty that the fed will continue to raise since the inflation forcast has hit almost 4% accross the board. The Fed uses rates to curb inflation and protecting the value of the dollar. I do not see where you’re claiming this will make the hot markets go cold instantly. YOU DO realize that long term interest rates and short term interest rates are not directly linked right? YOU DO realize that the basis for determining the par rate for mortgages is the 10 Year treasury note, who’s yield is based purely on demand by investors right?

You mention a tax panel created for tax reform and mention this affects home owners. You do realize this is just a suggestion to curb a tax shortage that would occur buy raising the alternative minimum tax because that cut off point hasn’t changed since 1970. Since that time, people’s income has risen and the AMT hasn’t. This was designed to keep the rich from not paying any taxes due to tax shelters, however it will increasing affect the middle class since the AMT starting point hasn’t changed in 35 years. The tax panel was created to find other POSSIBLE solutions and one such solution was to decrease the mortgage interest payment deduction. This suggestion was for mortgages of greater than $300,000.

You also ask how they can effectively regulate sound monetary policy in an economy as volitile as ours? Ummmmmm…we’re one of the more stable economies in the world, other countries buy the Dollar because their own currency is not as stable. Other countries buy our government backed securities because we have never once defaulted on them and their own governments have. We’re not a volitile economy compared to other economies. How can they regulate monetary policy effectively? Well they have for over 50 years so I guess it’s not impossible.

Your comments on the FOREX make no sense to me. The EURO has underperformed since it’s inception and the Dollar is the most stable currency. You say the USD will be devalued to curtail inflationary trends? That statement makes no sense at all. You don’t devalue currency to curtail inflation, that IS inflation.

Oski, overall your comments seem like alot of rheotoric but no real data or logic seems to be present. Care to elaborate more?

DFW,

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I am new to real estate investing. In fact, I don’t know a whole lot at all and I am trying to make sense of it all.

I am going to find a book about the “Bull-Whip” effect but I was also wondering if you could point me to some other great books or resources for a new guy looking to get into real estate investment.

Thanks!

The bull-whip effect is not real estate specific and unless supply-chain management or economics interests you (which, sadly, it does interest me) there isn’t any real need to read up on it. That being said just do a google search and you’ll many articles detailing the effects.

I brought that whole thing up to illustrate how the rapidly increasing information transfer rate changes the dynamic of the markets by making the swings from Bull to Bear and back, less drastic.

Here is a prime example of how the media creates this ‘housing bubble fear’. This article is from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2005-11-28-existing-home-sales_x.htm

The interesting thing to note is the Headline ‘Existing home sales fall…’ Given that it’s October and this happens every year, it’s like a news article that reads ‘Water is Wet!’. Now, this just isn’t news. This is further illustrated in the body of the article (if you can call it that) where Action Economics has this quote:

"In a note to clients, Action Economics points out that existing
home prices usually decline at a 6% rate in the fourth quarter of the year, making the current drop so far seasonably small. "

AND

“In total, there remains little evidence in reported data of an atypical adjustment in the sector, despite market chatter,’ Action Economics says.”

Market Chatter - I love that term.

Well I agree that the arms are going to be the down fall that is for sure. I have seen more and more banks doing 40 year mortgages yet still another way to allow the American people to get a lower payment and owe more on there house! Yeah at this rate we could all go buy 800k houses and keep up with the Jones! Wouldent that be great lets see I am going to be 31 next month so I can own my house free and clear when I am 71 and oh yeah I know my social security will cover that mortgage no problem and by the way for 800k you pay over 1.5 million in interest over that 40 years so as long as I can sell that house in 2045 for 2,300,000.00 I will break even on all the money I paid for it that is where everyone is so mistaken on there home being a great investment sure it is safer then the stock market but I will make more off my rentals then I will my own house in the long run. Now they are talking about getting rid of part of our homeowners tax write offs do yourself and everyone around you a huge favor CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN and tell them that needs to stop! Not that I vented I sure feel better!

Phew!
DFW, much kudos to your brilliant write ups. I am quite pained that you tore up my last piece without any thought to my message (ha ha).
I made it clear that there will be no housing bubble per se because of certain factors currently working in favor of the economy but that if these factors go belly up then our worst fears will materialize.
There will only be a decline in housing prices which does not in anyway spell doom. This will be the one true reality check on the over priced value of houses especially in the hot markets.
A quick question though; since you are astute in the business of gathering data with respect to the housing sector, what will be your take for RE Investors in the next six months. In what area of the housing market should investors be skewing toward? Could it be foreclosures, new develoments or?

