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Author Topic: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.  (Read 73227 times)

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #165 on: June 11, 2009, 11:36:02 am »
Positive,

Christopher, I would ask that you consider the motiviation behind the whole executive pay issue... If the government wants to put a condition on companies who receive TARP money regarding executive pay, as long as they know that BEFORE they accept the money, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that... but not are they doing it AFTER the fact, but are refusing to let banks pay back the money... add to that, the Dem's want to EXPAND this across the board, even if they did not take TARP money...

This whole bailout thing happened so quickly I don't believe there was time to think of every contingency. They are not refusing the money completely they just want guidelines on how it should be paid back and with what funds.

Everybody knows when you dance with the devil you get burned. When they went to the govt asking for money they should have been smarter about getting it. If you go to a loan shark. once he gives you that money you are his. He has the gold. He makes the rules.

Now these companies that borrowered this money want to whine about the guidleines that come along with it? Give me a break.

You'll note, that Fannie and Freddie who have taken MORE, are not subject to the same conditions, nor were they excoriated and crtitized by the media for retention bonuses... only AIG... why????

Fannie/Freddie were already quasi-govt anyway and they got caught in the middle of the sub-prime crisis. AIG made billions of worthless insurance policies that they wrote on debt instruments. Think about collecting billions of dollars on insurance policies and then when the time came to pay up they gave us the "Oops our bad. We never expected this. If you don't give us 80B by Wednesday we are going to crumble and probably take a couple of small foreign countries with us. See ya Wednesday!!".  That is probably why Fannie/Freddie get a pass and AIG is getting hammered.

Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #166 on: June 11, 2009, 11:54:22 am »
Positive,

On top of this, just like with FDjake... you challenged my integrity by calling me a liar... I asked you to PROVE it using my words from my posts, and you did not, just like FDjake didn't... so your "truthful" statement rings quite hollow...

I will be happy to point out at least one falsehood that you have posted here, but that would involve me breaking the privacy policy between you and I that could lose me my job. I am not willing to do that. However if you are willing to sign a document that I will email over to you releasing me from liability I will be happy to nail you to the wall. If you are not willing to do this then please quit with the ridiculous diatribes and lets focus on the discussion at hand.

The ball is in your court.

Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #167 on: June 11, 2009, 12:11:55 pm »
"I will be happy to point out at least one falsehood that you have posted here, but that would involve me breaking the privacy policy between you and I that could lose me my job."

PM me with the details...  and then we'll see if it is even relevant...  Otherwise, it stands...

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #168 on: June 11, 2009, 12:20:43 pm »
"lose me my job"

I thought you were a self-employed broker?  Did I misunderstand this...

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2009, 12:31:19 pm »
Christopher,

"If the US Goverment has bailed you out and owns a majority of your stock then as majority shareholder they should have some say in executive compensation"

If you are attributing the traits of a separate entity as being the federal government separate from the PEOPLE, then this might make sense... but as it stands now, the federal government is supposed to be a government OF the people, meaning that WE not a separate entity should make this decision, not a Czar or uniliaterally the President, because then what you are saying is that the PRESIDENT owns these shares...  They should have some say, as in input, not be able to DICTATE what the pay structure is, and the OTHER stockholders should ALSO be heard, or do we ignore them? 


"So your okay with outrageous executive pay, but the unions are what are making you angry?"

Christopher, I never said I was for "outrageous" executive pay...  But I AM against the government putting aside CONTRACT LAW, and DICTATING what that compensation is AFTER the fact...  Like I said, if it was a condition of getting access to the TARP money, and they accepted it, I would not have a problem with it...  Shareholders can make their voice heard in publicly traded companies, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE THIS OPTION with our shares...


"The President did not create this problem. He walked into it, and now he is doing what he can to fix it."

This is a total FALSEHOOD... the Dem's have been in CONTROL of the checkbook of this country since 2006, and it was THEY, INCLUDING Obama, who pushed for TARP, (1/3 support for the Rep's), the "Stimulus" bill (Zero Rep support), the Omnibus (which Bush was going to VETO, but the DEMS, WHO WERE IN CONTROL put it off until Obama was in office, and THEN voted for it WITH the increases INLCUDING the earmarks that Obama COULD have veto'd), the new 3.5 TRILLION dollar budget (very little Rep support)...  Never mind the Dem's STOPPING addressing Freddie and Fannie, like the Rep's wanted to (who knows how much could have been averted if addressed earlier)...

