More Gun Insanity

[propertymanager]

Would you agree with me that we need tighter control of WHO gets a gun?  That we need federal laws so some states can't just allow sales to any criminal or crazy person?  That we could at least start with tightening up ownership?

You obviously don't know anything at all about gun laws.  Try educating yourself a little before you make such ridiculous posts.  There are already federal laws that require a background check before buying guns.  That is true in EVERY STATE and includes buying guns from dealers at gun shows.  The only time that a person can buy a gun without a background check is when it is bought from another private individual (who is not a gun dealer).

Would you agree that we need a ban on cop-killer bullets and machine guns in the hands of common people?

Another ignorant comment!  Machine guns have been banned for decades and there is no such thing as a cop-killer bullet.

Would you agree that we need to stop the wholesale transfer of weapons to Mexico (that's where a lot of your stolen guns are going)?

There is no wholesale transfer of weapons to Mexico.  In fact, the vast majority of guns that are involved in gun violence in Mexico are coming from communist countries (like China).  That was just inaccurate propaganda put out by the anti-gun left (which you obviously believed without doing any independent research).

Would you agree that the Border Patrol and Firearm agencies and maybe FBI need more funding specifically to lessen ILLEGAL use of guns?

The socialists won't allow the Border Patrol to do their job, so that's certainly not an issue.  The problem isn't more funding, the problem is that our criminal justice system is badly broken (thanks to the left) and criminals aren't punished!

Would you agree that we are all at risk, and that 34,000 deaths is way out of line for a civilized first-world society?

34,000 gun deaths is certainly higher than needed in the US, BECAUSE THE LEFT WON'T ALLOW CRIMINALS TO BE PUNISHED.  YOU and your socialist friends ARE the problem Furnishedowner!  YOU HAVE CAUSED THIS PROBLEM, especially in the black community.  IT'S YOUR FAULT!

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"Would you agree that we are all at risk, and that 34,000 deaths is way out of line for a civilized first-world society?"

The fact that you CONTINUE to use 34,000 gun deaths, without recognizing that 55% (18,700) of the deaths were from suicide, and all the things you listed (i.e. - taxes, monitoring, etc.) would likely not CHANGE the number suicide deaths is telling...

Out of the 15,300 gun deaths, which encompass ALL the remaining gun deaths - accidental, homocide, law enforcement, etc...  how many of these were from LAW ABIDING gun owners (i.e. - registered guns and law enforcement)? 

A minute percentage, the rest of the gun deaths are from CRIMINAL use...  so the fact that you want to INCREASE BARRIERS to law abiding gun owners, and TAX them more, does NOTHING to change the underlying CAUSES for gun deaths...  CRIMINALS will just a black-market, non-traceable gun...  don't you understand this?

Something to consider... The fact that a gun is regsitered only helps in solving the crime committed by the gun... THIS IS AFTER THE FACT... whether or not it was registered would not have changed the death.  So how does TAXING and MONITORING law abiding gun owners change this???

[propertymanager]

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR that Furnishedowner knows absolutely nothing about guns or gun issues (other than what she's read on some anti-gun socialist website).  She doesn't have any FACTS to back up her wild claims and won't answer ANY of the questions that were put to her by people on REICLUB.  CLUELESS! 

[PositiveOutlook]

Propertymanager,

"She doesn't have any FACTS to back up her wild claims and won't answer ANY of the questions that were put to her by people on REICLUB."

Unforunately, no matter how much you challenge her, my guess is she doesn't ANSWER the questions because it means she will have to come to terms what her HEAD tells her, but is in conflict with what "feels good"...

The majority of her posts on the threads are based on "feelings" not facts... whether it is guns, abortion, government run healthcare, global warming, etc...  Something to think about...  Never mind answering the questions posed to her, which is uncommon, when she does, the majority of the time, her ANSWER is the goverment...  on every single one of them....       which is WHY she is so open to being manipulated...  easier to go along with the crowd who is also being manipulated than to think for yourself and hold them accountable...

I'm sure Furnishedowner is a nice person, but IMHO, she is one the people who don't take the responsibility of being SELF-GOVERNED seriously... the MORE she puts into the hands of the government, the LESS free she is... she just doesn't see it... 