Oski- Unfortunately real estate is so specific to each region that it’s hard to guess. There are alot of things that I don’t think will happen though. I don’t think prices will fall. I don’t think they will continue double digit gains either. I don’t think that people get 40 mortgages with the intent to EVER stay in the house though. I don’t think people realize that the MAJORITY of homeowners in the U. S. still have alot of equity in their house. I don’t think people realize that the new loans that are underwritten on 40 year mortgages require 10% Down at closing. I don’t think people realize that the underwriting guidelines that are in place for 100% financing, ARMS, or 40 year mortgages are not easy to qualify for and that the borrower’s credit, cash reserves, income ratios and LTV must all be good.

Here’s an example of conforming Interest Only Arm guidelines - Max LTV / CLTV is 90% and typical credit scores are 620+ at a MINIMUM although it’s ultimately determined by Desktop Underwriter.

For 40 year mtgs here’s an example of the requirements - Max LTV is 90% and FICO requirement of 660+.
(P.S. For a 40 year mortgage it only lowers your P&I roughly 10% but if you’re staying in the house for 5 or fewer years, it’s not a bad option because you don’t build alot of equity in a home in the first 5 years from amortization anyway)

For a file that is alt doc stated income - FIXED rate only - minimum credit score of 715 Assets are still verified with 4 months PITI reserves, primary residence only no investment properties.

Now, I know there are more lenient lenders out there. But you have to realize that the lenient lenders are not the norm, they are the exception. The above loan programs I referenced are what typical A paper lenders u/w based on. The conforming loans have to meet Fannie or Freddie guidelines to be sold in the MBS pool.

Ok, so there is my rant about what the ACTUAL u/w looks like on these loans. I know everyone wants to believe that lenders just randomly loan out money on a whim, but it’s really not like that for the majority of lenders.

For the next six months Oski - without a major shift economicially I don’t see any reason to believe that all of the sudden there will be massive forclosures. People just have too much equity from the rapidly increasing prices to walk away empty handed most of the time. They are certainly out there, but I don’t see that sector completely outperforming the other sectors. We actually could have a whole new thread about ‘philosophies’ that would be interesting. For instance KD likes to refi to 80% and maximize cash flow, I differ on my philosophy because I like to maximize leverage. It’s all about what your philosophy is.

i agree with DFW take on this.

however i think we will see high single digit inflation over the next several year and maybe a
recession lead by devaluing dollar and increased oil & commodity prices. even though the
actual price of RE may not drop, in terms of inflationary decrease in the dollars buying power
it may not keep up with inflation.

For the next six months Oski - without a major shift economicially I don’t see any reason to believe that all of the sudden there will be massive forclosures. People just have too much equity from the rapidly increasing prices to walk away empty handed most of the time. They are certainly out there, but I don’t see that sector completely outperforming the other sectors. We actually could have a whole new thread about ‘philosophies’ that would be interesting. For instance KD likes to refi to 80% and maximize cash flow, I differ on my philosophy because I like to maximize leverage. It’s all about what your philosophy is.

The key word is “rapid”. When any investment rapidlies increases for no reason other than speculation, it will eventually fall. I am already starting to see the fall in my location. Real Estate is soft at best right now where I am so sellers are accepting discounted offers. The first to sell will be speculators, the ones who are losing 500 a month on there so called “great deal”. Then the ones with variable mortgages, oops it just went up 1% now they can’t afford it. Than the new home owners, who couldn’t afford a home unless the government helps them out, there is a reason these people usually rent for rest of their lives, but I won’t get into that here.

So I do predict that areas of “rapid” appreciation will see a decline, how big, who knows. Areas that did not appreciate during the greatest Real Estate bonanza of our lifetime, well believe they don’t have much to worry about.

I love the sensationalist medias take on the current numbers…they just love a crisis don’t they?

Interest rates have risen slightly, and home prices in many areas of the country have risen rapidly year after year…the cycle has to end sometime. Here’s what the Bubblicious Reporters aren’t reporting though; OCT-JAN IS TRADITIONALLY THE SLOW TIME OF YEAR FOR REAL ESTATE SALES!!!

OF COURSE THE MARKETS HAVE SLOWED…IT’S THAT TIME OF YEAR!!! I’ll be interested to see where interest rates are at mid February & March. March has been the hottest month overall over the past 5 years in my region.

