Ronald Reagan on Socialized Medicine....

[Hoosier4life2005]

CHARITY!!!

I have ethics.  I dont believe in theft.  Apparently you do though, because you want to take MY MONEY and GIVE it away. Since your a theif, and since your Christian, you better pray to Jesus Christ and ask him for forgiveness. 

Reply posts like the above are why I hardly bother with Random Ramblings anymore.

PosOutlook, when did you last pick up a psychotic from the street and deliver them to medical care?  I hope you had those 4-point leather restraints with you just in case. What a crazy criticism.

Hoosier, you need to get a dose of humility and charity if you go into the medical field. An ethics class would be of benefit too.  You are going to see a lot of poor needy people who need to be treated the same medically whether they have the money or not.

Personally I am really tired of the constant generalizing:  "Liberals are bad and wrong."  "Conservatives have a direct line to the truth".  This just shuts down any dialogue.

There is no way conservatives are 100% right. No way liberals are 100% right.  This is why there are debates, and  voting, and why the middle way may be what's selected. It's also why Obama was elected. It's also why there will hopefully finally be medical coverage of some kind for all.  It's what the people want.  No, not what you conservatives on this site want.

I am tired of the demonizing.  If I, your one liberal, perhaps, say "Today the sky here is blue."  Someone will be sure to say "It is only your liberal mindset that requires the government to pay to make the sky blue."  The discussion just degenerates into nonsense.

Furnishedowner

[Mdhaas]

CHARITY!!!

I have ethics.  I dont believe in theft.  Apparently you do though, because you want to take MY MONEY and GIVE it away. Since your a theif, and since your Christian, you better pray to Jesus Christ and ask him for forgiveness. 

So let me get this straight....If you do not have insurance coverage, for whatever reason, you should be denied quality healthcare?  Your suggesting some type of extermination of those less fortunate?

I am not sure when you cracked a Bible the last time, but, from my recollections it is all about charity....after all he died for YOU, didn't he?

[PositiveOutlook]

Mdhass,

"If you do not have insurance coverage, for whatever reason, you should be denied quality healthcare?  Your suggesting some type of extermination of those less fortunate?"

That's quite a leap... but lets follow that logic...  if that's the case, then ANYONE in the world should be able to come here and NOT be denied quality healthcare despite not having insurance coverage...  If not, WHY not?

If that's all that's involved, I'll drop my insurance because I don't want to pay for it (you said - "for whatever reason" and that's my reason), I'd rather put my money towards other things... so that means I still get quality healthcare, right?  If not, WHY not???

"I am not sure when you cracked a Bible the last time, but, from my recollections it is all about charity....after all he died for YOU, didn't he?"

So true, and without such a sacrifice, we would be forever lost... 

However, charity is charity, and theft is theft, just because you put the government between you doesn't change this.  You CANNOT FORCE people to pay more in taxes, by TAKING (not asking to give) from one to give to another to pay for others health insurance, while at the same time taking a cut for yourself to administer it, and still call it CHARITY, wouldn't you agree???

[Bluemoon06]

Government taking taxes and providing a service is not theft.  That is like saying taking my tax dollars to make sure the road in front of your house is repaired is theft.

Reagan was talking about a time in history that is passed.  He was right giving the thinking of that era.  Just like George Wallace was right for the time in which he lived.  Times change and we have to change with it.  When you talk about socialized medicine to scare people that is disingenuous.  They say that we should not have a government medical insurance program telling our doctors what they can do.  I say we have that now.  Aetna, Blue Cross, UnitedHealthcare all approve or deny services.  The only difference is who is making the decisions.

Reagan has a track record on healthcare.  His legacy was in metal health.  You guys are too young to remember this but before Reagan we didn’t have people at the intersections holding signs saying need money.  Those people are to the man mentally ill.  Reagan passed laws to close the asylums and now our quality of life is degraded.  If you follow his lead you would I guess maintain the status quo.  That would culminate in health care coverage that will plummet to the point that only those that can afford it will have it.  The sick will clog the streets like the mentally ill clog the streets today.  Following Reagan’s lead on healthcare is like following General Motor’s lead in maintaining the trolley car lines in Los Angeles.

But he really sounds soothing and smart doesn’t he?  Reagan’s main accomplishment was that he made us comfortable with our prejudices.

[Mdhaas]

Positive outluck,

That's quite a leap... but lets follow that logic...  if that's the case, then ANYONE in the world should be able to come here and NOT be denied quality healthcare despite not having insurance coverage...  If not, WHY not?

Isn't that what is happening now and WE pay for it anyhow?

However, charity is charity, and theft is theft, just because you put the government between you doesn't change this.  You CANNOT FORCE people to pay more in taxes, by TAKING (not asking to give) from one to give to another to pay for others health insurance, while at the same time taking a cut for yourself to administer it, and still call it CHARITY, wouldn't you agree???

I don't recall the Government calling it charity.  I thought that it was managed health care. Meaning that someone has to be payed to manage it.  I believe that it was you who called it charity.