[furnishedowner]

I just called Bubba's Discount Gun Shop to get answers straight from the horse's mouth, since lately I am so gullible and easily manipulated.

Bubba said that there is a background check ONLY if I buy a gun from a licensed dealer like him.  If I DON'T WANT the background check I can buy a gun from a private party.  Or I can go to a gun show and buy it from a private party.

So any drug dealer with a satchel full of cash can do the same.
You think that is all right?

Checking my state's gun website I read:  Permit required? No. Registration required? No.  License required? No.  There is only a permit required to CARRY a gun.  Not to buy.

Way, way too easy for guns to get into the wrong hands.  That's what I've been saying all along.

I don't want to get RID of guns, that's not remotely possible.  I just want non-criminal, sane, licensed, registered, trained, and permitted gun owners to have guns.  Like you all.  And then you shouldn't be allowed to sell them either.  Let's let all sales go back through gun dealers.  Then everyone will get a background check.  Let's have licenses, registrations and permits.  Whatever it takes to slow the slaughter.

85,540 shootings so far this year.
177 people shot so far today.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"Bubba said that there is a background check ONLY if I buy a gun from a licensed dealer like him.  If I DON'T WANT the background check I can buy a gun from a private party.  Or I can go to a gun show and buy it from a private party."

Think this through from the POV of a criminal...  Now, also remember that even if EVERYTHING you wanted happened... the CRIMINAL also has the black market, and the MORE you do what YOU want to do, the LARGER the demand, the LARGER the market...

"So any drug dealer with a satchel full of cash can do the same. you think that is all right?"

A drug dealer does not go the legal route to get a gun because of the NCIS...  so your point is mute...   

"I don't want to get RID of guns, that's not remotely possible.  I just want non-criminal, sane, licensed, registered, trained, and permitted gun owners to have guns.  Like you all.  And then you shouldn't be allowed to sell them either.  Let's let all sales go back through gun dealers.  Then everyone will get a background check.  Let's have licenses, registrations and permits.  Whatever it takes to slow the slaughter."

Furnishedowner, why do you think a CRIMINAL will adhere to licenses, registrations, permits or background checks let alone buy a traceable gun?  They won't... so the only ones who PAY THE PRICE for your plan (TAXES, "monitoring", fees, registration, background checks, permits, licenses) are the LAW ABIDING owners...  don't you see this???

"85,540 shootings so far this year.
177 people shot so far today."

So now, we've gone from gun deaths to gun shootings?...   

[propertymanager]

Bubba said that there is a background check ONLY if I buy a gun from a licensed dealer like him.  If I DON'T WANT the background check I can buy a gun from a private party.  Or I can go to a gun show and buy it from a private party.

EXACTLY as I told you!

So any drug dealer with a satchel full of cash can do the same.
You think that is all right?

I deal with drug dealers EVERY DAY (fight drug dealers every day might be more accurate).  I can spot a scumbag drug dealer from a mile away and smell them two miles away!  I have gone to a lot of gun shows and I can tell you for a fact that I have never seen anyone at a gun show that looked like a drug dealer.  Drug dealers don't buy guns from gun dealers or at gun shows.  Gun dealers steal guns or buy them on the street from thieves.

Checking my state's gun website I read:  Permit required? No. Registration required? No.  License required? No.  There is only a permit required to CARRY a gun.  Not to buy.

I know that this is going to come as a shock, but we have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to own and carry guns.  Maybe you'd like to have to pay for a license, obtain a permit, or be registered to express your opinion under the 1st amendment.  Or maybe you'd like to have to pay for a license, obtain a permit, or be registered to have a right to remain silent (under the 5th amendment).  Which other rights are you willing to give up or have manipulated?

[furnishedowner]

I'm willing to give up the right to buy a gun privately without a background check.  I'm willing to pay a permit fee, license fee, registration fee on my gun.  I'm willing to give up the right to re-sell that gun privately.  I want to ensure that the new owner of my gun gets a background check done.  I'll sell it to a gun dealer who will do the mandatory check.

So when it's stolen and used in a crime it can be traced to whomever is the registered owner.  Who didn't take good enough care of the gun but allowed it to be stolen.

