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Author Topic: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?  (Read 41257 times)

Offline Hoosier4life2005

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 07:56:36 pm »
Dang. It's like talking to rabid dogs! That's why I usually just stick to the real estate forums. Oh well...

You hard-liners are on the fringe. You can all agree with each other that President Obama is a racist (!), a terrorist and supports infanticide. Sorry, but that is all just plain wacky. It is as if you are from some other extreme planet.

I, and the MAJORITY of Americans chose Obama because he appeared to be the best of the bunch. Remember, this is a democracy, or tries to be, and the MAJORITY rules.  We voted. I voted. You probably all voted.

Now let's get behind this smart, well-spoken man and let him have his 4 years. He won the election! He's doing a hell of a good job in extremely difficult times. If something doesn't seem to work, he tries something else. The MAJORITY of the country agrees with me on this.

As for waterboarding, hell no, it should not be used and I could not support the use of torture. Don't you get it? Torture makes the victim say ANYTHING to make it stop. Didn't any of you watch the Congressional hearings where the government interrogator testified that he sent numerous memos to the Bush administration decrying the use of waterboarding as ineffective? That no new valid information was gathered? That half the information gleaned was bogus and made up just to GET THEM TO STOP? That regular interrogations had already proven effective? That no one in the Bush administration listened?

So no, I could NOT support the use of waterboarding to "help" my daughter, my son, or anyone else. It is medieval, primitive, demeaning to our country. And ineffective.

If we Americans torture members of other religions, nationalities, or extremist groups, WE CAN EXPECT THEM TO TORTURE CAPTURED AMERICANS. We can not stop crazy extremists from beheading people, they also behead their own in-country enemies. But we can stop the horrible international PR about American atrocities that are inflaming every radical everywhere.

If we are civilized, we have to take the high road here. This will make you all froth at the mouth even more, but former Vice President Cheney and some others should be tried as war criminals in my opinion. He sanctioned TORTURE IN THE NAME OF THE UNITED STATES. MY COUNTRY! How dare he!

Above all, that first right. The right for every human being, no matter whom or where or whatever misguided murderous philosophy he may hold...TO BE FREE FROM TORTURE.

Think about it, guys. A lot of you probably go to church every Sunday. How can you reconcile "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You" with torture? Let's get back to being Americans. Not barbarians.

Furnishedowner





First off, America is not a democracy.  It is a Republic, or a INDIRECT democracy.  We respect minority rights.  As in..... all of us (the majority) cant say that you, furnished owner,  have to give up all your wealth?  This would be the majority, picking on a minority.  We do not do this.  Why? Because we respect minority rights (or were supposed to, which we didnt in the case of taking the CEO money away, unconstitutionally)... but im being picky I guess....

Also, freedom from torcher is not the first right all humans have.  The right to life is... which your darling Obama is supporting taking away from millions of babys in the U.S. ....


I do not support torcher, as in whipping or something like that, and im sure none of us do.  But drowing, since you think its torcher... let me just say this.

We dont have to worry about terrorists drowning our troops, because they mutulate and take off our troops heads.. This is not something I make up, it happened to one of my best friends brothers.  So dont make it look like TERRORISTS are doing less than drowning.

I say, Waterboard the piss out of these low life scum, and get information out of them that saves people (your daughter, mine, and many other peoples potential life) and then put them through our court of law, and quickly put a 25 cent bullet in there head). 

Wow, im insane arent I ?  What you all think?
Im Josh Azbell and im 20.  Add me on facebook :)  Im from Indiana.  I am going to be a Real Estate investor.

PositiveOutlook

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2009, 08:08:24 pm »
Furnishedowner,

Look at the recent polls by Gallup and CNN, the majority of American SUPPORT waterboarding, and think it was justified in the case of Bush/CIA...  So WE are with the majority of this, and this is without context in the media...

And you are completely WRONG... the waterboarding of KSM (Kalik Shiek Mohammed) DID yield intelligence and DID save lives... 

GEORGE TENET, CIA Director (DEMOCRACT) - "the “enhanced interrogation” program alone yielded more information than everything gotten from “the FBI, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency PUT TOGETHER.”

MICHAEL HAYDEN, CIA director AFTER waterboarding had been discontinued, writes (with former Attorney General Michael Mukasey) that... “as late as 2006 ... fully HALF OF THE GOVERNMENT'S KNOWLEDGE about the structure and activities of al-Qaeda CAME from those interrogations.”

Even Dennis Blair, OBAMA'S DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, CONCURS that these interrogations yielded “high value information.” [/b] [/i] 

Blair’s predecessor, Mike McConnell, “We have people walking around in this country that are alive today because this process happened.”

So much for the BS that waterboarding does not yield anything..  :rolleyes  it yielded a h*ll of a lot of information....

