most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.

[Hoosier4life2005]

The war on drugs is completley failing, its time to end it.  Its not worth the taxpayers dollar.

 Just last night, I was with 2 of my friends and we were sitting around a camp fire, and we had weed. My friends got it very very very easily.  Were not experts at sneaking around the cops either, it was so so so easy to get, and could get MUCH MUCH MUCH more RIGHT NOW if we wanted too, from more than one dealer.

Of course, I dont get into this stuff because it does "demotivate" you.  However, if I decide to smoke weed, I dont think its worth everybody spending their money on if I want to ruin my life.  Its my choice.

Sitting around being stoned is not my idea of a life.

Having said that, we can't always protect people from themselves--that's being a Nanny State. Some do become dependent on it, but the vast majority of people use it briefly in high school or college and then walk away from it, or use it once in a blue moon. From what I've heard, heavy alcohol or cocaine use depletes dopamine levels in the brain--i.e.  you have less ability to experience pleasure without use those drugs. Much more addictive.

[Hoosier4life2005]

PositiveOutlook,

How does somebody smoking pot, as long as their not driving, interfere with life or liberty.  Its just like alchohol. If weed should be banned, than alchohol should be too.

[Hooch]

No, I've already said that incarceration doesn't make sense for casual users (unless they are caught driving or committing a crime while using it), but the police aren't going into to peoples homes to find them smoking a joint,

What's the point? Who cares if they are smoking it in their house?

they are recovering it from busting them while driving under the influence...

And I agree, they shouldn't be driving under the influence of marajuana. But finding it in the car and not being under the influence of it are two different things.

I don't understand the relavence of taking too many vitamins vs. smoking marijuana... nobody sits around popping vitamins for fun or to get high... too much water can kill you also...

And who cares that people are sitting around smoking marijuana to get high? That is just as relevant as sitting around drinking too much water.

Divers and snorklers aren't holding their breath with hot smoke (making the capillaries expand absorb to go into the bloodstream) in their lungs... if the divers had too much oxygen, it could also be fatal...

Divers and hyperinflation of their lungs. http://www.erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/4/1113

Sorry but capillaries absorb what is in your lungs hot or not.


"the cannabis smokers experienced coughing when when they inhaled too much at one time"
That's known as your immune system rejecting what you are putting into it...

I would love to see the research on that.

Drunk drivers are severey punished... loss of license, large fines, manadatory treatment, incarceration.... much more than those caught with a few joints...

What state are you in? Driving under the influence of marijuana in every state I have lived in has the exact same punishments as alcohol.

And when kids watch you do this... what message does that send? 

It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be abuse of any drug, but along with it comes consequences...

Live a little, will ya?

[HoldAndBuy]

PositiveOutlook,
I don't think anyone here is defending stoned driving, or any other negligent behavior that results from pot use. Have you ever met a serious pothead? They drive stoned all the time now, I don't know that legalizing it is going to make that better or worse. If the police want to throw the book at impaired drivers, whether it be pot or anything else, I'm all for that.
As for dopamine I'm pretty sure that pot acts on a different receptor site in the brain than alcohol, etc.

[PositiveOutlook]

"And who cares that people are sitting around smoking marijuana to get high? "

I don't care per se... I don't go around checking to see if they are... but the same can be said for cocaine, heroin, etc... 

Ironically, it is during economic bad times when abuse occurs the most, when we NEED people to be in their right mind AND motivated...


"How does somebody smoking pot, as long as their not driving, interfere with life or liberty."

Problem is that they do drive under the influence while it's ILLEGAL now...


"Its just like alchohol. If weed should be banned, than alchohol should be too."

Then so should cocaine, heroin, etc...  I give my kids a sip of wine during Christmas for a toast (although they usually leave it, as they don't like it), but I would not give them a joint, or a snort or needle...  you don't see alot of people going around at social events that involve kids toking on a dubie, or snorting a line or shooting up...  but they do have a drink, which is more acceptable...

Alot of this goes to muddying the message to kids...  if you can smoke pot, why not the others?...  if they were "wrong" about pot, maybe they are "wrong" about all the others...  experience and the high costs of rehab and healthcare tell us different...


"Sorry but capillaries absorb what is in your lungs hot or not. "

Exactly my point... longer holding of smoke in your lungs, the more absortion of the carcinogen whether hot or not... when you heat something up it expands (capillaries)...



"What state are you in? Driving under the influence of marijuana in every state I have lived in has the exact same punishments as alcohol"

That could be, and if it is the case, that is a good thing...