So, it is in fact NOT TRUE that Obama and the Dem's "inherited" it....  it is replete with THEIR decisions on this... not even WILLING to listen to opposition and shutting the Rep's down....


"The US Govt. has brought on a consultant to go in and make the decision for us"

This person was neither elected or is accountable to the PEOPLE of the country...  NOR was he vettted for the position through Congressional oversight, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be there for...  Czar's are unelected, unaccountable to the people of the country, and subject to the WHIM of the President...  The internet provides us with a GREAT TOOL to give our opinion on this...  but they will NOT do this, because just like with TARP, etc... which the overwhelming MAJORITY of the people DID NOT WANT, Obama and the Dem's will IGNORE the will of the people and do whatever they want...





"WHEN A GUY WITH A PHD IN ECONOMICS FROM MIT SAYS THE BAILOUTS WERE NEEDED I AM GOING TO TRUST HIM. ESPECIALLY WHEN HE IS ALSO CONSIDERED AN EXPERT ON THE GREAT DEPRESSION. "

When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT REFUSES to provide details on where OUR MONEY is going during congressional oversight, he is NOT the person we should be trusting, and his motvations AND actions become EXTREMELY suspect...  THAT is NOT transparency and does NOT deserve trust...  the fact that he is an expert in the depression could call into question his motives, but we'll never know, as apparently HE IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE....




"As a contractor you probably work for yourself. True? What happens when your money supply drys up? Your credit line (if you have one) dry up? The builder you just did work for can't pay you? Now you can't pay your workers. Your suppliers close down your credit lines because there banks shut down their lines of credit."

Christopher, that credit it STILL "dried up", even though we are borrowing our OWN money that we gave them, which we are borrowing from China to give them, which WE will pay the interest on to do so...  So the banks, and FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS (BILLIONS) got the money, but the conditions are STILL the same a year later... actually WORSE...  the other shoe of inflation and double-digit unemployment are yet to drop...

They are going to hold onto that money until interest rates continue to climb... So they get it borrowed at almost ZERO ONLY to lend it back to us at an even GREATER profit margin... And you are worried about executive compensation at a HANDFUL of TARP money recipients?...


"I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now."

And when they change to Constitution to meet those times, you may have an argument, until then, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL...

Our courts are failing us, our politicians are failing us, they spending us INTO oblivion, with NO HOPE of EVER retiring the national debt and with "DEFICITS as far as the eye can see" (Obama quote), with challenges to our national sovereignty, as well as other rights, Tea Party tax revolts across the county, and you find it hard to believe why people don't trust what's going on...  Especially when the MAJORITY of PEOPLE said they wanted NONE of these bailout programs and CONTINUE not to...


"What is your solution? Let banks fail?"

As I have indeed said before, YES... if they CANNOT make it on their own, they go into bankruptcy, assets are sold, and/or they are gobbled up...  you CANNOT protect one industry over another...

We were TOLD we Absolutely COULD NOT let GM/Chrysler go into bankruptcy... it would RUIN everyone ACROSS THE BOARD... this was their rational... so, after BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOST, they do it ANYWAY, and the BUSINESS OWNERS (dealers) and their EMPLOYEES get the COMPLETE shaft while the government PROTECTS and gives a better deal to the UNIONS than the SECURED CREDITORS (must make those who have secured investments with the government feel REAL good)...  EXACTLY WHY the government SHOULD NOT be doing this... the are MANY critical industries to this country, and they CANNOT ALL BE BAILED OUT...

It affects the "full faith and credit of the United States" - Maybe why the Chines LAUGHED at Geitner when trying to allay their legitimate concerns...

"Let unemployment jump to double digits?"

It is going there DESPITE these efforts...

"Not have the real estate market stabilize for years?"

Tell me how these programs have stabilized the real estate market... 


"So once again Positive I am asking for an alternative solution. And I mean that in a most sincere way."