[Hoosier4life2005]

Basically, theres a fundamental disagreement here.

Me and Positive believe that the Government should obey laws that we all have to abide by(Not being able to take money for those who earn it without their permission).  While mdhaas and bluemoon feel the Government has the right to take MY MONEY because they feel they can use that money for good reasons.

I find it a bit ridiculous that you guys dont think that is defined as "theft" but okay...

Using your guys' logic...Why cant I go take $20 out of my neighbors car right now, If I go and donate it to Red Cross (a good organization, that money will help people!)???  If the government can do it.. why cant I?  hmm?

[sellnbama]

Maybe they'll run healthcare as well as cash for clunkers  

[Mdhaas]

 

Why cant I go take $20 out of my neighbors car right now, If I go and donate it to Red Cross (a good organization, that money will help people!)???  If the government can do it.. why cant I?  hmm?

No one said that you couldn't (unless your neighbor did) and what a nice gesture that would be!   

[PositiveOutlook]

Bluemoon06,

"When you talk about socialized medicine to scare people that is disingenuous"

What would you call it then capitalism???  Free markets???  You need to educate yourself on the economic system of socialism...  the more you do, the more it will makes sense to you...  I don't personally just throw around such a charge willy-nilly...

"Those people are to the man mentally ill.  Reagan passed laws to close the asylums and now our quality of life is degraded. "

Bluemoon06, just as with Furnishedowner, you need to do a little reading on the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act and the ACLU...  your statement above is incorrect...  when you do read about it, it will make more sense to you...

"The sick will clog the streets like the mentally ill clog the streets today."

This is a specious and ignorant statement... the sick, BY LAW, cannot be turned away from an emerigency room, WHETHER THEY HAVE INSURANCE OR NOT....  it specifically states in the first paragraph below...

http://www.emtala.com/law/index.html

BTW, this law was passed in 1986, UNDER REAGAN...

To put it into perspective for you, my wife is a nurse at a womens  hospital, and EVERYDAY women come in for a pregnancy test, that they could get for a couple of bucks...  but instead, they get an ER bill (because they have to be evaluated) on top of the test, that they WILL NEVER PAY...  She says the worst ones are the ones on Medicaid, because they don't want to go to their regular doctor because they don't want to pay a $3, yes that's right THREE DOLLAR, co-pay!!! They are getting this insurance TRULY FOR FREE, and they don't have the respect to pay $3 co-pay and schedule an appt., but would rather force EVERYONE ELSE to pay and get to be seen right away at an ER...

"But he really sounds soothing and smart doesn’t he?  Reagan’s main accomplishment was that he made us comfortable with our prejudices."

Back that up...

[PositiveOutlook]

Mdhaas,

"Isn't that what is happening now and WE pay for it anyhow?"

If we are paying for it anyhow, and it has been shown it will cost MORE to implement what Obama wants to... guess we don't need it after all, yes?  As a matter of fact, that would be quite unproductive, wouldn't it?

"I don't recall the Government calling it charity.  I thought that it was managed health care. Meaning that someone has to be payed to manage it.  I believe that it was you who called it charity."

Actually I didn't call it charity...  Hoosier brought it up, then you referenced charity in the Bible.

The more that government TAKES in TAXATION from the citizenry, the LESS they have to help their fellow man... between the two, government is the most inefficient...

Why cant I go take $20 out of my neighbors car right now, If I go and donate it to Red Cross (a good organization, that money will help people!)???  If the government can do it.. why cant I?  hmm?

No one said that you couldn't (unless your neighbor did) and what a nice gesture that would be!   

Actually, the law says he can't...  the nice gesture would be if he GAVE $20, not had it TAKEN from him to give to another...

[PositiveOutlook]

Bluemoon06,

"You guys are too young to remember this BUT BEFORE REAGAN we didn’t have people at the intersections holding signs saying need money."

Are you seriously going to argue that panhandlers were not around before Reagan???  Puh-lease... 

[Bluemoon06]

Bluemoon06,

This is a specious and ignorant statement... the sick, BY LAW, cannot be turned away from an emerigency room, WHETHER THEY HAVE INSURANCE OR NOT....  it specifically states in the first paragraph below...

This is exactly what I mean when I say it is important to know why things work.  In this case it is important to know why you believe what you believe.  You just used the fact that people use socialized medicine to justify why we don’t need socialized medicine.  That is evidence that you don’t really know why you believe what you believe but that is why I am here.  I will help you with that.

We are not actually talking about healthcare, we are talking about health insurance.  The question is who pays for the healthcare that we get.  The fact that the people that don’t have health insurance use emergency rooms is justification that we do need a public option.  The problem to solve is that everybody is not covered by insurance.  The solution is to provide a safety net that no one will fall below.  That is the socialized part of it.  Even you are for that.  So why don’t you want to say that.