"It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer."

Then there should be no problem with doing cocaine and other drugs in front of kids...


"Have you ever met a serious pothead?"

Abosolutely... and IMHO, a great example of WHY it should remain illegal...


"Live a little, will ya?"

Because I don't do drugs, I'm not living a little...     I do... but I don't need drugs to live a little...  life has SO MANY other ways to enjoy it that are MUCH more fulfilling... but to each his own... as long as it legal... 

[Hooch]

 I give my kids a sip of wine during Christmas for a toast (although they usually leave it, as they don't like it), but I would not give them a joint, or a snort or needle...

And you do this because you are controlling their dosage. You wouldn't give them an entire bottle. Point made. A snort of coke or 1 puff of marijuana would be equivalent to a bottle of wine. They would feel the effects. What you give them does not make them feel the effects and you need to modify your statement to compare the two apples to apples.


Alot of this goes to muddying the message to kids...  if you can smoke pot, why not the others?...

Same muddied message as alcohol.

if they were "wrong" about pot, maybe they are "wrong" about all the others...

You wouldn't have to position the legalization of marijuana as being "wrong" about it. Do you think that how they positioned alcohol when they ended prohibition?

Exactly my point... longer holding of smoke in your lungs, the more absortion of the carcinogen whether hot or not... when you heat something up it expands (capillaries)...

Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone? Maybe we do a don't hold it in and smoke it like a cigarette campaign  Anyways 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day would be considered an EXTREMELY light smoker.

"It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer."
Then there should be no problem with doing cocaine and other drugs in front of kids...

Doing something deemed as not physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health is much different than shooting up around your kids. You can't even compare the two. But you're trying to.

"Have you ever met a serious pothead?"
Abosolutely... and IMHO, a great example of WHY it should remain illegal...


So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting.

"Live a little, will ya?"
Because I don't do drugs, I'm not living a little...   rolleyes  I do... but I don't need drugs to live a little...  life has SO MANY other ways to enjoy it that are MUCH more fulfilling... but to each his own... as long as it legal...  biggrin

I should have said, let others live a little. Victimless crimes are absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to do something to their own body they should be able to do so as long as others are not being harmed. I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that.

How about those people who can't get laid for some reason or another and they want a prostitute? Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups.

The government needs to back the F**K up and get out of peoples lives. Not a single one of us were put on this earth by God to be controlled by a small group of very powerful individuals. I know that is not what God had in mind for me.

[Hoosier4life2005]

100% agreed Hooch. 

I give my kids a sip of wine during Christmas for a toast (although they usually leave it, as they don't like it), but I would not give them a joint, or a snort or needle...

And you do this because you are controlling their dosage. You wouldn't give them an entire bottle. Point made. A snort of coke or 1 puff of marijuana would be equivalent to a bottle of wine. They would feel the effects. What you give them does not make them feel the effects and you need to modify your statement to compare the two apples to apples.


Alot of this goes to muddying the message to kids...  if you can smoke pot, why not the others?...

Same muddied message as alcohol.

if they were "wrong" about pot, maybe they are "wrong" about all the others...

You wouldn't have to position the legalization of marijuana as being "wrong" about it. Do you think that how they positioned alcohol when they ended prohibition?

Exactly my point... longer holding of smoke in your lungs, the more absortion of the carcinogen whether hot or not... when you heat something up it expands (capillaries)...

Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone? Maybe we do a don't hold it in and smoke it like a cigarette campaign  Anyways 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day would be considered an EXTREMELY light smoker.

"It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer."
Then there should be no problem with doing cocaine and other drugs in front of kids...

Doing something deemed as not physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health is much different than shooting up around your kids. You can't even compare the two. But you're trying to.

"Have you ever met a serious pothead?"
Abosolutely... and IMHO, a great example of WHY it should remain illegal...


So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting.

"Live a little, will ya?"
Because I don't do drugs, I'm not living a little...   rolleyes  I do... but I don't need drugs to live a little...  life has SO MANY other ways to enjoy it that are MUCH more fulfilling... but to each his own... as long as it legal...  biggrin

I should have said, let others live a little. Victimless crimes are absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to do something to their own body they should be able to do so as long as others are not being harmed. I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that.

How about those people who can't get laid for some reason or another and they want a prostitute? Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups.

The government needs to back the F**K up and get out of peoples lives. Not a single one of us were put on this earth by God to be controlled by a small group of very powerful individuals. I know that is not what God had in mind for me.