If they cannot survive on their own, they must be allowed to FAIL... the banking industry is NOT going away, and displaced workers from this will find jobs...  subsidizing these companies just makes it WORSE, otherwise AIG would not have had to borrow MORE money, and I suspect they will back at the trough soon enough until sanity returns... 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 12:37:51 pm by PositiveOutlook »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2009, 12:31:50 pm »
BTW, still haven't received the PM from you...

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2009, 01:30:15 pm »
Sorry I was at lunch. Doing it now.
Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2009, 01:54:53 pm »
Christopher,

Check your PM...  you are INCORRECT on your assertion in the PM, read the PM's I sent you...


Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2009, 01:56:04 pm »
If you are attributing the traits of a separate entity as being the federal government separate from the PEOPLE, then this might make sense... but as it stands now, the federal government is supposed to be a government OF the people, meaning that WE not a separate entity should make this decision, not a Czar or uniliaterally the President, because then what you are saying is that the PRESIDENT owns these shares...  They should have some say, as in input, not be able to DICTATE what the pay structure is, and the OTHER stockholders should ALSO be heard, or do we ignore them? 

The President was elected to run this country by WE the people. We put him there to make these decisions. if he wants to DELEGATE some of this authority to a CONSULTANT and call him a CZAR what is the big deal. I can understand your concern if this was aimed at all large corporations, but at this point it is aimed at companies that took bailout money. Do you want to be in on the decision making for how EVERY tax dollar is spent because honestly that is what it sounds like.

This person was neither elected or is accountable to the PEOPLE of the country...  NOR was he vettted for the position through Congressional oversight, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be there for...  Czar's are unelected, unaccountable to the people of the country, and subject to the WHIM of the President...  The internet provides us with a GREAT TOOL to give our opinion on this...  but they will NOT do this, because just like with TARP, etc... which the overwhelming MAJORITY of the people DID NOT WANT, Obama and the Dem's will IGNORE the will of the people and do whatever they want...

He is accountable to the President which is who picked him out. The man elected by the majority of voters in this country.

When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT REFUSES to provide details on where OUR MONEY is going during congressional oversight, he is NOT the person we should be trusting, and his motvations AND actions become EXTREMELY suspect...  THAT is NOT transparency and does NOT deserve trust...  the fact that he is an expert in the depression could call into question his motives, but we'll never know, as apparently HE IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE....

Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been as transparent as Bernanke. You can't. The Fed chairman position as a whole has been cloaked in secrecy from the beginning. While I think that the reason for this is questionable it does make some sense. I don't want the stock market dropping 500 points because Ben Bernanke missed his Starbucks stop on the way to an interview and is testy.

I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now."

And when they change to Constitution to meet those times, you may have an argument, until then, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL...


At this point I am more concerned about getting us out of the recession, off the brink of financial collapse and moving forward. I can't worry about tomorrow or next week while I am still worrying about today.

We were TOLD we Absolutely COULD NOT let GM/Chrysler go into bankruptcy... it would RUIN everyone ACROSS THE BOARD... this was their rational... so, after BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOST, they do it ANYWAY, and the BUSINESS OWNERS (dealers) and their EMPLOYEES get the COMPLETE shaft while the government PROTECTS and gives a better deal to the UNIONS than the SECURED CREDITORS (must make those who have secured investments with the government feel REAL good)...  EXACTLY WHY the government SHOULD NOT be doing this... the are MANY critical industries to this country, and they CANNOT ALL BE BAILED OUT...

Chrysler and GM are far from out of the woods. This is just the beginning. Without the bail-out funds production would have been stopped months ago. There would have been no time to work with the creditors, no time to find buyers. It would have been LIGHTS OUT. Massive unemployment. From the parts suppliers to the delivery drivers to the car saleman. Heck Ford has not failed yet and many think they could be on their way.

Tell me how these programs have stabilized the real estate market... 

By bring Fannie/feddie into the fold they have allowed them to borrow funds and keep the housing market afloat. If Fannie and Freddie were not bailed out home purchases in general would have come to a screeching halt. We would have been back in the times after the great depression when only local banks loaned money.

If they cannot survive on their own, they must be allowed to FAIL... the banking industry is NOT going away, and displaced workers from this will find jobs...  subsidizing these companies just makes it WORSE, otherwise AIG would not have had to borrow MORE money, and I suspect they will back at the trough soon enough until sanity returns...   