Someone is buying or stealing guns and then selling or trading them to drug dealers, just like you said.  Right now you can sell your personal gun without a background check on your buyer.  Let's stop that loophole.

And let's start buy-backs of guns in crime-ridden areas.  Cash talks.  This has worked really well in a number of places.  People will be selling their guns to make rent money.  This could only help you, Propertymanager.  If ALL guns become traceable, then there will be some accountability from those who now flout the gun laws.  Remember the crook Al Capone?  He was put away for violating INCOME TAX LAWS.  We could clean up some streets by enforcing gun registration laws.

Look, it's plain insanity that things go on the same way.  It's not working.  We are not safe from random gun violence and crazy shooters.  It's the guns in the wrong hands I am talking about.

Insanity is continuing to do what isn't working.  You can count on seeing tightening of gun laws.  Sensible gun owners will want to help get guns off the street.

Furnishedowner

[justin0419]

Let me preface this by saying my hand gun is completely legally registered.  I surrendered my home state driver's license so I could get a local license in order to get my concealed carry permit.
Some things just can't be legislated away. 
Are you saying if someone breaks into my house, finds my gun, and steals it - that I'm responsible?  I lock my house and hide my gun inside.  I'm not allowing a criminal to steal it. 
I can also see that gun buyback program heading south too.  So the gov't will pay criminals who STOLE the guns.  So according to Pavlov's dog, now we just trained criminals to steal more guns because they've got a guaranteed buyer...the US gov't.  Awesome.
I agree Furnished...we're going to see tightening of gun laws and probably much more.  After I'm fined for not having health insurance, I probably won't be able to afford ammo for my gun anyway.
God Bless America...oh I probably can't say that now either.

[propertymanager]

I'm willing to give up the right to buy a gun privately without a background check.  I'm willing to pay a permit fee, license fee, registration fee on my gun.  I'm willing to give up the right to re-sell that gun privately.

Do you own a handgun?  I didn't think so.  Have you ever shot a gun of any kind?

So when it's stolen and used in a crime it can be traced to whomever is the registered owner.  Who didn't take good enough care of the gun but allowed it to be stolen.

I had a car stolen once - it was locked and in the lighted parking lot right outside my apartment window (when I was in college).  Does that mean that I didn't take good enough care of my car?  RIDICULOUS!

The concealed carry law here in Ohio forces me to leave my handgun in my truck when I go into certain buildings, such as government buildings, police stations, restaurants that serve alcohol (soon to be changed), etc.  If someone steals the gun from my car (after I'm forced by law to leave it there), does that mean that I didn't take good enough care of it?  If I told you that it was locked in a gun safe in my truck and cabled to the seat frame, would that make a difference?  I hate to break it to you, but things can be stolen even when you do EVERYTHING right.  This is EXACTLY what I've been talking about.  When some scumbag criminal steals a gun, you want to blame the victim instead of the CRIMINAL!  What is it about you socialists that make you want to blame law abiding citizens and coddle criminals?

You can count on seeing tightening of gun laws.

Quite the contrary, gun laws have been dramatically improving, with the latest victory being the Supreme Court's ruling that the Second Amendment was an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT, and their overturning of the decades old gun ban in Washington D.C.    Honest citizens are tired of being victims and are buying and carrying handguns in RECORD NUMBERS!  Maybe you should buy a gun Furnishedowner.  Stop being a victim and start taking responsible for your own safety!

Personally, I'd like to see the criminals off the streets (or better yet OFF THE PLANET)!   Guns don't kill people - PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!


 

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"I'm willing to give up the right to buy a gun privately without a background check.  I'm willing to pay a permit fee, license fee, registration fee on my gun.  I'm willing to give up the right to re-sell that gun privately.  I want to ensure that the new owner of my gun gets a background check done.  I'll sell it to a gun dealer who will do the mandatory check."

Here's where I disagree with you strongly.... Just because YOU are OK and are willing to give up your rights and freedoms does NOT make it OK for the rest of us...  The difference is, you want to use the government to FORCE others to give up theirs... 

"So when it's stolen and used in a crime it can be traced to whomever is the registered owner.  Who didn't take good enough care of the gun but allowed it to be stolen."