So, the CIA, the Bush Administration, the DHS, AND the JUSTICE DEPARTMENT signed off on waterboarding...



PositiveOutlook

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2009, 08:10:35 pm »
Furnishedowner,

The thing that absolutely astounds me is that you say you would sit on your hands and not waterboard someone who was standing in the way of your INNOCENT child being in mortal danger (I never said "help" them as you try to mischaracterize it to make it more palataple, I specifically said - "and one of them was in mortal danger, and the only way to save them was to get information from someone")?  You would not exhaust ALL ways to get this information?  You mean you are willing to sacrifice your INNOCENT child for the terrorist? That is some warped logic you have there... 

The Geneva convention applies to regular warfare, and was signed on by other countries, but the terrorists do not belong to any of these country's, are not entitled to Geneva convention protection, and no matter whether or not WE ban "waterboarding" they will absolutely CONTINUE to behead us...  so your logic is flawed...

As far as trying to use the religious principle against us - "How can you reconcile "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You" with torture?" - very simply, we DO NOT behead them when captured just BECAUSE they are who they are... they are SPARED their life when they are captured, and GAIN WEIGHT in captivity...  So we, by definition ALREADY treat them better... so why are you not asking the same questions of the terrorists?  After all, they will NEVER stop beheading, so why the different standard for Americans, using your religous example?

That being said, Furshishedowner...  OBAMA HAS RETAINED THE RIGHT OF WATERBOARDING FOR HIMSELF! 

And you never answered the question about how OBAMA    - "...are you saying that you were are OK with Obama ordering the KILLING of the three pirates to save ONE captain (without trial that you want to provide TERRORISTS), but NOT OK with Bush ordering "waterboarding", not death, with medical people at the ready, which SAVED countless other lives?"




Offline sellnbama

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2009, 10:22:22 pm »
As I said before the zombies that can't see past the well crafted teleprompted speeches will have to see four years of bad decisions to turn on the hollywood actor we now have as president.So while the messiah spends away our childrens future and freedom trying to solve all those evil bush years,we all will just wait along with the zombies to see if any of this will sink into their thick heads as BAD FOR THE COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hooch

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2009, 12:41:36 am »
Furnishedowner,

I am shocked at your radical statements. It is actually you that is fringe but you must not think so because you share the opinion of the government media complex.

"""You hard-liners are on the fringe. You can all agree with each other that President Obama is a racist (!), a terrorist and supports infanticide. Sorry, but that is all just plain wacky. It is as if you are from some other extreme planet."""

It's funny how all of the people here are in agreement but you. But you think that that is a coincidence? Or is it more likely that you are on the fringe?

"""You can all agree with each other that President Obama.....supports infanticide"""

You radical leftists seem to have a hard time actually understanding what Obama is saying. Or maybe you people love him so much that whatever he says negative is blocked out. Ok, I will post it again for you. Now you tell me after listening to this audio, straight out of the horses mouth, that he doesn't support killing babies from a botched abortion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDwNpgIUQc

And here is an angel who survived a botched abortion. Do you really agree with Obama that this beautiful person should have been killed because it would have gone against the original decision to abort her? If you agree with Obama than you are one of the most heartless people I have ever talked to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZVf_o1C2nI
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 12:45:39 am by Hooch »

Offline furnishedowner

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2009, 01:32:22 pm »
There is not a cross-section of people writing on this site. Landlords seem to be way more in the far right camp. I can almost visualize the black capes and handle-bar mustaches like in the old 30's cartoons...although I am one myself.

Pirate story--no comment--I was tied up at work and missed most of that drama. I was glad that it was stopped--piracy can not be tolerated.

I don't think my views are radical leftist, I think I am in the middle, but leaning left. I vote for candidates of both parties if I feel the Republican would do a better job.

The 30-second You Tube clip, taken out of context and the Fox News (Fox News!) do not prove a darn thing. Is this how you get your balanced, well-rounded news? An inflammatory one-sided news clip should just make you say, "Wait, I need to hear more than this biased crap."  Don't believe everything you hear, especially if it comes from a very politicized source.

That's why I like Larry King--he doesn't just spout off a bunch of hot air opinion, instead he INTERVIEWS the actual people so we can hear THEIR words directly.

I read a ton, mostly books and magazines. So no, I am not stuck on the major media as my only source of news. I like PBS because it presents both sides of the issues.  I just finished "Outliers, The Story of Success" by Malcolm Gladwell. I highly recommend it, a great read and it changed how I look at the world. Amazing book. Now I am reading "The Next 100 Years" by George Friedman, a not simplistic look at the future.

So back to the debate--since it was the opinion of the Bush attorney general that "It is not torture if it doesn't cause major organ failure" then pulling out fingernails with pliers should be okay?! Burning with cigarettes should be okay? Tying someone to a board and pouring water into their mouth should be okay? The supposed end justifies the means?

