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Author Topic: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....  (Read 70685 times)

Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2009, 02:17:09 pm »
"We are not actually talking about healthcare, we are talking about health insurance. 

Up until recently, we were talking about healthcare, not health insurance...

"The question is who pays for the healthcare that we get.  The fact that the people that don’t have health insurance use emergency rooms is justification that we do need a public option."

Not if it costs us more money... which EVERY examination of this has shown that it does... Not to mention that people on Medicaid USE the emergency room, so they don't HAVE TO schedule an appointment with a private doctor who accepts Medicaid.  It is ABUSED everyday by the people WITH this insurance...  The less you pay for something, the MORE you use it... Simple FACT of life...

"The problem to solve is that everybody is not covered by insurance."

This problem is ALREADY solved... noone can be turned away for healthcare at the hospital... 

"The solution is to provide a safety net that no one will fall below."

The safety net is ALREADY there... again, they cannot turn you away for care...  On top of this, when you call to make arrangements to pay (assuming they would even do this), the hospital is REQUIRED to accept what you can pay...

"That is the socialized part of it.  Even you are for that.  So why don’t you want to say that."   &   "You just used the fact that people use socialized medicine to justify why we don’t need socialized medicine."

No, that is the SUBSIDIZED part... by going single-payer, or putting us on the path to single-payer, THAT is socialized healthcare... MEANING the GOVERNMENT makes the decisions...

Once you REMOVE the government as referee between the insurance company and you, THEY BECOME the problem and you have noone to referee...  Just ask the THOUSANDS of people who come to the USA for healthcare each year...  Does this not tell you anything???



Not to mention that this takes away the CHOICE of whether you want insurance or not... 



All this is saying is that there is no problem.  This again proves my point that conservative means status quo. 

I agree that until recently we were not just talking about health insurance.  They did a terrible job of defining the problem.  I have always said that we don’t have healthcare we have sick care.  If we want to talk about healthcare there is a lot more to talk about than who pays for what.
Real estate to Retire you
http://sphinxwealth.com/

Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2009, 02:38:13 pm »
So we agree, global warming is based on fear...   :beer

No Global warming is based on science.  The reaction to the problem to do nothing (status quo) is conservative.

No, Reagan DEMONSTRATED how GOVERNMNENT IS THE PROBLEM...  Regan cut taxes ACROSS the board, REVENUES to the government DRAMATICALLY INCREASED... but the GOVERNMENT SPENT IT...  Instead of paying down our debt with it... THEY found ways, BOTH PARTIES, to WASTE it... this continues to this day...  which is WHY an ever-expanding government is the problem... 

What reagan did is like asking your boss for a reduction in your wage of $1.00 and then taking out credit card offers of $1000/month and cashing them in.  You can then say your income went up by $1000/month because you took a $1.00 pay cut.  The debt trippled under Reagan.



No, I believe what I believe, BECAUSE I read history, and we are watching happen to our country EXACTLY what our FOUNDING FATHERS WARNED against... simple as that...

You can't drive down the street looking in the rear view mirror.  You use the past to help you navigate where you go in the future, but you can’t be scared.  You must move forward.

Real estate to Retire you
http://sphinxwealth.com/

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2009, 02:40:41 pm »
Bluemoon06,

"All this is saying is that there is no problem.  This again proves my point that conservative means status quo.  "

If you are going to argue that the above is "status quo" making it "conservative", by your flawed limited definition of conservative political philosphy, you are not basing what you are arguing on ANY basis...  you DO realize this, right?

"I agree that until recently we were not just talking about health insurance."

Yes, so the argument FOR it is made additionally false... as is the mythical cost "savings" and "revenue-neutral" position... how many more things needs to be made false, before we see that government is NOT the answer, but the referee of the solution... If government is the answer, the referee is removed from the game...

"They did a terrible job of defining the problem."

Even MORE of a reason to trust them with it...  :rolleyes   Gives me the warm willies...

"I have always said that we don’t have healthcare we have sick care."