Two things... 1) how does someone ALLOW a gun to be stolen?...  and 2) don't you know that if someone buys a gun off the black market, it is made untraceable?  So how will a registered gun, which has been doctored going to be traced to whomever the registered owner is?

"Someone is buying or stealing guns and then selling or trading them to drug dealers, just like you said.  Right now you can sell your personal gun without a background check on your buyer.  Let's stop that loophole."

Even if you were SUCCESSFUL in getting law abiding citizens to do this...  you STILL can't erase the black market for this (the LARGEST loophole in your plan), which is WHY Englands gun deaths DOUBLED after they got rid of guns...  guns used in other crimes are CHEAPER over there, BTW.... 

"And let's start buy-backs of guns in crime-ridden areas.  Cash talks.  This has worked really well in a number of places.  People will be selling their guns to make rent money.  This could only help you, Propertymanager.  If ALL guns become traceable, then there will be some accountability from those who now flout the gun laws.  Remember the crook Al Capone?  He was put away for violating INCOME TAX LAWS.  We could clean up some streets by enforcing gun registration laws."

If they would just enforce EXISTING laws, things would be even better...  gun buy-back programs do not have any real effect because there are many ways to get guns... 

"Look, it's plain insanity that things go on the same way.  It's not working.  We are not safe from random gun violence and crazy shooters.  It's the guns in the wrong hands I am talking about."

How is doing what you are suggesting going to remove guns from criminals?

"Insanity is continuing to do what isn't working.  You can count on seeing tightening of gun laws.  Sensible gun owners will want to help get guns off the street."

If you haven't got it yet... the effort should be on the CRIMINALS and the ILLEGAL guns, NOT the law-abiding gun owners...

YOU want to focus on law-abiding gun owners, and burden them with addtitional regulations, TAXES, permits, fees, licenses, etc... 

WE want the criminal to be burdened...  and our rights left alone...

[furnishedowner]

OK, I agree that the stolen gun responsibility idea wasn't well thought out. But here one of my neighbors had his house broken into and his 7 guns stolen.  They weren't in any kind of locked cabinet.  So I would say that made it too easy;  guns should be DIFFICULT to steal. 

The only gun I have ever fired was an Uzzi machine gun.  I went on a ride-along patrol once with the Israeli Army in the Negev Desert, a Druze unit.  That was some time ago.

What are your ideas for lessening gun crime?  Other than:  1. Issuing more guns to everybody.  2. Blaming gun crime on liberals.  3.  ?

Furnishedowner 

[propertymanager]

OK, I agree that the stolen gun responsibility idea wasn't well thought out. But here one of my neighbors had his house broken into and his 7 guns stolen.  They weren't in any kind of locked cabinet.  So I would say that made it too easy;  guns should be DIFFICULT to steal.

There you go again - you're blaming YOUR law abiding neighbor INSTEAD OF THE CRIMINAL!  What is wrong with you?  Can't you understand that the blame for crime lies solely with the criminal?  If you were really against gun violence then maybe you should be willing to severly punish the scumbag that broke into your neighbor's house and stole the guns.  How about life in prison without parole?  You claim it's a serious problem - are you willing to exact a serious punishment?  What if the thief is a muslim, black, European?  Would you still be willing to punish them or should be just give them a group hug?

What are your ideas for lessening gun crime?

Get serious about prosecuting and punishing the CRIMINALS!  This isn't brain surgery.  It should be obvious, even to you liberals, that if you want to stop crime you've got to DEAL WITH THE CRIMINALS!  Taxing, harrassing, registering, or licensing law abiding citizens will have NO EFFECT ON WHAT THE CRIMINALS DO (except to embolden them and INCREASE VIOLENT CRIME)!

That's the problem - you socialists aren't willing to hold people responsible for their actions.  Whether it's a muslim terrorist (like the Fort Hood shooter); a coddled child molestor in Vermont; or the black gang banger in the hood - you liberals want to make excuses for the scumbags instead of severly punishing them!  The only people you ARE willing to blame are law abiding citizens!  Why is that?