Of equal importance will be the number of active listings relative to demand. The area in which I live is actually seeing a marked decrease in homes being offered for sale. Simultaneously the demand is increasing significantly–thanks to a strong job market. Low supply vs. high demand…GEE…I wonder which way the market’s gonna go! The ONLY wild card insofar as I see it is…interest rates.

Many other areas of the country are experiencing the exact opposite…rising supply & diminishing demand. Those markets are cycling & it’ll be interesting to watch things unfold.

True investors don’t limit themselves when it comes to opportunity. They know how to read the markets, or hire those that do (you know…“upscale waiter’s & waitresses who shuttle people around” as one bone-head put it). I still like Miami & Orlando. Nashville’s been hot. Pheonix still interest me. Maui’s desirable for a lot of reasons. And the Seattle region’s still probably the most underpriced area on the West Coast.

It’s gonna be all about interest rates…interest rates…interest rates after the first of the year. And NOBODY can predict–with accuracy–which way they’re gonna go in the longer scheme of things.

-Infowell

It’s jobs, jobs, jobs…people will do anything and pay any intererest rate as long as they can own the American dream, and get a tax right off.

If they have work, they will pay anything of their monthly income to buy and keep a house. Remeber a few years back interest rates were at12% and sales were happening.

Keep looking at those employment numbers in your city, and when unemployment starts moving up, then we will have a problem. It’s just that simple.

Las Vegas beat me to the punch on this one. I read the replies but didn’t have a chance to respond.

Earlier in the thread when we were talking about the ‘what if’s’ of interest rates I stated that if the interest rates go into the double digits then I’d LOVE it. Because interest rates rising mean inflationary pressures. The #1 cause for inflation is wage growth. Remember the late 90’s when the economy was terrific? The average 30 year mortgage rate was 7.09 percent on February 1998 which had risen steadily since it’s 4 year low of 6.83 percent in February 1994 (statistics courtesy of Bankrate.com). People weren’t complaining about how impossible it was to buy homes because wage growth was strong, investments were doing well, and overall the late 90’s are considered a period of excellent economic strength. Were home prices falling in 1998? Was there a real estate bubble bursting at that time? NO.

Las Vegas has it perfectly. Watch the job market. But in addition to job creation statistics, watch wage growth. One of leading indicators of interest rates are the wage growth numbers. The wage growth numbers are starting to pick up and this is a GOOD thing because people upgrade housing during that time.

Here’s the consumer business cycle in a nutshell when it comes to housing (as with any generalization it’s over simplified, but the concept is clear). Economy going well, people upgrade to larger / nicer homes. Economy going poor, they refinance their loans and tend to upgrade less but reduce their monthly payments. Fewer sales of homes.

Everyone here is worried about interest rate increases but I would encourage you to look at home sales in times of good economic growth with higher rates and you’ll find that home sales were still strong in those areas.

I agree that jobs & wage growth are important economic indicators, however;

“Remember a few years back interest rates were at 12% and sales were happening.”

Actually, you’d have to go back quite a few years when interest rates were @ 12%. As an appraiser for the past 15 years…I’ve had to report interest rates & comment on their effects in the marketplace. I can’t remember last time rates were 12% (perhaps in the early 90’s?).

“Remember the late 90’s when the economy was terrific?..People weren’t complaining about how impossible it was to buy homes because wage growth was strong, investments were doing well, and overall the late 90’s are considered a period of excellent economic strength.”

Depending on where one was in the country…there were cycles taking place even in the late ‘90’s’. You cite ‘98’, but ‘99’ was a very slow time for many appraisers.

As an appraiser you tend to see cycles unfolding before most people (even those in other…similar professions). Stands to reason…you have access to data most people never see, and you know how to interpret the data (it’s your job).

‘99’ saw rising interest rates & the refi market began to slow down. Following came a slow down in real estate sales, and by 2000 & 2001–foreclosures were beginning increase. 2002-2003 saw a record number of foreclosures.

Of course it didn’t help matters watching the Presidents men telling everyone on television…“outsourcing is good for America.” Funny…didn’t FEEL good.

I didn’t mean to imply that interest rates were the only economic indicator but, there’s a major difference between now & the late ‘90’s’…that being the affordability issue. Lets face it…wages haven’t kept pace anywhere near housing prices. Many economist are now warning of increasing foreclosures should interest rates continue to climb.

This is traditionally the slow time of year for real estate sales…we’ll know more by February-March, but many markets appear to have peaked, and that’s due to increased interest rates. Job wages, afterall, have been rising…yet we still a marked slow down in sales. I think it’s an affordability issue.