[PositiveOutlook]

"Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone?"

Hooch, you read this wrong, smoking one "joint caused DAMAGE EQUIVALENT to smoking 2.5 to five cigarettes in rapid succession." Read the article again...

"What you give them does not make them feel the effects and you need to modify your statement to compare the two apples to apples. "

My point is that they are not apples to apples...  you have wine, beer, mixed drinks, and while they all contain alcholhol, they are not specifically consumed to get a high... the same is not true of marijuana... that is it's specific intent...

"Doing something deemed as not physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health is much different than shooting up around your kids. You can't even compare the two. But you're trying to."

If you ask a kid if someone is smoking pot, or snorting cocaine or shooting up heroin, what are they doing?  Drugs... marijuana is a drug...  If you ask them if someone is drinking the response is not the same...They are drinking... different association... thereby, MUCH more chance of muddying the message...

but the fact that it is not as "physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health", was not the point you all were making... it was that it was in private... and my point is that if you remove the illegal status for this reason, you have no reason NOT to for the other more potent drugs... it's their body, right?

"So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting."

Those who get hooked/addicted on it... no, you won't stop them... they put the fact that they can be incarcerated aside as well as other reason and will do it no matter the consequence... they usually also combine this with alcholhol... and that's the point... by it being illegal it diminishes those who may be prone to addiction from coming in contact to it DUE to it's illegality thereby dimishing the addictive rate...  You open it up to a wider audience by making it legal, you also expand the addicted class, WHICH DOES COST US MONEY... You are not disputing that are you?

" I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that. "

In that case, the only person you are affecting is you...  but the person who is impaired when driving and KILLS or injures someone else goes beyond themselves, whether you wear a seatbelt or not...

"Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. "

Because it costs others more money to treat the deseases they do get...

"And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups."

And that would stop the ones WITH the deseases to start obeying the law?  If they are involved in abusing their bodies in such a way by choice, they certainly aren't going to stop because they failed a test...  Thereby, those who participate in this instead of developing real relationships remain exposed to desease risks...

There is also another flaw to the health check-ups... who pays?  If they are responsible themselves, who is going to police it at additional cost to the taxpayers?  And if they fail the test, is not the test easily forged?  Another agency would have to be developed just to enforce it... just what we need... now, imagine it on a national level...

"I should have said, let others live a little."

Weird definition of living, but to each his own.... as long as it's legal...   

[Hooch]

"Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone?"
Hooch, you read this wrong, smoking one "joint caused DAMAGE EQUIVALENT to smoking 2.5 to five cigarettes in rapid succession." Read the article again...

And....... chain-smoking 2.5-5 cigarettes does not cause damage therefore this statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a desperate attempt to make it out like smoking a joint causes immediate damage to a person. I don't smoke tobacco now but years ago did. And I have chain-smoked cigarettes.... And there is nothing wrong with me or anyone who has. Smoking tobacco "sometimes" causes problems over MANY years of continuous use. Just like the abuse of anything does, including the abuse of FOOD which happens to be one of my only vices,,, well except the liqueur,,,,,, and the women.

My point is that they are not apples to apples...  you have wine, beer, mixed drinks, and while they all contain alcholhol, they are not specifically consumed to get a high... the same is not true of marijuana... that is it's specific intent...


So consuming alcohol to get a high should be illegal,huh? Come on, relax a little bit Positive. Just because you don't like to tie one on from time to time doesn't make it right to make it illegal. Hold your horses there partner.

If you ask a kid if someone is smoking pot, or snorting cocaine or shooting up heroin, what are they doing?  Drugs... marijuana is a drug...  If you ask them if someone is drinking the response is not the same...They are drinking... different association... thereby, MUCH more chance of muddying the message...


And if marijuana was legal... And you ask them what that person is doing they say marijuana. There is only one reason today that they would say drugs and I think you know that it is due to the brainwashing they get from school teachers and the police man on show and tell day. The first year of legalization they would say that drug marajuana that they found to not be dangerous like the bad drugs are.

but the fact that it is not as "physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health", was not the point you all were making... it was that it was in private... and my point is that if you remove the illegal status for this reason, you have no reason NOT to for the other more potent drugs... it's their body, right?

I never made a point that people should use marijuana in private. If legalized I support the use of marijuana in bars (with designated drivers) on the street (as long as you are not bothering others) in their house, and where ever they want to do it. Just not being under the influence during times of work or driving. Then maybe I could get some happy little complacent workers that will keep their jobs for the next 20 years with no aspirations of raises or desires to politically battle within in attempts to steal each others jobs.