[tatertot]

Here's a law that will reduce gun crime. Instead of the public service announcement being "use a gun, go to jail" change the law to "use a gun, get the death penalty within 60 days".

Not that it would slow down the hardened criminals and drugs addicts, but you have to say this about the death penalty: it cuts down the number of repeat offenders.

FO, it's already against the law to steal a gun. It's already against the law to smuggle in cheap unregistered weapons from places like Brazil and China.  It's already against the law to use a gun in the commission of a crime. It's already against the law to shoot another human being exccept in self defense or the defense of an inocent 3rd party.  Get those laws unforced and it would certainly reduce the gun crime problem.

Passing laws against persons who aren't breaking the law in any way, shape, or form does nothing to reduce crime. If you want to reduce crime, you have to go after the criminals.

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"OK, I agree that the stolen gun responsibility idea wasn't well thought out. But here one of my neighbors had his house broken into and his 7 guns stolen.  They weren't in any kind of locked cabinet.  So I would say that made it too easy;  guns should be DIFFICULT to steal."

We've already established that murderers can be just as lethal with a knife as a gun, as knife crime in England and Japan are going UP and getting more lethal... a murderer WILL find a way even if it is BARE HANDS...  so do you feel the same about all your neighbors kitchen knives?  Should they also be locked up?  The are certainly more accessible, and there's no question as to it's location... this goes for cars, as well...

I think the problem here is you are assigning blame and responsibility to an inanimate object, as opposed to the one USING IT.

To make this point crystal-clear... based on your logic... your neighbor should be held just as responsible for allowing his car to be stolen and used in a DUI or drive-by death, or their butcher knives in the kitchen be stolen and used in a stabbing...  How can you hold your neighbor responsible for the gun and not these???  If someone steals a knife from one of your furnished rentals to stab someone, or a chord from a lamp to strangle someone, or some cleaning supplies to poison someone or worse yet, you didn't do a BACKGROUND CHECK on one of your renters, and they murdered another of your renters, with any of these objects or even their own hands, under your logic, YOU ARE ACCOUTABLE for all of these things...

Why should YOU not have to perform a BACKGOUND CHECK on your renters?

According to the below FBI website on actual murders from 2004, KNIVES or cutting instruments were used on 14.1% of all the murders, or 1,866 deaths. Now, these stats DO NOT include - "deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder or assaults to murder, which are scored as aggravated assaults."  So we are talking about the actual murders..

Weapons used in Murders            2004
Total Murders                               14,121

Total firearms:                                  9,326
  - Handguns                                     7,265
  - Rifles                                               393
  - Shotguns                                         507
  - Other guns                                      117
  - Firearms, type not stated              1,044
Knives or cutting instruments            1,866
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.)    663
Personal weapons (hands, fists,
   feet, etc.)                                          933
Poison                                                   11
Explosives                                               1
Fire                                                      114
Narcotics                                                76
Drowning                                                15
Strangulation                                        155
Asphyxiation                                         105
Other weapons or weapons
  not stated                                           856


So total firearm murders were 9326...  in a population of 310,000,000, it is statistically insignificant... now, before the knee-jerk reaction of "I'm sure it's not insignificant to the families"... that's a given...  A THIRD of ALL the murders were by things OTHER than firearms...  so someone INTENT on murder WILL find a way...

My point is that England had about the SAME amount of deaths from Knives as the US and they are a fraction of our population, and this was AFTER they TOOK ALL THE GUNS from LAW-ABIDING gun owners.   So how does licensing, permits, TAXES, fees, etc of LAW-ABIDING gun owners who already PEACIBLY own over 200,000,000 guns do ANYTHING to REDUCE the ACTUAL DEATHS?


http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html
 

What is also very interesting about the stats of the murders, if you take the time to read it, you'll find that that just about HALF of the murders were committed by someone they KNEW...  So again, how does licensing, permits, TAXES, fees, of LAW-ABIDING gun owners address this?

If you can get PAST the "feelings" part of this, and look at the FACTS, it becomes much clearer that imposing all the burdens you want to impose on LAW-ABIDING gun owners as opposed to puttng the burden WHERE IT BELONGS, on the criminal, TOTALLY MISSES THE MARK...

If you don't get it past this point, I don't know what to say to you...