And we should lop off heads because others do it? Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Torture is not okay. Never. Ever. And it does not create intelligence that can be relied on.

As The American Armies advanced into Germany at the end of WWII, the German populace streamed towards them, out of the path of the Russian Armies. The Russians, brutalized themselves by the Nazis, raped, killed and plundered the German civilian population as they advanced towards Berlin.

"Be saved by the Americans," was the reputation America had then. If it were well-known and publicized now that "Americans do not torture. Americans treat captured people civilly" there would be former terrorists coming over to our side with useful intelligence. We could begin to turn the sentiment towards us. Instead the Bush regime has squandered our national image and put our soldiers at great risk.

The abortion debate--again, a medico-legal issue. I believe abortions should be 1st trimester only. Should parents have the right to abort a 16-or 18 week fetus after having an amniocentesis? Should a child with severe mental/physical handicaps that parents cannot handle be aborted at that stage? I sure as heck don't know. It would be a horrible decision to have to make. Would you want your child in one of our under-funded institutions if you couldn't care for it? This is where we the people need to weigh in with our opinions.

But for me, the rights of the woman to have a life trumps the right of fetal cells to continue growing in the first trimester. We have enough child abuse. We have hundreds of kids awaiting adoption in this state alone--no one wants that 10-year-old with a history of fetal alcohol or drug abuse. That's where to spend our energies--not promoting more unwanted babies.

Furnishedowner

Offline HoldAndBuy

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2009, 02:06:12 pm »
What is the proof that Obama is racist? Because he went to that goofy church in Chicago? I'm sure he just went to that church to advance his Chicago political career and establish some kind of roots in that community since he could be seen as a carpetbagger otherwise, being from Hawaii. Calculating politician, yes, racist no.

Offline sellnbama

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2009, 06:29:21 pm »
holdandbuy,
Two words for you -black theology-this is what rev wright preaches(if you wanna call that preaching).Also his wife michelle,do some reading up on this woman its not hard at all to see that she's right there with rev wright.But here again we're supposed to believe its all those around him but not him,right??Come on.I also agree that he's a regular lying politician first and foremost,the sooner his cult figure that out, the better off we'll all be. Also if we are on this site are'nt we trying to make more & help those we can get started in this?So why do any of you support a president who attacks capitalism& prosperity?????!!! 

Offline HoldAndBuy

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2009, 06:55:19 pm »
I have mixed feelings about what Obama, Geither, etc. have done so far with the economy. I don't believe he's a racist and I'm sure he's probably an atheist or agnostic (although he could never admit this), regardless of whether he went to that church for 20 years or not. Notice how he threw Wright under the bus when it was necessary. It's all about posturing, they all do it.
Obama has only been in office a few months. I'm willing to give him a couple of years before I decide how I feel about him. You guys are starting to remind me of those shrill Al Gore supporters back in 2000 who wouldn't give Bush a chance after that whole mess with the election recounts.



holdandbuy,
Two words for you -black theology-this is what rev wright preaches(if you wanna call that preaching).Also his wife michelle,do some reading up on this woman its not hard at all to see that she's right there with rev wright.But here again we're supposed to believe its all those around him but not him,right??Come on.I also agree that he's a regular lying politician first and foremost,the sooner his cult figure that out, the better off we'll all be. Also if we are on this site are'nt we trying to make more & help those we can get started in this?So why do any of you support a president who attacks capitalism& prosperity?????!!! 

Offline Hoosier4life2005

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2009, 08:15:27 pm »
I have mixed feelings about what Obama, Geither, etc. have done so far with the economy. I don't believe he's a racist and I'm sure he's probably an atheist or agnostic (although he could never admit this), regardless of whether he went to that church for 20 years or not. Notice how he threw Wright under the bus when it was necessary. It's all about posturing, they all do it.
Obama has only been in office a few months. I'm willing to give him a couple of years before I decide how I feel about him. You guys are starting to remind me of those shrill Al Gore supporters back in 2000 who wouldn't give Bush a chance after that whole mess with the election recounts.



holdandbuy,
Two words for you -black theology-this is what rev wright preaches(if you wanna call that preaching).Also his wife michelle,do some reading up on this woman its not hard at all to see that she's right there with rev wright.But here again we're supposed to believe its all those around him but not him,right??Come on.I also agree that he's a regular lying politician first and foremost,the sooner his cult figure that out, the better off we'll all be. Also if we are on this site are'nt we trying to make more & help those we can get started in this?So why do any of you support a president who attacks capitalism& prosperity?????!!! 


"My grandmother was a typical white person, she would walk across the street to avoid a black person."  Im paraphrasing, but thats almost word for word on what he said.  If that isnt racism, calling somebody a "typical white person" like that.... then I dont know what is.... Seriously.
Im Josh Azbell and im 20.  Add me on facebook :)  Im from Indiana.  I am going to be a Real Estate investor.

