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Author Topic: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.  (Read 73226 times)

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2009, 04:00:18 pm »
I would like to publicly apologize to Positive Outlook. Based on the information I have I cannot prove that he lied and therefore I should have never asserted it.
Christopher W
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Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2009, 04:01:04 pm »
Although I did feel it was strong enough to go to war over...

I kid. I kid.
Christopher W
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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2009, 04:08:06 pm »
Apology accepted... thank you...

I have MORE respect for you that you did it publicly in the same space you made the assertion...    :beer

I am sure others do too...    :biggrin    issue put to bed...

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2009, 04:10:25 pm »
If you are attributing the traits of a separate entity as being the federal government separate from the PEOPLE, then this might make sense... but as it stands now, the federal government is supposed to be a government OF the people, meaning that WE not a separate entity should make this decision, not a Czar or uniliaterally the President, because then what you are saying is that the PRESIDENT owns these shares...  They should have some say, as in input, not be able to DICTATE what the pay structure is, and the OTHER stockholders should ALSO be heard, or do we ignore them? 

The President was elected to run this country by WE the people. We put him there to make these decisions. if he wants to DELEGATE some of this authority to a CONSULTANT and call him a CZAR what is the big deal. I can understand your concern if this was aimed at all large corporations, but at this point it is aimed at companies that took bailout money. Do you want to be in on the decision making for how EVERY tax dollar is spent because honestly that is what it sounds like.

This person was neither elected or is accountable to the PEOPLE of the country...  NOR was he vettted for the position through Congressional oversight, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be there for...  Czar's are unelected, unaccountable to the people of the country, and subject to the WHIM of the President...  The internet provides us with a GREAT TOOL to give our opinion on this...  but they will NOT do this, because just like with TARP, etc... which the overwhelming MAJORITY of the people DID NOT WANT, Obama and the Dem's will IGNORE the will of the people and do whatever they want...

He is accountable to the President which is who picked him out. The man elected by the majority of voters in this country.

When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT REFUSES to provide details on where OUR MONEY is going during congressional oversight, he is NOT the person we should be trusting, and his motvations AND actions become EXTREMELY suspect...  THAT is NOT transparency and does NOT deserve trust...  the fact that he is an expert in the depression could call into question his motives, but we'll never know, as apparently HE IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE....

Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been as transparent as Bernanke. You can't. The Fed chairman position as a whole has been cloaked in secrecy from the beginning. While I think that the reason for this is questionable it does make some sense. I don't want the stock market dropping 500 points because Ben Bernanke missed his Starbucks stop on the way to an interview and is testy.

I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now."

And when they change to Constitution to meet those times, you may have an argument, until then, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL...


At this point I am more concerned about getting us out of the recession, off the brink of financial collapse and moving forward. I can't worry about tomorrow or next week while I am still worrying about today.

We were TOLD we Absolutely COULD NOT let GM/Chrysler go into bankruptcy... it would RUIN everyone ACROSS THE BOARD... this was their rational... so, after BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOST, they do it ANYWAY, and the BUSINESS OWNERS (dealers) and their EMPLOYEES get the COMPLETE shaft while the government PROTECTS and gives a better deal to the UNIONS than the SECURED CREDITORS (must make those who have secured investments with the government feel REAL good)...  EXACTLY WHY the government SHOULD NOT be doing this... the are MANY critical industries to this country, and they CANNOT ALL BE BAILED OUT...

Chrysler and GM are far from out of the woods. This is just the beginning. Without the bail-out funds production would have been stopped months ago. There would have been no time to work with the creditors, no time to find buyers. It would have been LIGHTS OUT. Massive unemployment. From the parts suppliers to the delivery drivers to the car saleman. Heck Ford has not failed yet and many think they could be on their way.

Tell me how these programs have stabilized the real estate market... 

By bring Fannie/feddie into the fold they have allowed them to borrow funds and keep the housing market afloat. If Fannie and Freddie were not bailed out home purchases in general would have come to a screeching halt. We would have been back in the times after the great depression when only local banks loaned money.

If they cannot survive on their own, they must be allowed to FAIL... the banking industry is NOT going away, and displaced workers from this will find jobs...  subsidizing these companies just makes it WORSE, otherwise AIG would not have had to borrow MORE money, and I suspect they will back at the trough soon enough until sanity returns...   