Now to the reason you believe what you believe is that Ronald Reagan made you comfortable with the fact that as long as you called yourself conservative then you were a good person no matter what you were doing.  You were acting conservatively which literally means status quo.  Conservative means don’t change anything.  Conserve what we have, it is a philosophy built on fear.  If you move you will end up losing something.  It is based on zero sum thinking.  It is like you are in a minefield.  You can’t go anywhere.  What Ronald Reagan got you to believe is that conservative meant prudent.  That being said you could decide to act prejudicially and because you were a “conservative person” you were not bad, just conservative.  That is how Ronald Reagan made us comfortable with our prejudices.  He made you fear.  That is why you believe what you believe. 

Are you seriously going to argue that panhandlers were not around before Reagan???  Puh-lease... 

What we had were panhandlers.  When you talked to them they were people down on their luck and people that were just not that smart but they were all there.  The ones now to the man are mentally ill.  These are a different type of person on the street.  Before Reagan they were picked up and taken care of in mental institutions.  Now they litter the street.  Whenever you see them thank Ronald Wilson Reagan

[PositiveOutlook]

"We are not actually talking about healthcare, we are talking about health insurance. 

Up until recently, we were talking about healthcare, not health insurance...

"The question is who pays for the healthcare that we get.  The fact that the people that don’t have health insurance use emergency rooms is justification that we do need a public option."

Not if it costs us more money... which EVERY examination of this has shown that it does... Not to mention that people on Medicaid USE the emergency room, so they don't HAVE TO schedule an appointment with a private doctor who accepts Medicaid.  It is ABUSED everyday by the people WITH this insurance...  The less you pay for something, the MORE you use it... Simple FACT of life...

"The problem to solve is that everybody is not covered by insurance."

This problem is ALREADY solved... noone can be turned away for healthcare at the hospital... 

"The solution is to provide a safety net that no one will fall below."

The safety net is ALREADY there... again, they cannot turn you away for care...  On top of this, when you call to make arrangements to pay (assuming they would even do this), the hospital is REQUIRED to accept what you can pay...

"That is the socialized part of it.  Even you are for that.  So why don’t you want to say that."   &   "You just used the fact that people use socialized medicine to justify why we don’t need socialized medicine."

No, that is the SUBSIDIZED part... by going single-payer, or putting us on the path to single-payer, THAT is socialized healthcare... MEANING the GOVERNMENT makes the decisions...

Once you REMOVE the government as referee between the insurance company and you, THEY BECOME the problem and you have noone to referee...  Just ask the THOUSANDS of people who come to the USA for healthcare each year...  Does this not tell you anything???



Not to mention that this takes away the CHOICE of whether you want insurance or not... 

[PositiveOutlook]

"Now to the reason you believe what you believe is that Ronald Reagan made you comfortable with the fact that as long as you called yourself conservative then you were a good person no matter what you were doing.  You were acting conservatively which literally means status quo.  Conservative means don’t change anything." 

This is a faulty understanding of Conservative political ideology...

"Conserve what we have, it is a philosophy built on fear."

So we agree, global warming is based on fear...   

"It is based on zero sum thinking."

No, this is the liberal mindset... you take from the rich to give to the poor, BECAUSE you believe there is a limited amount of american pie, and the "rich" have too much... conservatives believe in an EVER-EXPANDING pie, but the GOVERNMENT limits the pan size... 

"It is like you are in a minefield.  You can’t go anywhere.  What Ronald Reagan got you to believe is that conservative meant prudent."

No, Reagan DEMONSTRATED how GOVERNMNENT IS THE PROBLEM...  Regan cut taxes ACROSS the board, REVENUES to the government DRAMATICALLY INCREASED... but the GOVERNMENT SPENT IT...  Instead of paying down our debt with it... THEY found ways, BOTH PARTIES, to WASTE it... this continues to this day...  which is WHY an ever-expanding government is the problem... 

"That being said you could decide to act prejudicially and because you were a “conservative person” you were not bad, just conservative."

So, you are saying I am prejucial being a conservative, without at the same time recognizing your prejudice for thinking so???   

"That is how Ronald Reagan made us comfortable with our prejudices.  He made you fear.  That is why you believe what you believe."

No, I believe what I believe, BECAUSE I read history, and we are watching happen to our country EXACTLY what our FOUNDING FATHERS WARNED against... simple as that...

You are agreeing with a pholosophy that people DIED to protect us from...

[PositiveOutlook]

"What we had were panhandlers.  When you talked to them they were people down on their luck and people that were just not that smart but they were all there."

So, it is your assertion that all homeless prior to Reagan were "all there" and after, not so much...

"The ones now to the man are mentally ill."

So now all homeless people are mentally ill to the man?  If this is your view, then you don't have much interaction with the homeless...

"These are a different type of person on the street.  Before Reagan they were picked up and taken care of in mental institutions."

You obvioiusly didn't read the act or about the ACLU... one of the reasons FOR this act, was that the people you said Pre-Reagan were not mentally ill, were being picked up and institutionalized against their will...

"Now they litter the street.  Whenever you see them thank Ronald Wilson Reagan"

This is BOGUS...