And, most I already know,,, do not agree with my standpoint on this but I do also agree with the legalization of any other drug that does not create victims. If a drug like crack or heroin or crystal meth causes thiefs which victimize others in armed robberies or murders than I disagree with it's legalization. That is where I draw the line. If the drug is going to change a person through addiction into a criminal therefore creating many victims than I want it to remain illegal. If it creates a few victims like alcohol and bar fights do I have no problem with it. You can choose not to hang out at bars if you wish to avoid that type of scene.

Drugs that don't create that many victims but can be avoided if you wish to do so - Alcohol, marijuana, acid and other hallucinogens, extacy.
Drugs I am not sure of but I don't THINK cause many victims - Opium, Cocaine
Drugs that turn people into armed robbers and murders when deeply addictied - heroin, crystal meth, crack.

"So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting."
Those who get hooked/addicted on it... no, you won't stop them... they put the fact that they can be incarcerated aside as well as other reason and will do it no matter the consequence...


Alcohol is "physically" addictive. Marijuana and hallucinogens are NOT physically addictive. It is questionable whether marijuana can be mentally addictive. This is why it is so easy for people to stop these drugs. Once an alcoholic though, it is very hard to stop, just like tobacco which is also physically addictive. So please explain how they are going to get "hooked" on marijuana or acid. And if they did, what is the point if it is legal. My mom is "hooked" on the drug caffeine and has to have 1 coffee in the morning each and every day to fully feel normal. I know lots of people who are, but it is not negatively effecting their lives with exception of the control that the addiction has on you.

by it being illegal it diminishes those who may be prone to addiction from coming in contact to it DUE to it's illegality thereby dimishing the addictive rate...

Like I said, they can't get addicted to marijuana or acid. And even if they could who cares, they aren't harming anyone but themselves and with marijuana in particular they aren't even doing that with exception of their lack of drive in life. Us A type personalities like to be on the top but everyone is not that way. And everyone can not be on the top.

You open it up to a wider audience by making it legal, you also expand the addicted class, WHICH DOES COST US MONEY... You are not disputing that are you?

I AM disputing how much money you think non addicted marijuana users would cause the tax payer. Actually they would make tremendous amounts of money for the tax payer via tax revenue just like alcohol does.

I think you are one of those people who believe the common misconception that the obese and tobacco users are costing insurance companies more cash than the average Joe does.  Therefore this expense gets passed on to the rest of the population. This is INCORRECT. It costs significantly more money to care for a person long term and pay for their long death as they age than it does for someone who kicks it 10 or 20 years before they get to that stage of needing a nursing home and 24 hr care. This is another one of those frauds like the "man made global warming scam" is.

" I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that. "
In that case, the only person you are affecting is you...  but the person who is impaired when driving and KILLS or injures someone else goes beyond themselves, whether you wear a seatbelt or not...

Why do you keep going back to driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol? No one that I know says that is something we should legalize. We aren't even talking about that. Tell me how using marijuana in a legal and responsible way causes victims.

"Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. "
Because it costs others more money to treat the deseases they do get...

Again, go to my previous point. It only causes the tax payer money if they live a long healthy life.  And taxation of prostutution instead of them having to keep it under the table would contribute greatly to our economy. Also done in a responsible way like Nevada does, the medical community would benefit from frequent visits and the "john" would benefit from not contracting diseases if they did something stupid like not wearing protection. I would like for you to explain to me with examples of how prostitution is hurting Nevada and Canada tax payers. If you can't do so than your argument is completely irrelevant and it should be legalized right away.

"And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups."
And that would stop the ones WITH the deseases to start obeying the law?  If they are involved in abusing their bodies in such a way by choice, they certainly aren't going to stop because they failed a test... 

I agree that they won't stop, but WHAT guy would look for a hoe without a valid updated health card? The prostitutes without a clean bill of health wouldn't get much work if you were given a choice between one that has verification and one who doesn't. There is not that choice now therefore it will always remain a major risky behavior as long as the laws remain the same. Why do you not support this minimization of risk and the significantly reduced spread of sexually transmitted diseases? Why do you wish that it continue under the table in such a dirty manor? Are you one of the Americans that "sex" is a bigtime taboo thing?

Thereby, those who participate in this instead of developing real relationships remain exposed to desease risks...