No, preventative care and palative care are part of the equation...  but you should realize that 5% of the population consumes approximately 50% of the care, and that is those 65 and older...

"If we want to talk about healthcare there is a lot more to talk about than who pays for what."

Who pays for what is the basis of it...  without it, it doesn't really matter now, does it?!...

Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2009, 02:44:54 pm »
"What we had were panhandlers.  When you talked to them they were people down on their luck and people that were just not that smart but they were all there."

So, it is your assertion that all homeless prior to Reagan were "all there" and after, not so much...

"The ones now to the man are mentally ill."

So now all homeless people are mentally ill to the man?  If this is your view, then you don't have much interaction with the homeless...

"These are a different type of person on the street.  Before Reagan they were picked up and taken care of in mental institutions."

You obvioiusly didn't read the act or about the ACLU... one of the reasons FOR this act, was that the people you said Pre-Reagan were not mentally ill, were being picked up and institutionalized against their will...

"Now they litter the street.  Whenever you see them thank Ronald Wilson Reagan"

This is BOGUS...



Yes all this is true.  The really I like you is that you, unlike most conservatives, seem to be intellectually curious.  As you can tell I always talk to the bums.  I don’t always give them money but when they come to my window I always talk to them about their story.  I find that they went from trying to get by in the 1970’s to being just plain bonkers today.
Real estate to Retire you
http://sphinxwealth.com/

Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2009, 02:51:25 pm »
If you are going to argue that the above is "status quo" making it "conservative", by your flawed limited definition of conservative political philosphy, you are not basing what you are arguing on ANY basis...  you DO realize this, right?

Maybe I am missing something here.  What does conservative mean if it does not mean status quo?  Give me the conservative path forward (oxymoron)

No, preventative care and palative care are part of the equation...



I agree it should be but it is not.
Real estate to Retire you
http://sphinxwealth.com/

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2009, 03:00:37 pm »
"No Global warming is based on science.  The reaction to the problem to do nothing (status quo) is conservative."

LOL... Based on science???  OK, what is proved and peer-studied proved?  See, there is a BIG distinction...

"What reagan did is like asking your boss for a reduction in your wage of $1.00 and then taking out credit card offers of $1000/month and cashing them in.  You can then say your income went up by $1000/month because you took a $1.00 pay cut.  The debt trippled under Reagan."

Reagan could NOT write a check AT ALL... CONGRESS writes the checks, and the President can do NOTHING without Congress... And it was a Dem majority at the time...  Doesn't matter though which party it was... point was, the GOVERNMENT doubled it's revenue WHILE cutting taxes ACROSS THE BOARD...  the fact that they could not MANAGE such an INCREASE in TAX REVENUE to even pay down the national debt SHOWS PROOF-POSITIVE they are NOT capable of handling 1/6th of the economy...  Graph from house.gov...  it is from date from the IRS and JEC...




As you can see, the INCREASED TAX REVENUE burden was covered mostly by the top 10% WHILE cutting taxes...

On top of all this... IT'S NOT THEIR MONEY!!!!  And the more you give it to them, the MORE THEY WANT...

Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2009, 03:26:14 pm »
You see this is the thing about being conservative or not.  There are programs and then there are principles.  Principles are values that never change.  They are the basic beliefs that were life put into you.  That could be from your parents or Sunday school or later in life.  They say a conservative is a liberal that has been mugged.  But they are your base.  Given that base the program is how we get from where we are going.  Programs change based on the situation.  For example the principle is that Blacks (or Negros or Afro Americans or whatever the term of the day was) should be treated fairly.  In the 1960 separate but equal was unarguably the correct program. Later that ended up being integration, followed by quotas and affirmative.  Now we have post racial.  You judge a person by their character.  Both liberals and conservatives belie the same principle.  The rub is in what program should be used.  Conservatives tend to be frozen for a solution.

With health insurance everybody has the principle that no one should be denied health care because he can’t get it paid for.  What we disagree on is the program to get that accomplished.  The problem with conservatives is that just like with global warming, they want to drag the anchor and do nothing and maybe it will work itself out. 