Your correct the banking industry is not going away but we avoided a lot of pain by taking the measures that were taken. I'm sure the displaced workers out there would love your "oh well" attitude towards job loss. Very easy for you to sit there and say when you are self-employed and not the primary wage earner.



Glad that is over. Now you can get back to responding to my responses to your responses.  :beer
Christopher W
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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2009, 04:43:24 pm »
I'll have to get back to on that later tonight hopefully... no time right now for a full response...

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #185 on: June 18, 2009, 11:57:35 am »
"I can understand your concern if this was aimed at all large corporations, but at this point it is aimed at companies that took bailout money."

They are looking to expand this to across the board...  This is what the Dem leadership WANTS, and are on RECORD saying... Obama NEEDS them, so who do you think he will capitulate to...

"Do you want to be in on the decision making for how EVERY tax dollar is spent because honestly that is what it sounds like."

No, that is unrealistic... problem is, the people that we have elected to spend the dollars are not even LOOKING AT THE LEGISLATION before voting for it...

"He is accountable to the President which is who picked him out. The man elected by the majority of voters in this country."

Problem is, this particular "czar"'s method of calculating HOW these people are to be compensated IS NOT under scrutiny...  nor can it be challenged giving the GOVERNMENT all the power...

"Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been as transparent as Bernanke. You can't. The Fed chairman position as a whole has been cloaked in secrecy from the beginning. While I think that the reason for this is questionable it does make some sense. I don't want the stock market dropping 500 points because Ben Bernanke missed his Starbucks stop on the way to an interview and is testy."

How can you possibly assert with a straight face that Bernanke is transparent?  When Paulsen and Bernanke first proposed TARP, they WANTED NO oversight, and just wanted a blank check...  even thought this was supposed to have been fixed, when he was asked in oversight committee to provide details on where the money is going, he said NO...  ANOTHER UNELECTED person CONTROLLING TRILLIONS of OUR MONEY with NO OVERSIGHT...

"At this point I am more concerned about getting us out of the recession, off the brink of financial collapse and moving forward. I can't worry about tomorrow or next week while I am still worrying about today."

And it is this type of short-sighted thinking that is leading to BILIIONS upon BILLIONS of money LITERALLY being WASTED...

"There would have been no time to work with the creditors, no time to find buyers. It would have been LIGHTS OUT. Massive unemployment. From the parts suppliers to the delivery drivers to the car saleman"

Going into bankruptcy. which we were TOLD COULD NOT be allowed to happen as a basis for lending them the money in the first place, is EXACTLY what happened, and is WHERE those negotiations take place... Imagine the personal destruction these people caused on their dealer network...  I'll NEVER buy another GM/Chrsyler viehicle... BECAUSE FORD did NOT take the money, I would throw my business their way FIRST...  So it will ultimately backfire on GM/Chrysler anyway...  I love their new slogan... "We're not going out of business, we're getting down to business"... ON YOUR MONEY!...  :rolleyes

"Your correct the banking industry is not going away but we avoided a lot of pain by taking the measures that were taken."

No, the pain was displaced to the people...  both in finances AND jobs...  Obama said if we didn't pass the "Stimulus" unemployment would hit 8%... we passed it, and it not only hit 8%, it shot right past it to 9 1/2% and now OBAMA is saying we'll be above 10% (it already is now, but the numbers are being fixed)...  Wrong AGAIN, just like ALL the rosy projection they put foward to get "stimulus", Omnibus and the 3.5 TRILLION budget, all of which, THEY DID NOT EVEN READ or even QUESTION.... but let's just give 'em more...   :banghead

" I'm sure the displaced workers out there would love your "oh well" attitude towards job loss."

The "oh well" attitude is on your end, letting GOVERNMENT off the hook for this... I'm furious that people are being SCREWED by the INCOMPETANCE of the government, and the absolute DESTRUCTION of the PEOPLE'S wealth for GENERATIONS TO COME...  and now they are going to make it WORSE for ALL people with Cap and Trade TAX, rising interest rates, harder for people to get or keep credit, and nationalized healthcare...  all this DESPITE them being WRONG at EVERY turn on this...