-Infowell

Infowell,

You cite the increase of forclosures in 2000-2001 and a record number of forclosures in 2002-2003. That is exactly my point.

Check the interest rates during those times. They were FALLING. Falling interest rates are when there are vastly more foreclosures than rising rates. Rising rates mean wage growth, stronger economic outlook, and stronger consumer confidence. People are less likely to be foreclosed upon when their income is steady or increasing. They are much more likely to be foreclosed upon during periods of unemployment.

The periods of time you reference in your reply also mirrior my point. Rising interest rates, slower refinances. This becomes slower for appraisers due to fewer transactions. (Coincidentally, 2003 - the time you point out to record foreclosures was the busiest time in history for appraisers, so I’m not sure if ‘slower for appraisers’ helps back up your hypothesis).

I also didn’t mention anything about 12% interest rates on homes (the previous poster did).

The affordability issue you mention is a concern but, wages also don’t have to keep pace with housing prices. There are many aspects to affordability that aren’t the drivers in price. Has affordability kept people from going to college? Prices are increasing much more rapidly than wages, but yet 2005 has more college students than 2004. There are underlying factors that occur that affect EVERYTHING. My point is that higher rates have not historically caused housing bubbles, traditionally when rates are high, sales are still high.

As an appraiser you tend to see cycles unfolding before most people (even those in other…similar professions). Stands to reason…you have access to data most people never see, and you know how to interpret the data (it’s your job).

I’m not sure if you’re implying that appraisers have some sort of economic insight that other’s do not, but if you are, let me politely disagree. Appraisers appraise homes based on PAST sales, not future sales. The sales comparison approach requires as much. Also, and you know this is true, appraisers back into most of their values for purchases. I have a good deal of respect for appraisers, but they don’t predict trends they report on what has already happened, and THAT data is readily available to anyone interested in the area.

DFW-

I understand 12% interest rates were posted by another poster.

I’m coming from a slightly different perspective. It’s been my job to gather data, digest the data, and come to a conclusion.

Here’s some examples that might shed some light;

[i][b]“You cite the increase of forclosures in 2000-2001 and a record number of forclosures in 2002-2003. That is exactly my point.”

“Check the interest rates during those times. They were FALLING. Falling interest rates are when there are vastly more foreclosures than rising rates.” [/b][/i]

People don’t lose their homes all of a sudden…it takes time. While rates may have been falling at the time…it’s what was taking place in the previous months & years that created a situation in which these folks could no longer hang on. 2002-2003 was a different scenario…that’s when millions of American jobs were lost overseas (there you’d be right…it was unemployment).

“Rising rates mean wage growth, stronger economic outlook, and stronger consumer confidence. People are less likely to be foreclosed upon when their income is steady or increasing. They are much more likely to be foreclosed upon during periods of unemployment.”

I don’t view this as a zero sum issue (interest rates vs. jobs…one or the other). They’re both often interdependent.

Your employment example isn’t incorrect, however, there are many people who lose their homes because, they overextended themselves & bought more home than they could reasonably afford. A slight uptick in rates & they’re no longer able to pay the mortgage…even if they’re employed. This becomes the norm as affordability becomes more of an issue. Many others overextend themselves via refinance.

While I don’t tend to attempt to predict the long term future…I think we’ll have a better understanding of what’s taking place by mid Feb-March. Job & wage growth is increasing (according to the latest stats)…so if the markets are still stagnant by mid Feb-March…it’ll be due to slightly higher rates & thus affordability.

Time will tell, but sooner, or later…affordability will become a major issue. Again…wages haven’t even come close to keeping pace with home appreciation in some of the countries hottest markets.

“Coincidentally, 2003 - the time you point out to record foreclosures was the busiest time in history for appraisers,”

Highly inaccurate. The busiest time in history for appraisers (relatively speaking) was the early ‘90’s’…right after FIRREA came into effect.

Appraisers are going the way of PMI companies. They’re only needed for the riskiest loans. They’ve been largely replaced by AVM’s which couldn’t be used in the early ‘90’s’ to the extent they are now. Additionally, the DeMinimus was significantly lower (again…relatively speaking), and an appraisal was required more often for Federally related transactions.

“I’m not sure if you’re implying that appraisers have some sort of economic insight that other’s do not, but if you are, let me politely disagree. Appraisers appraise homes based on PAST sales, not future sales. The sales comparison approach requires as much. I have a good deal of respect for appraisers, but they don’t predict trends they report on what has already happened, and THAT data is readily available to anyone interested in the area.”