Your correct the banking industry is not going away but we avoided a lot of pain by taking the measures that were taken. I'm sure the displaced workers out there would love your "oh well" attitude towards job loss. Very easy for you to sit there and say when you are self-employed and not the primary wage earner.

Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

Offline HoldAndBuy

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #174 on: June 11, 2009, 02:00:45 pm »
I think he's referring to his job here as moderator.

"lose me my job"

I thought you were a self-employed broker?  Did I misunderstand this...

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2009, 02:41:03 pm »
Christopher, I responded to your PM again, and as you can see, I also used two SEPARATE threads (including the one YOU RESPONDED TO) from LAST YEAR to show you were incorrect...  You could have done the same, had you used the "search" button up top...

Now, let's hope you have the integrity to apologize PUBLICLY for your incorrect assertion just as you PUBLICLY asserted that I had made this "falsehood", which is NOT correct...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 02:48:59 pm by PositiveOutlook »

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2009, 03:13:28 pm »
Sorry Positive you can try and split the hairs all you want but you know the truth and I know the truth. Nothing I send you will matter though because you only accept answers that suit you. I have yet to see a posting from you that admits error. Ever.

As I said when I post something that is incorrect if wrong or out of line you can easily call me on it ar RookieNYC did once and I admitted my mistake.

You on the other hand beat a topic to death and if the answer does not come in the exact form or phrase that you are looking for you accuse people of avoiding the question.

For example you asked me to post my information. When I did what you asked it was not good enough because it was not PERSONAL information. Which you actually never specified. Then when I gave you my personal information it still was not correct because I did not post my SS#. Nothing is going to make you happy at this point other than total alliance to your way of thinking.

I understand your angry with the govt. and I understand that your angry at the economy in general, but all that anger is going to eat you up man.

Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2009, 03:34:31 pm »
OK Christopher, I gave you multiple opporunities to set this right, and now you PUBLICLY are now pushing a lie...  I will be addressing this further...   In the interim...

If I make a mistake, or tell a lie ABSOLUTELY feel free to call me on it...  But make sure you bring actual PROOF to the table...  You not only out and out lied in your assertion of my "falsehood" that you claimed, but then tried to assign PUBLIC records that did not even BELONG TO ME regaring my investment property from a year BEFORE I purchase my investment property...  this was AFTER I provided you with the county, and you, as a mortgage professional, and I assume using your employers work computer and having easy access to this information for verification...  If the text on our PM'ing is printed in this thread, Christopher, not only will your truthfulness be in question, but your ethics as a mortgage professional.  There were three (3) separate assertions made BY YOU in PM'ing that you KNOW to be false, so you are on pretty shaky ground here...  If I am lying right now, you can sue me for defamation of character as it would potentially affect your business, but as you can see I am NOT worried about that for obvious reasons... we know how I feel about putting my family at risk...

I am man enought to admit when I make a mistake, just feel free to back up your assertion on any mistake that I make, especially a "falsehood"... YOU, however, just like FDjake, made the assertion that I told a "falsehood" and after I PROVED it to you using links to threads that were written LAST YEAR and you YOURSELF responded to, you still want to perpetuate this... 

"Nothing I send you will matter though because you only accept answers that suit you."

That is because you DO NOT have anthing to send on this issue Christopher...  and you know it...

I gave you multiple opportunities to make this right in PM, this will get worse if you do not retract what you said...  All I am looking for is a simple apology and/or retraction...  this is basic, what would you tell your kid to do...

« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:52:56 pm by PositiveOutlook »

Offline christopher w

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #178 on: June 11, 2009, 03:52:28 pm »
Positive,

I am perpetuating nothing. I merely pointed out that you are splitting hairs on a subject. I have done nothing wrong. I explained to you where my information came from. I have done nothing wrong. Feel free to do your own research.
Christopher W
C-214.923.5781

PositiveOutlook

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Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2009, 03:56:00 pm »
You want me to do research on the WRONG information you provided?   :rolleyes

By you not mkaing this right here PUBLICLY in the same forum you made the assertion of my "falsehood", you ARE perpetuating it by leaving a FALSE impression out there.... As I told you in PM, I can't believe your irrationaility on this...  just apologize or retract...

 




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