You may be willing to go along with this insanity, which is in direct CONTRAST to what our country was founded on and SUPPOSED to be about...  I didn't support Bush's role in TARP and his lack of vetoing spending, and I'm certainly NOT going to start now just because Obama is doing it...

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #186 on: June 18, 2009, 08:08:01 pm »
They are looking to expand this to across the board...  This is what the Dem leadership WANTS, and are on RECORD saying... Obama NEEDS them, so who do you think he will capitulate to...

So now your saying that Dems want to put a cap on all corporate pay? Please show me where you have "solid" proof of this and not just one guy trying to appease some of his costituents.

No, that is unrealistic... problem is, the people that we have elected to spend the dollars are not even LOOKING AT THE LEGISLATION before voting for it...

You do make a good point here. I do think it was rushed through rather quickly.

Problem is, this particular "czar"'s method of calculating HOW these people are to be compensated IS NOT under scrutiny...  nor can it be challenged giving the GOVERNMENT all the power...

Pay back your TARP money and you have nothing to worry about. If you took bailout money and the US Govt. ie. the citizens of the US are your largest shareholder then sorry you made the deal with the devil. Remember he who has the gold makes the rules.

How can you possibly assert with a straight face that Bernanke is transparent?  When Paulsen and Bernanke first proposed TARP, they WANTED NO oversight, and just wanted a blank check...  even thought this was supposed to have been fixed, when he was asked in oversight committee to provide details on where the money is going, he said NO...  ANOTHER UNELECTED person CONTROLLING TRILLIONS of OUR MONEY with NO OVERSIGHT...

Bernanke is not transparent at all. But the point I am making is that NO FED CHAIRMAN HAS EVER BEEN TRANSPARENT. This is how it has been since the FED was formed. Now all of the sudden you want to complain?

And it is this type of short-sighted thinking that is leading to BILIIONS upon BILLIONS of money LITERALLY being WASTED...

You have no idea how this will turn out. If it keeps the economy from sinking into a depression is it worth it then? TARP is already starting to be repaid.

Going into bankruptcy. which we were TOLD COULD NOT be allowed to happen as a basis for lending them the money in the first place, is EXACTLY what happened, and is WHERE those negotiations take place... Imagine the personal destruction these people caused on their dealer network...  I'll NEVER buy another GM/Chrsyler viehicle... BECAUSE FORD did NOT take the money, I would throw my business their way FIRST...  So it will ultimately backfire on GM/Chrysler anyway...  I love their new slogan... "We're not going out of business, we're getting down to business"... ON YOUR MONEY!...

The dealer system was old and antiquated anyway. It was time for an overhaul. The system was old and bloated. These companies had way to many dealerships. This was the perfect time for them to slim down. Seriously, how many Chrysler dealerships does one city need. And you can say what you want about never giving business to Chrysler/GM, but it is exactly that type of thinking that can hurt the economy. A lot of people file BK every year. It is not a crime. Regardless of what was said  I think we all knew that BK was an inevitabilty for these companies. What I was talking about was business coming to a screeching halt. At least this way these companies had time to get their ducks in a row and not have to pink slip hundreds of thousands of people while the government sat by and let it happen.

The "oh well" attitude is on your end, letting GOVERNMENT off the hook for this... I'm furious that people are being SCREWED by the INCOMPETANCE of the government, and the absolute DESTRUCTION of the PEOPLE'S wealth for GENERATIONS TO COME...  and now they are going to make it WORSE for ALL people with Cap and Trade TAX, rising interest rates, harder for people to get or keep credit, and nationalized healthcare...  all this DESPITE them being WRONG at EVERY turn on this...

My attitude is that the govt. got us into this and they need to get us out. How is the govt. responsible for destruction of people wealth? I think the blame for that falls squarely on Wall Street. The govt has nothing to do with the credit lock-up that is what TARP was supposed to help. Once again I would be looking to Wall Street for your answers.
Christopher W
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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #187 on: June 18, 2009, 10:14:32 pm »
"So now your saying that Dems want to put a cap on all corporate pay? Please show me where you have "solid" proof of this and not just one guy trying to appease some of his costituents."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/47873732.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Administration-Rein-in-pay-apf-15500519.html?.v=6


From the below article - "Tomorrow, the argument will extend to executives in all public companies. Already this is where Congressional Democrats are saying they want this to go."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/11/opinion/main5081996.shtml


" the citizens of the US are your largest shareholder then sorry you made the deal with the devil."

