the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishediowner,

"You like to regurgitate questions and chew them up again!"

No, I only REPEAT questions that have NOT been answered...  let's try this directly again with this the only question on this post, as you totally AVOIDED and DID NOT answer any of the questions on abortion... this has become your MO...  let's keep it simple...

"The thing that absolutely astounds me is that you say you would sit on your hands and not waterboard someone who was standing in the way of your INNOCENT child being in mortal danger (I never said "help" them as you try to mischaracterize it to make it more palataple, I specifically said - "and one of them was in mortal danger, and the only way to save them was to get information from someone")?  You would not exhaust ALL ways to get this information?  You mean you are willing to sacrifice your INNOCENT child for the terrorist?"

Let's see if we can get an answer this time...

[furnishedowner]

Okay, let's say my daughter, Little Nell, is tied to the railroad tracks and I hear the distant train coming! But I don't know exactly where on the tracks she is!

Now I will personally dash over to that black-robed terrorist who is gleefully chuckling and wrap MY HANDS around his throat until he chokes out, "Over there!"

Is that good enough for you?

But for terrorists, or murder suspects, or other evil doers I would let TRAINED INTERROGATORS interrogate. Heck, they could even use truth serum, sodium pentothal if that were sanctioned. But proven methods--good cop, bad cop, speaking in their native language, time, repeated questioning, "the Stockholm Syndrome", amnesty--there are scores of techniques that yield intelligence that can be corroborated. Without resorting to the dubious intelligence gleaned from hurting someone grevously.

Check out the movie "Rendition". Good movie, had the spiderman actor and a couple of other famous actors in it. A true story of a Canadian chemical engineer who happened to get confused with someone else. Very unsettling what could happen to an innocent airline traveler. Like you or me. Don't forget that the far right is on government watch lists. These are our freedoms we are talking about.

Freedom from torture is number one in my opinion. That's why I send money to the ACLU every year. I don't like ALL of their cases that they defend. They do defend even scumbags whose rights have been violated. But the idea of defending those rights is why I send them those checks.

Furnishedowner

[Hoosier4life2005]

Amnesty?  Now were negotiating with terrorists?  So they can live another day, plotting against us?  No thanks.

And your answer was very... dodgy. 


How about you answer the direct question. 

Would you waterboard somebody... to save your daughter?

Big difference between that, and killing the person who tied your daughter up to a railroad track.

Okay, let's say my daughter, Little Nell, is tied to the railroad tracks and I hear the distant train coming! But I don't know exactly where on the tracks she is!

Now I will personally dash over to that black-robed terrorist who is gleefully chuckling and wrap MY HANDS around his throat until he chokes out, "Over there!"

Is that good enough for you?

But for terrorists, or murder suspects, or other evil doers I would let TRAINED INTERROGATORS interrogate. Heck, they could even use truth serum, sodium pentothal if that were sanctioned. But proven methods--good cop, bad cop, speaking in their native language, time, repeated questioning, "the Stockholm Syndrome", amnesty--there are scores of techniques that yield intelligence that can be corroborated. Without resorting to the dubious intelligence gleaned from hurting someone grevously.

Check out the movie "Rendition". Good movie, had the spiderman actor and a couple of other famous actors in it. A true story of a Canadian chemical engineer who happened to get confused with someone else. Very unsettling what could happen to an innocent airline traveler. Like you or me. Don't forget that the far right is on government watch lists. These are our freedoms we are talking about.

Freedom from torture is number one in my opinion. That's why I send money to the ACLU every year. I don't like ALL of their cases that they defend. They do defend even scumbags whose rights have been violated. But the idea of defending those rights is why I send them those checks.

Furnishedowner

[jfpen]

Okay, let's say my daughter, Little Nell, is tied to the railroad tracks and I hear the distant train coming! But I don't know exactly where on the tracks she is!

Now I will personally dash over to that black-robed terrorist who is gleefully chuckling and wrap MY HANDS around his throat until he chokes out, "Over there!"

Is that good enough for you?

But for terrorists, or murder suspects, or other evil doers I would let TRAINED INTERROGATORS interrogate. Heck, they could even use truth serum, sodium pentothal if that were sanctioned. But proven methods--good cop, bad cop, speaking in their native language, time, repeated questioning, "the Stockholm Syndrome", amnesty--there are scores of techniques that yield intelligence that can be corroborated. Without resorting to the dubious intelligence gleaned from hurting someone grevously.