You don’t have a full understanding of the appraisal process (no offense). (Good) Appraisers perform a TREND, and HB&U analysis on every assignment. And what about the Cost & Income Approaches to value. You don’t think I’d use outdated rental information & cost manuals do you? I work with a number of builders…they’re great sources of up to date information.

While it may appear that an appraisers job is akin to driving down the freeway while looking in the rearview mirror…a good appraiser will analyze active, STI, pending, cancelled, and expired listings, and perhaps incorporate one of those into the analysis as additional support (especially active, STI, and pending listings).

Moreover, appraisers must gather and analyze data regarding; growth rate, property values (trends–direction), demand/supply, marketing times, and interest rates.

Appraisers are required to research and analyze the "factors that affect the marketability of the properties in the neighborhood (proximity to employment and amenities, employment stability, appeal to market, etc.). And they’re required to give their opinion whether current trends are expected to continue in the short term, or if economic indicators are leading them to believe otherwise.

“Also, and you know this is true, appraisers back into most of their values for purchases.”

Perhaps we run in different circles. I left appraising for mortgage loan purposes behind a looooong time ago. My clients wanted, indeed needed my opinion. If someone wants to be my client currently…they’ve got to want MY unbiased opinion. If anyone thinks their going to give me an assignment with my opinion on it…their order will go directly into the trash can. I don’t need em.

The last few years I appraised I performed primarily appraisals for REO companies that had large government contracts. They wanted “as is” value, “as repaired” value, items in need of repair & cost estimates, and my opinion as to whether they should list “as is” or “as repaired.” I was rated against my competitors statistically, and scored highest in the states largest three counties.

Finally, as an investor, I like being underestimated. I really enjoy people thinking they know what it is I do, or my understanding of the markets. As an investor I’m simply required to cite my qualifications (Broker/Appraiser)…I can’t MAKE somebody think I may actually know more than them.

-Infowell

Excellent points regarding appraisals Infowell. You mention several areas where an appraiser is indeed viewing the market. However, you still mention that they analyze factors that affect marketability, growth rates, marketing times etc. These are all bits of information that are used to establish value today and to understand why value has increased due to higher demand, recent trends or other economic indicators that would affect marketability, neighborhood statistics and basically every other box on the URLA.

You mention the cost approach (only needed on new construction) and the income approach (not used on SFR’s for establishg value typically or non-income producing properties). These are valueable tools (particularly in commercial investment) however this discussion is about the housing bubble and what we talking about is the value of SFR’s. The sales approach is not a forward looking tool for measuring value of a house, it’s a ‘point in time’ value based on the current market.

We obviously do run in different circles because the appraisers that I come accross daily do a barely acceptable job of supporting their own opinion of value by backing into values, using only the ‘best’ comps in terms of sales price, trying to establish similar values to dissimilar neighborhoods or communities, giving garbage high dollar adjustments for quality of construction to again back into a predetermined value, etc.

I think you’d have to admit that the vast majority of valuations are for residential mortgage loans, so your situation is not the norm. You’ve specialized and are now more exception than rule. AVM’s are even more about reflecting the past than predicting the future which is why many lenders have gone the way of that (but, AVM’s are notoriously bad at even analyzing the past because they can’t know if a house was updated or if the condition of the home is in disrepair so even lenders note how bad these are to use)

The major difference between accounting and finance is what you do with the data. Finance is designed to predict, accounting is designed to tell you where you’re at today. Neither is necessarily better or worse than the other they are just different. Appraisers are to what we do the accountants, where as the investors are the financiers. We are trying to analyze and predict, but the appraisers are gathering data and stating what a house is worth today.

Here’s an excercise - try to get an appraiser to commit to an ‘opinion of value’ for a house for 1 year from now. They won’t.

As for the subject of foreclosures and interest rates. The data you are using does not support your theory that a period of time that has higher interest rates sustains more forclosures than a period of time with lower rates. You then go on to say that the forclosures are a product of what was taken place months and years before. Yet you then say that raising rates now, would cause forclosures in the near term. The climate that creates lower rates creates unemployment and that creates inability to sustain your lifestyle. You’re right it’s not a zero sum gain equation, but insofar as that’s concerened, why are you viewing raising rates in a vacuum? I’m saying that they won’t necessarily be overextended if rates have a slight uptick because typically rising rates mean rising wages. If you make more, you can pay more.

Here is an excercise.

Can someone provide data of a time when the local economy was strong, unemployment was low and house prices DECREASED?

Every example I’ve found has been due to a local economy struggling.