If you are going to approach this from a "shareholder" perspective, then the MINORITY shareholders are not even being provided a voice on this...  ONLY the GOVERNMENT.. NOT a good thing... It's one thing to MAKE the deal, it's another to have the TERMS CHANGED AFTER you've taken the money... unethical to the core...

BERNANKE

First you say - "Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been AS TRANSPARENT as Bernanke."  Then you say - "Bernanke is not transparent at all." ... you are arguing with yourself, I was responding to your assertion that he was "transparent".... 

"And you can say what you want about never giving business to Chrysler/GM, but it is exactly that type of thinking that can hurt the economy."

You must have MISSED where I said I would give the business to FORD first... money still in the economy, just not supporting socialism in the process...

" I think we all knew that BK was an inevitabilty for these companies"

You must have missed ALL THE ARGUMENTS that were made to keep funding them BECAUSE we COULDN"T AFFORD them going into bankrupcty...  BILLIONS later... if you "knew" this, why do you not only NOT want to hold the GOVERNMENT accoutable for mismanaging BILLIONS of dollars, but want to continue to give them MORE power for the same incompetance?...

"At least this way these companies had time to get their ducks in a row and not have to pink slip hundreds of thousands of people while the government sat by and let it happen."

Bankruptcy would have done the SAME thing WITHOUT costing us BILLIONS of dollars...

"My attitude is that the govt. got us into this and they need to get us out"

So if your rational is to let the same people who CAUSED the problem (first time I actually saw you actually assigning any of this blame to the government, bravo), FIX the problem, WHY then should not the people in their respective industries be the ones to fix it, and NOT pretend that the government knows what they are doing in all these industries???   :banghead

"How is the govt. responsible for destruction of people wealth?'

You ARE kidding, right?

"I think the blame for that falls squarely on Wall Street. "

Yes, you're right, Christopher... NONE of the MULTIPLE governemnt agencies and congressional oversight committee's (i.e. - the governments "experts" on these issues) , who were SUPPOSED to "protect us" from these scenario's and is the REASON for their existence FAILED MISERABLY, are not accountable for this... and now you want  them to add MORE government oversight of the very thing they FAILED to do the first time as well as BLINDLY give the FED EXPANDED powers BEYOND their pervue NOT ACCOUTABLE to the PEOPLE!...   :banghead

I think what bothers me the most about this, is that the government is getting a FREE ride on the accountability side of this... ONLY the private sector is feeling any pain, but NONE of the politicians and government bureaucrats... On top of that, THEY are now the EXPERTS to get us out of this???   :banghead
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:26:54 pm by PositiveOutlook »

Offline sellnbama

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #188 on: June 19, 2009, 08:16:00 am »
The "private sector" will have it's revenge on who's the real blame in the 2010 election,don't forget to spread the word on this important election.

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #189 on: June 19, 2009, 08:29:33 am »
Unfortunately, Seillinbama, ALOT of damage will occur between now and then...  which is also WHY they are RUSHING everything through... Not even READING the legislation, much less debating the merits of it, which is what they are SUPPOSED to do, and WHAT we pay them for...

Noone is calling for "clawbacks" and salary cuts for them for NOT doing their job... only the private sector...   :bs
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 08:47:20 am by PositiveOutlook »

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #190 on: June 19, 2009, 09:36:29 am »
"So now your saying that Dems want to put a cap on all corporate pay? Please show me where you have "solid" proof of this and not just one guy trying to appease some of his costituents."

Gene Sperling, a top counselor to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, conceded to a congressional committee that imposing compensation caps on companies could lead to a flight of talent.

"I can say with certainty that nobody in the Obama administration is proposing such a thing," he said.

This is just Barney Frank spouting his crap again. As I said show me where there is a general consensus for something like this and I will agree they congress may be pushing the envelope but at this point it is just one or two people talking out loud.

First you say - "Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been AS TRANSPARENT as Bernanke."  Then you say - "Bernanke is not transparent at all." ... you are arguing with yourself, I was responding to your assertion that he was "transparent".... 