I can’t think of any principle in which the conservative program results in a solution to the principle discussed.
Real estate to Retire you
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Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2009, 03:30:05 pm »

Reagan could NOT write a check AT ALL... CONGRESS writes the checks, and the President can do NOTHING without Congress...

Using that logic, Reagan didn’t even do the tax cuts.  Congress did it all.  All Reagan did was just sat there and ate jelly beans while the congress engineered this whole thing…I guess doing nothing really does work.  If you sit there long enough the liberals will come along and fix your problem.
Real estate to Retire you
http://sphinxwealth.com/

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2009, 05:19:45 pm »
"Using that logic, Reagan didn’t even do the tax cuts.  Congress did it all. "

Actually no... Reagan set the agenda after trouncing Carter...  He had a true mandate with 91% of the electoral votes...  after the Rep's ADDING 34 seats and the Dems LOSING 35 seats, he had the will of the people on his side... contrast that with Obama's 68% of electoral votes, and Dem's taking control of Congress, and look how much Obama has squandered...  The will of the people is AGAINST him and the Dem's on this...

"With health insurance everybody has the principle that no one should be denied health care because he can’t get it paid for."

And herein lies one of the main philisophical disagreements... I do not believe people should be denied healthcare, but I also do not believe that means that they don't have to pay for it... If they are going to go their lifetime NOT paying for it, there should be trade-offs and inconveniences...  If not, why wouldn't EVERYBODY do it???  And THAT, makes our country WEAKER, not STRONGER... 

"What we disagree on is the program to get that accomplished. The problem with conservatives is that just like with global warming, they want to drag the anchor and do nothing and maybe it will work itself out."

The problem with liberals is that they look to the government BEFORE looking to themselves...  Just look at Global Warming (AGW)... it has NOT been proven, but liberals want to give government MORE MONEY in the form of INCREASED TAXES in Cap and Tax (trade), which will afffect EVERYTHING across the board for ALL income levels...  Common sense would dictate that we first PROVE that which we are trying to correct...  You just don't start giving your kid ANY type of medicine without first CONFIRMING what the problem is...

Look at healthcare... liberals are willing to give 1/6th of the economy over to the government, EVEN THOUGH, the government has PROVEN, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT, that they are incapable of handling this issue...  Before we would even THINK of considering doing that, how about they FIX what they've ALREADY screwed-up - Medicaid, Medicare, IHS (Indian Health Service), Social Security, etc...  NONE OF WHICH WORKED AS PLANNED and COST BILLIONS MORE than they projected... that kind of track record does NOT get you trusted with more of the people's money...  ESPECIALLY, when it gives you more POWER OVER the people...

This is EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers warned against...

That would be like your accountant getting your taxes wrong 5 years in a row, and costing you 10's of thousands of dollars, and then trusting him with your taxes again...  some people would call that person who would trust that accountant just plain stupid...





PositiveOutlook

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2009, 05:35:28 pm »
Bluemoon06,

I guess what it all boils down to is I believe in the individual and you believe in the government...  IMHO, the government CAUSES more problems than it solves, and the more you GIVE the government CONTROL over your life, the LESS free you are...

Offline Bluemoon06

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2009, 07:54:35 pm »
Bluemoon06,

I guess what it all boils down to is I believe in the individual and you believe in the government...  IMHO, the government CAUSES more problems than it solves, and the more you GIVE the government CONTROL over your life, the LESS free you are...

I agree.
Real estate to Retire you
http://sphinxwealth.com/

Offline Hoosier4life2005

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2009, 08:30:40 pm »
....... lol
Im Josh Azbell and im 20.  Add me on facebook :)  Im from Indiana.  I am going to be a Real Estate investor.

Offline furnishedowner

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2009, 11:28:50 pm »
BlueMoon,

You said all that I wanted to say, only much better!

