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Author Topic: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)  (Read 20525 times)

Offline sammydy

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Re: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2010, 07:20:17 am »
The GFCI receptacles provide protection whether they are grounded or not.  I'm sure it would be better to have them grounded if at all possible, but they don't absolutely require it to work either.  The code you posted just says protected by GFCI, probably applies to either GFCI breakers or GFCI receptacles; though ask section 8 first just to be sure.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 07:39:28 am by sammydy »

Offline davewindsor

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Re: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 07:40:11 pm »
If your basement ceiling is open, another option you might want to look into is running that green single strand 14 gauge conduit ground wire from the box to the nearst cold water pipe.  The clamps are like a buck and the conduit wire shouldn't run that much.

That would be a code violation and can create other grounding issues.

Who told you that?!

I'm not sure what area of the country you are from, but it my area it's right in the code book that you can do it.  I didn't invent this.  That's were I got the knowledge from.  And I suspect if you call the electrical safety office in your area and pull a permit it will pass.

You take the green ground conduit wire and slide it into the electrical box and add a ground screw to the box and connect it to the electrical box screw and the plug ground screw of a regular ground plug.  The other end you attach to an approved cold water ground pipe clamp.  I don't know where you get the grounding issues unless your cold water pipe is separated by plastic pipe, which is very rare in an older building.  Obviously, you'll know when you test it with the $5 ground plug tester.

The problem with GFI plugs is half of them don't even fit inside the older electrical boxes in older buildings.  So, your only other options are the expensive GFI breakers if you have a breaker panel or running a ground wire to the nearest cold water pipe. 

Landlord and investor

Offline Estrogen Hostage

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Re: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 10:07:25 am »
I just don't see the point here.  I talked to the HUD inspector.  He said the argument is that it is "confusing" to the tenant to have a 3 prong outlet when it's not actually grounded.  I told him that we both know a tenant is going to either break off the ground prong of a 3 prong appliance or they would just get one of the 3 to 2 prong adapters and still plug into a 2 prong outlet if we just re-installed 2 prong outlets.  He agreed with me.  I'm going to suck it up and put ours in compliance.  I just think the argument is pretty weak and it's a way to make LL's spend a lot more money for no real gain.
I'm not an electrician, but every diagram I find for GFCI outlets show wiring for white/black/ground(green).  My problem is the lack of a ground wire so I don't see how just installing a bunch of GFCI outlets with only white & black wires gets me anywhere.


The point is that the metal case or frame is the grounded in most equipment. If a wire chafes or comes into contact with the metal it creates a short circuit and blows the fuse. By replacing the two wire  (ungrounded) outlets with three wire (groundeed), you are creating a situtation where if something happens to the appliance or device and the frame comes into contact with the hot wire it will cause the whole case to become hot and electrocute anyone that touches it. What you have been doing is not safe and needs to be corrected immediately.

Another thing that can happen is what's called a floating ground - where the motor induces a voltage in the frame when it runs. I rented a house years ago where the landlord had done what you had and my washing machine (which was in good operation order) would shock me with a pretty unpleasant zap if I touched a spot where the paint had flaked off.  This istuation is probably already happening with appliances without a ground. It's not too unsafe, but the first situation is. You need to fix all of them before someone gets killed.

Offline HPM

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Re: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2010, 03:14:33 pm »
Three
solutions.

1) If you are good at fishing wires run a green wire to each outlet, and back to the breaker box for each circuit.  (Do not run it to the nearest pipe-not a code compliant ground) (That would however fake out the tester, if thats all your looking to do)
Then properly ground your panel.

2) Buy 2 prong outlets.  Still available, more expensive.

3) Get GFCI Outlets

Also, In my area Section 8 required only one outlet per room (2 if there is no hard-wired lighting).  You could "fix" most of those outlets by just removing them.

If it were me, I'd gound the ones that are easy to ground, and remove the rest.

Offline davewindsor

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Re: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2010, 07:36:29 pm »
Name the rule in your area.  I challenge you.

The 2007-2010 Electrical Code Simplified of the Electrical Safety Code Book for my area says it can be grounded to the nearest grounded cold water pipe in the basement.  They even have a diagram of the cold water pipe running under the floor joist with the ground clamp attached to the pipe and the other end fished through the outlet box.  Rewiring an existing house--Replacing Old Plug Receptacles.  Subrules 26-700(7)(8)&(9 & Bulletin 26-5-6.  Page 126.  The book is right in front of me.  Do you want to make a $1,000 wager on it with the money held by the Mods that it says you can?



1) If you are good at fishing wires run a green wire to each outlet, and back to the breaker box for each circuit.  (Do not run it to the nearest pipe-not a code compliant ground) (That would however fake out the tester, if thats all your looking to do)
Then properly ground your panel.

Landlord and investor

Offline HPM

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Re: Electrical issue for Landlords accepting Section 8 (HUD)
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2010, 08:28:34 pm »
I stand corrected.

But for the Final ruling contact your local electrical inspector and ask.
Just because something is allowed by NEC doesn't mean it's allowed in all areas.
I guess I just assumed NEC didn't allow it because my electrical inspector told me I couldn't do it.

I also chuckled to myself at your dilemma, because the Section 8 inspector in my area used a tester with a broken off ground plug.
He said he never bothered to get a new one b/c most everything he looks at is two prong outlets.

 




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