My point was that the Fed chairman is never transparent. Since the inception of the Fed the chairman has always been very discrete because they want to avoid affecting the markets with a slip of the tongue or a bad interview. However the first interview EVER given by a sitting Fed chairman was last week on 60 minutes by Ben Bernanke so I guess that does make him the most transparent Fed chairman ever...

If you are going to approach this from a "shareholder" perspective, then the MINORITY shareholders are not even being provided a voice on this...  ONLY the GOVERNMENT.. NOT a good thing... It's one thing to MAKE the deal, it's another to have the TERMS CHANGED AFTER you've taken the money... unethical to the core...

When these funds were being given I don't think there was a lot of time for the govt. and the banks to pour through every nook and cranny and set rules. If the banks were concerned about this they could have said "we are going to hold off and ask a couple of questions" instead they stood up raised there hand and to quote Charles Dickens said "Please sir, may I have some more". As I said pay back your TARP money and you won't have any problems.

You must have missed ALL THE ARGUMENTS that were made to keep funding them BECAUSE we COULDN"T AFFORD them going into bankrupcty...  BILLIONS later... if you "knew" this, why do you not only NOT want to hold the GOVERNMENT accoutable for mismanaging BILLIONS of dollars, but want to continue to give them MORE power for the same incompetance?...

It is very interesting that you keep coming back to the billions and billions wasted phrase; yet you ignore the billions and billions we have wasted in Iraq. Not to mention the billions and billions more we continue to waste everyday while we engage in rebuilding their nation. To me it makes your argument about wasted "billions" ring very hollow.

Christopher W
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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #191 on: June 19, 2009, 04:19:38 pm »
Christopher,

Barney Frank is the House Financial Services Committee Chairman, so what he has to say on this can't be ignored as just another senator (he's NOT the only one) bloviating....

"As I said show me where there is a general consensus for something like this and I will agree they congress may be pushing the envelope but at this point it is just one or two people talking out loud"

Try reading the articles posted...

"But on Thursday Democrats AND administration officials AGREED that companies ACROSS the private sector need to adjust compensation practices to avoid damaging the economy.

"We believe that compensation practices must be better aligned with long-term value and prudent risk management AT ALL FIRMS, and not JUST for the financial services industry," Sperling said."


http://news.aol.com/article/geither-admin-wont-seek-exec-pay-cap/521911

Considering OBAMA/Giethner want to EXPAND the (unelected, unaccountable to the people) Fed's power to encompass companies BEYOND finance, we can see where this is going...  They will just get the Fed to do it for them... and there will be NOTHING you can do about it...


"It is very interesting that you keep coming back to the billions and billions wasted phrase; yet you ignore the billions and billions we have wasted in Iraq. Not to mention the billions and billions more we continue to waste everyday while we engage in rebuilding their nation. To me it makes your argument about wasted "billions" ring very hollow."

LOL...  The fact that Obama has spent MORE in the past few MONTHS than ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS PREVIOUSLY, INCLUDING BUSH, COMBINED throughout our history as a country (which INCLUDES the money successfully defending our nation in Iraq and Afghanistan and the LARGEST natural disaster in our HISTORY - Katrina), and CONTINUES to want MORE AND MORE AND MORE... should at the very least give you pause...  Considering this, to hear you attack the money spent on Iraq, successfully DEFENDING our country, which IS the governments role rings hollow... 

How can you POSSIBLY even BEGIN to criticize the spending on Iraq when we are literally BAILING OUT companies THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS, and providing BILLIONS to foreign governments???  And now the Dems want to give $108 BILLION (which is MORE than Iraq COSTS for a YEAR) to the UN with no conditions which would mean OUR money, which we HAVE TO BORROW, can go to our enemies and terrorists...  Talk about ringing hollow...


Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #192 on: June 19, 2009, 05:23:08 pm »
Positive,

We are going to have to agree to disagree about the govt. controlling corporate pay. So you honestly believe that the obama adminstration is going to step in and say that they have control over their pay system?


The administration plans to seek legislation that would try to rein in compensation at publicly traded companies through nonbinding shareholder votes and by decreasing management influence on pay decisions.


So by putting more power into the hands of the shareholder they are trying to keep a handle on outrageous corporate executive pay. Please explain how that is a bad thing.