Check out the movie "Rendition". Good movie, had the spiderman actor and a couple of other famous actors in it. A true story of a Canadian chemical engineer who happened to get confused with someone else. Very unsettling what could happen to an innocent airline traveler. Like you or me. Don't forget that the far right is on government watch lists. These are our freedoms we are talking about.

Freedom from torture is number one in my opinion. That's why I send money to the ACLU every year. I don't like ALL of their cases that they defend. They do defend even scumbags whose rights have been violated. But the idea of defending those rights is why I send them those checks.

Furnishedowner

Furnishedowner,
                     
                     I'm very surprised that you'd go to such extreme measures to save the life of your daughter but won't permit the same behavior by others to save the lives of their families or mine.
 
A fact to ponder:
There have been drugs since the development of "Sodium Pentothal" that are more effective as "truth serums". When used, they are extremely effective at letting investigators get to the truth. Unfortunately, they leave the captor with serious permanent brain damage. Remembering that these people consider it an honor to die in the process of killing Americans,  I think that some temporary discomfort delivered in the form of a simulated drowning that leaves the captor functional is a bit more humane than creating non-functional vegetables out of them.

The far right is on government watch lists. I hope that the ACLU is protecting their rights as they protect rights which don't belong to our enemies. Remember, Fascism is coming on strong from far Left. Don't be so blind as not to see it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

JP

[furnishedowner]

Torture is "temporary discomfort"?!

Let's listen to John McCain on this one.

Furnishedowner

[sellnbama]

Furnished,
I wonder what daniel pearl would consider "torture" of those who cut his head off??And you were right on obama's grandmothers bit,only that the point was OBAMA CALLED HER A "TYPICAL WHITE PERSON"!!!!!!!!!!!But I guess you did'nt catch that angle. "Hope" is'nt a plan and "change"really can mean anything,almost like the CREATE OR SAVE thousands of jobs(its impossible to prove this!!!).Face it the media's favorite person is letting america fail,PERIOD!!!   

[jfpen]

Torture is "temporary discomfort"?!

Let's listen to John McCain on this one.

Furnishedowner

Waterboarding is temporary discomfort. Your previous suggestion ruins a life permanently. 

JP

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"Now I will personally dash over to that black-robed terrorist who is gleefully chuckling and wrap MY HANDS around his throat until he chokes out, "Over there!"

First off, I want to applaud you for what was an obviously hard thing for you to come to terms with...  I also assume that had the terrorist in your example NOT answered you with your hands wrapped around his throat, and instead said “Soon, you will know", like Khalid Sheik Mohammed did, that you indeed would have done everything in your power to get that information out of him, INCLUDING waterboarding him...  If I am wrong, correct me, but I don't believe I am...

That said, it starts to zero-in on the challenge that these people had to deal with... we had just lost over 3000 souls, and Osama had not only announced that more was on the way, but that he was actively going after chemical and biological weapons, and it was a FOREGONE CONCLUSION that we would be attacked again, it was just a matter of when and where.  in spite of this, Bush/CIA er al KEPT US SAFE, with the waterboarding of these three, yes, three terrorists being a key reason...

Look at this article...
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

From the article... "In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason WHY al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”

Now imagine if the CIA did NOT waterboard Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was the mastermind behind 9/11, to get him to give up the info once waterboarded regarding the "second-wave" (another 9/11 type attack), and that they were successful in this second-wave, and it came to light that Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was in our hands, HAD this information but we did not due EVERYTHING possible to get it from him... DO you think the fact that MORE innocent people into the hundreds and possibly thousands dying under this circumstance would have been in any way acceptable by saying = "I'm sorry, we couldn't waterboard him to get the information... it's torture"... 

Now imagine someone stopping you from putting your hands around the neck of the terrorist in your example and said - "no, we can't do that... it's torture and it's not what America is about"...   Your reaction would most likely be the same as those would have lost THEIR family and friends in the "second-wave"....   are you insane?...

So I guess waterboarding, to quote liberals on abortion (which 100% of the time takes the life of the innocent through methods that if applied to adults would actually BE torture resulting in death), should be "safe, legal and rare"...

Something to consider...

[Hooch]

Furnishedowner,

I am shocked that you are saying that murdering a poor little baby that managed to survive a botched abortion is not "evil". Wow, what is the world coming to?