You are right, those younger didn't see the sudden huge influx of mentally ill onto the streets under Reagan.  It was as if we were suddenly in a 3rd world country. I remember my medical co-workers being as angry as I was about it.  Him in his Ivory Tower! That empty suit!  The "let them eat cake" philosophy.  The "trickle down from the rich" philosophy.  I had him as governor and then as president, and then I had to endure the whole 30-day mourning period for this clueless president. (But I loved him as an actor, boy he WAS reassuring).

Listening to some of the current debates--the elderly are scared to death that their Medicaid will be taken away.  That shows the great need for that government program and the fact that it has worked so far.  The elderly rely on it. 

And people rely on Social Security.  Before there was Social Security it was common to see signs of starvation on the faces of the elderly poor.  Thank God those days are gone.  Look at how politically unpopular social security was.. all the same arguments as today against universal healthcare. Yet Social Security is now a pillar of our societal functioning.

Now it is time to get that social safety net for health care under those who don't have it.  The millions and millions who don't have it.  So the desperate Mom doesn't have to go to the ER at 3 AM for the baby's earache and fever.  So she can go to a clinic for preventative care much earlier.

So that people like my insurance-less daughter don't get hit up with a $1500 bill for 2 stitches in ER.  And my worker's sister $1800 to rule out that her child's bad bellyache wasn't appendicitis.  So that insurance company executives don't live like princes from the premiums paid by poor folk to treat their cancers.

Furnishedowner


Offline sellnbama

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2009, 08:41:03 am »
The "trickle down from the rich "theory!!??UMmmmm how many broke people are hiring??I see you thought reagan was arrogant,,and your beloved obama is'nt the definition of arrogance :rolleyes .....Really ??I've seen how out of touch with normal people all of washington is the last few months,,,,,and I guess you are right there with them. 

Offline Hoosier4life2005

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Re: Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2009, 09:52:11 am »
Exactly, thats what Liberals WANT.  They WANT people to rely on government for things, that gives them more power.... Do you not understand that..?  This is their fundamental agenda.  Give people so much things that they cant live without government.  I cant believe you think this is a GOOD thing.

Conservatives, like me and a few others, want people to rely on themselves.  Which will lead to more prosperity and more freedom.

And with Social Security.. its broken.  Do you not understand that?  Why do you prefer giving people money > bankrupting our country?



BlueMoon,

You said all that I wanted to say, only much better!

You are right, those younger didn't see the sudden huge influx of mentally ill onto the streets under Reagan.  It was as if we were suddenly in a 3rd world country. I remember my medical co-workers being as angry as I was about it.  Him in his Ivory Tower! That empty suit!  The "let them eat cake" philosophy.  The "trickle down from the rich" philosophy.  I had him as governor and then as president, and then I had to endure the whole 30-day mourning period for this clueless president. (But I loved him as an actor, boy he WAS reassuring).

Listening to some of the current debates--the elderly are scared to death that their Medicaid will be taken away.  That shows the great need for that government program and the fact that it has worked so far.  The elderly rely on it.  [/12]
And people rely on Social Security.  Before there was Social Security it was common to see signs of starvation on the faces of the elderly poor.  Thank God those days are gone.  Look at how politically unpopular social security was.. all the same arguments as today against universal healthcare. Yet Social Security is now a pillar of our societal functioning.

Now it is time to get that social safety net for health care under those who don't have it.  The millions and millions who don't have it.  So the desperate Mom doesn't have to go to the ER at 3 AM for the baby's earache and fever.  So she can go to a clinic for preventative care much earlier.

So that people like my insurance-less daughter don't get hit up with a $1500 bill for 2 stitches in ER.  And my worker's sister $1800 to rule out that her child's bad bellyache wasn't appendicitis.  So that insurance company executives don't live like princes from the premiums paid by poor folk to treat their cancers.

Furnishedowner


« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 11:19:04 am by Hoosier4life2005 »
Im Josh Azbell and im 20.  Add me on facebook :)  Im from Indiana.  I am going to be a Real Estate investor.

 




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