Yes, you're right, Christopher... NONE of the MULTIPLE governemnt agencies and congressional oversight committee's (i.e. - the governments "experts" on these issues) , who were SUPPOSED to "protect us" from these scenario's and is the REASON for their existence FAILED MISERABLY, are not accountable for this...

Well this is the regulation that you were asking for. If those oversight committees had done their job years ago we may not be in this situation. Why are you upset about it now?

How can you POSSIBLY even BEGIN to criticize the spending on Iraq when we are literally BAILING OUT companies THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS, and providing BILLIONS to foreign governments???  And now the Dems want to give $108 BILLION (which is MORE than Iraq COSTS for a YEAR) to the UN with no conditions which would mean OUR money, which we HAVE TO BORROW, can go to our enemies and terrorists...  Talk about ringing hollow...

The reason I have to address it is because it is the elephant in the room that everyone who is complaining about spending refuses to acknowledge. We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis in most if not all of our lifetimes. The money that is being spent is obscene, but whatever they are doing is working. The economy is getting better albeit rather slowly, but it did not come to a grinding halt.

As for the foreign aid; that has been going on for years and years. Foreign aid is nothing new. And c'mon man you know why that money is going to the UN. Maintenance on their building and goodwill from around the world. That money is like money that cops pay to informers. Citizens of other countries may not like us, but for the most part GOVERNMENTS of other countries LOVE us. We keep the lights on and up until a few months ago we were the police force for the planet.

Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

Offline jfpen

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #193 on: June 19, 2009, 06:20:50 pm »
Here's something to think about.
 As far as compensation for executives is concerned, from a shareholder perspective people do have the choice to buy the stock of that company or not.
From a consumers perspective, people have the choice of buying that company's product or service or not.

How do you think investor/consumer choices could influence this?

JP

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #194 on: June 19, 2009, 07:14:31 pm »
"Well this is the regulation that you were asking for. If those oversight committees had done their job years ago we may not be in this situation. Why are you upset about it now?"

My point is they did not do the job with the EXISTING MULTIPLE agencies and congressional oversight committee's, which is the REASON for their existence... so the answer is to add ANOTHER agency, at MORE cost???  What about the other agencies, committee's and politicians??? Where is the accountability for NOT doing their job???  Why are you NOT upset about it to the point where you are calling for some accountability from government???

The government's role in all of this is MORE egregious IMHO, because they created these OVERLAPPING agencies/committee's to supposedly "protect us" from these situations... They couldn't even handle Madoff, and his small potatoes, now you want to give them MORE responsibility with ANOTHER overlapping agency, and on top of this, EXPAND the Fed's powers, who are NOT elected nor accountable to the people???

"but whatever they are doing is working."

And here is where I disagree with you completely...  TARP was not used to remove the "toxic assets" and free up the credit...  All of the funds haven't been disbursed yet for TARP, and BILLIONS were used for the auto industry, and BILLIONS went to foreign governments...  Only 5% of the "stimulus" has actually been distributed, "omnibus" and the 3.5 TRILLION dollar budget hasn't either... so, if things are "working" what exactly are you saying is working??? 

"TARP"  was SUPPOSED to be used to remove the "toxic assets" from the marketplace to "unfreeze" credit markets...  right off the bat, they WASTED $70+BILLION of it (10% of the money)...  Credit markets have not only NOT unfrozen, it's gotten WORSE...

"Stimulus" - we were told if we didn't pass stimulus, unemployment would reach 8%... we have not only shot past it to 9 1/2%, but OBAMA is now saying we will go over 10% (it's actually higher now, but the numbers are rigged)....

"Omnibus" - BUSH was going to VETO this, because of the 8% INCREASE in spending, so the DEMS put it off until Obama was in office...  They left all the earmarks in, where Obama had COMPLETE CONTROL over whether to veto it or not... and the INCREASED spending plan was signed by Obama...

"3.5 TRILLION" dollar budget - do we really even need to go into detail on this sham...


My point is, I watch as Obama supporters skewer Bush for spending over the last 8 years (which was REALLY the previous 6, as the DEMs have been in control of the checkbook since 2006, and Bush was lame duck), which he deserved IMHO for NOT vetoing more, but are OK with Obama spending more than all other presidents, including Bush... COMBINED...   :shocked     It belies any common sense...

« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 09:05:35 am by PositiveOutlook »

 




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