I am genuinely curious if we are being effected by the pcb's in plastic leaching into our food when it is heated in the microwave or coffee maker. It seems that there is a large group of people who have lost touch with both reason and logic and some of the deep morals and values that used to be so prevalent in Americans in general.

You should rent this movie for a balanced perspective of the issue at hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b6h0lsiQcw

I at one point was indifferent to the abortion issue and was one of the few conservatives who were pro abortion. I changed my mind from this movie.

[PositiveOutlook]

BTW, the definition of torture as put out by the UN et al would make all inmates in prison considered to be suffering torture according to their standard...

Just a thought....

[JCarr]

Question for the group. (im probably making a mistake by even posting lol)

Would you approve waterboarding as a intergoation tactic used by your local police?

[jfpen]

Furnishedowner,

I am shocked that you are saying that murdering a poor little baby that managed to survive a botched abortion is not "evil". Wow, what is the world coming to?

I am genuinely curious if we are being effected by the pcb's in plastic leaching into our food when it is heated in the microwave or coffee maker. It seems that there is a large group of people who have lost touch with both reason and logic and some of the deep morals and values that used to be so prevalent in Americans in general.

You should rent this movie for a balanced perspective of the issue at hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b6h0lsiQcw

I at one point was indifferent to the abortion issue and was one of the few conservatives who were pro abortion. I changed my mind from this movie.

Hooch,
         What we are seeing now is reflective of the values of an overly materialistic population with the scarcity mentality. The value of a life is now readily measured in dollars/euros and valued by that lives' current or potential future economic output. In other words, the viability of life is based on the convenience of the living. Maybe someday people transcend the divisiveness of gender, race, religion etc. and consider the costs of this mentality to humanity.

JP

[sellnbama]

jcarr,

If the standards were the same as they used paramedic present,trained person doing it,proof that this person knows something of value,etc.Also if was in effort to save lives,yes I would.How can waterboarding be compared to what some of these people have done and still will do to americans?Why would anyone think that a person who blows theirself up just to kill you would now not do that since we don't waterboard?So who's really safer by stopping it?Mr smooth(aka obama)will still have this done it's called rendition,clinton done it during his years.He is a good actor though,he must be a power grabber cause he could make more$$ in hollywood.   

[PositiveOutlook]

Jcarr,

The CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding, which is why it was done on only three of the terrorists...
 
From the article posted above (in Reply #37)... "It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘(o)ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack."


I don't think I would support civilians being waterboarded, as citizens of the US are innocent until proven guilty and that right is protected under law.   That being said, sleep deprivation, isolation (i.e. - the hole), submission with battons or tazers, rubber bullets, strip searches, nutra-loaf, straight-jackets, etc. are all used on inmates, and I guess according to the UN's definition of torture these would ALSO be considered torture and the penal system is guilty of war crimes...   

Terrorists, another matter altogether... no US citizen rights, no country affiliation, no Geneva coverage (they don't follow or subscribe to it), etc...

So kinda not really applicable...

Even though OBAMA has maintained FOR HIMSELF the right to use it, along with Military Tribunals, CONTINUING the Bush policy... let's hope he hasn't hamstrung himself by politicizing it which could lead to him to avoid using it in the appropriate scenerio like another KSM, making us ALL, dem, rep, lib, conervative, moderate less safe...

[Hooch]

the viability of life is based on the convenience of the living. Maybe someday people transcend the divisiveness of gender, race, religion etc. and consider the costs of this mentality to humanity.

JP

These are very good points JP!


Positive,

Regarding the terrorists, I can not believe that we have such tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding to the degree that we have only used it on 3 of the dirty bastards. I wish waterboarding on all Confirmed terrorists. Each and every single one of them.

However I do not wish that waterboarding is used on our own civilians. With absolute confirmation of a hanus crime like forced sodomy of a child, murder with malice, etc I would prefer that we leave out any and all torture and just kill them with a 10¢ bullet. Much less money than Mr. Sparky or lethal injection and way better than paying 50K a year to house and feed them.

Well, I don't know. Maybe a child molester would be better off getting gang raped prior to murder so they can experience the whole thing the exact way the innocent child did before he killed them.

Maybe if one of these dirty politicians get caught taking bribe money to vote for something that is against the will of the people we could chop a hand or two off instead of the death penalty for treason.

Just thoughts.