What makes you think that every single person out there wants to have a longterm relationship with someone. Just because you like your longterm relationship with your wife doesn't mean that others want to follow your path. 50% of marriages end in divorce. Those who have been through a divorce don't necessarily want to go through another one after getting cleaned out for half of their assets. But that is besides the point. Simply said, some people want a no strings attached girl.

There are also people out there that have some sort of problem and they are destined to never be laid in their whole entire life. A retard for example or someone who is terribly ugly. Or a guy who has some severe personality defect and just doesn't seem to click well with others. Not necessarily a bad person, just an odd ball. So you are telling me that those people don't deserve to be able to get laid and if they do they should be criminals for doing so? Give me a break. Loosen up a little Mr. Stuffy.

There is also another flaw to the health check-ups... who pays? 

All people don't pay the same health insurance premiums Positive. The girl pays via higher premiums. It is her business expense. Or the insurance company doesn't cover it and she pays cash to be tested every week. It is a business expense, not an expense to the tax payer.

If they are responsible themselves, who is going to police it at additional cost to the taxpayers?

No need to police it with health cards. The "Johns" police it. If the hoe doesn't have a valid and updated card she won't get work when given the choice of someone clean vs someone who is not. That will put the dirty prostitutes out of business and force them to do some other line of work.

And if they fail the test, is not the test easily forged?

Anything can be forged but as you know it can be made not easy to do so just like the dollar bill and have substantial punishment for forgeries. There are other ways as well, where you are able to look up secure records that are not in possession of the prostitute. Many things that could be done and I am not sure exactly how Nevada and Canada do it but I haven't heard any problems and I haven't heard it is strangling the tax payer even in a country like Canada where everyone has government run health care. I assure you if it was the government of Canada would stop it.

Another agency would have to be developed just to enforce it... just what we need... now, imagine it on a national level...

As I said, hoes that have no updated clean bill of health get no work when the "john" is given a choice of clean or possibly dirty.

[HoldAndBuy]

A few years ago they identified a "lung cancer gene" that some people have that makes them more susceptible. It's sort of a crapshoot. We can all agree I think that smoking anything isn't very good for you.

P.O., I still don't think pot is as addictive as you claim.  I've met some people who who were addicted to prescription painkillers, that's a nightmare to get off of, weeks of tapering and withdrawl symptoms, not even on the same planet as weed in terms of addiction.

[JCarr]

u just a hater mi boi obama knowz wuts he doin and yur just jelous dat he guna gimme paycheks in duh mail. mabe u can get sum 2 if you ask. (typical obamalite)



seriously though, is that how many there are now?!

 
Are you kidding me? Is this how you perceive supporters of Obama? Unbelievable!!!!!!!

[propertymanager]

Just last night, I was with 2 of my friends and we were sitting around a camp fire, and we had weed. My friends got it very very very easily.  Were not experts at sneaking around the cops either, it was so so so easy to get, and could get MUCH MUCH MUCH more RIGHT NOW if we wanted too, from more than one dealer.

That's disappointing.

Of course, I dont get into this stuff because it does "demotivate" you.  However, if I decide to smoke weed, I dont think its worth everybody spending their money on if I want to ruin my life.  Its my choice.

I agree 100% with that.  In fact, I would be in favor of legalizing all drugs, taxing it, building a LOT more prisons with the proceeds, and greatly increasing the punishment for property and violent crimes.  Then, when the druggie breaks into someone's house to steal money for drugs, we'd throw them into prison for the next 20 or 30 years!  Get this scum off the streets and into prisons (less all the frills) and we might start to improve the country.  Executing violent criminals (by the thousands) would also be a good thing.

Are you kidding me? Is this how you perceive supporters of Obama? Unbelievable!!!!!!!

Yes - minus the ebonics.  This isn't a race issue, but it sure as heck IS an issue of socialism!  Obama's supporters want a handout - simple as that!

Mike

[JCarr]

And how do you know this? Your blanket statement is utterly ridiculous....

And the poster who used Ebonics DEFINTELY meant it...which is an insult....

[propertymanager]

And how do you know this? Your blanket statement is utterly ridiculous..

..

No, it's not ridiculous, it's absolutely true.  People who voted for Obama want a handout - it really is that simple.  Some want more welfare (which he's already delivered).  Some want a handout to the car companies that the unions have already destroyed.  Some want "free" healthcare, meaning that they want me to pay their healthcare for them.  Yes - they want handouts!

Mike

[Hooch]

100% agreed. They want handouts.

Please explain how they don't JCarr.