Hooch

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2009, 09:04:56 pm »

Pirate story--no comment--I was tied up at work and missed most of that drama. I was glad that it was stopped--piracy can not be tolerated.

I don't think my views are radical leftist, I think I am in the middle, but leaning left. I vote for candidates of both parties if I feel the Republican would do a better job.

The 30-second You Tube clip, taken out of context and the Fox News (Fox News!) do not prove a darn thing. Is this how you get your balanced, well-rounded news?

I like PBS because it presents both sides of the issues. 

I believe abortions should be 1st trimester only.

Regarding the pirate story where Obama proudly took all credit for murdering 3 pirates but opposes the non murder techniques used. I am not surprised that you refuse to answer the question.

You are radical left but don't know it. I now realize that since you say you switch back and forth in votes that you don't even know what each party even stands for. There are pro life and pro choice republicans and democrats. There are republicans and democrats who want more or less social programs or spending.

There is only one major primary difference between democrats and republicans. Democrats across the board believe in more federal government control. They think the solution to every problem is more government control.

Republicans across the board are anti federal government control. They believe in states rights. This way states and towns can make their own laws and if you don't like them you can leave to another state. This creates competition between states. Big daddy federal government control (which is illegal by the constitution by the way) makes it so if you don't like it, tough, you will have to leave the entire United States to get away from it.

The federal government was put in place for military protection only. They have no constitutional right to make national laws and have slipped their way into doing so by raising taxes to an insane level. The entire federal government was operated in Abe Lincolns days with 5% of the nations paychecks. Look at it now.  Well, they use the excess to force states to pass laws that they want but have no right to impose. For example, seat belt laws. A victimless crime. Well the federal government says to the states, we want you to pass these laws and blow millions of the tax payers dollars a year in promoting the victimless crime. If you don't do what we say we will give you NO highway funds. The same goes for prostitution, illegal marijuana and many other ridicules crimes.

Regarding Fox news, the statement was NOT taken out of context and FOX news is the most balanced news that there is. Only the radical left would say a comment like that.

Proof:
http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6527454/the-drive-in/fox-news-most-balanced-according-to-independent-un/index.html

There was a huge reason why your favorite PBS was not picked. I too watch PBS, but it is to get the opinions from the radical left. PBS talks and talks about how their news is balanced but it is nothing but trickery. Look at the show News Hour with the far left David Brooks and the New York Times conumnist moderate democrat posing as a conservative, Mark Shields.

This is a perfect example of what PBS does. They hire moderate leftists to pose as republicans and even have the gall to have one say he is a Conservative. There Is Not One Single Conservative In America That Thinks That Guy Is A Conservative. He isn't even a republican.

I see you are one of the sheep that Baaaa leeeeeve what they are told by the main stream media. Maybe one day you will listen to conservatives and you will understand where the right stands on issues. Then you will watch Fox News and see where the base Republicans stand. This really shows how far left you actually are if you think Mark Shields is a conservative or PBS is balanced. Instead of blocking out what I am saying like most liberals do when they are told something that they don't want to hear, just consider the fact that I just may be right.

And regarding what you said about abortions and 1st trimester, that is not what we were talking about. We were talking about Obama saying that a baby who is aborted and survived, should be killed anyways because if it lives it would be going against the original decision. Don't change the subject please. We are trying to see if you are as evil as Obama.


PositiveOutlook

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2009, 09:11:18 pm »
Furnishedowner,

"Pirate story--no comment--I was tied up at work and missed most of that drama. I was glad that it was stopped--piracy can not be tolerated."

So, "to be clear", you are OK with Obama ordering the ASSASSINATION/KILLING of the three pirates, who were only after MONEY, to save ONE captain, but you are against Bush/CIA waterboarding, within strick guidelines and to extract CRUCIAL INFORMATION, which they were successful at, with a medical team at the ready no less, LEAVING THEM ALIVE afterwards which SAVED not ONE but countless other lives? 

Please help us understand your logic here... because I don't think you truly understand what actual torture is...

Also, you still never defended your position on this (and I think we know why deep down) - "The thing that absolutely astounds me is that you say you would sit on your hands and not waterboard someone who was standing in the way of your INNOCENT child being in mortal danger (I never said "help" them as you try to mischaracterize it to make it more palataple, I specifically said - "and one of them was in mortal danger, and the only way to save them was to get information from someone")?  You would not exhaust ALL ways to get this information?  You mean you are willing to sacrifice your INNOCENT child for the terrorist?"

I don't believe you would... but, prove me wrong and explain this to us....  if you would trade your INNOCENT childs life for someone's "right" to perpetuate that evil, by not telling you how to remove that mortal danger by withholding measures that would give you access to this information, then you have some soul-searching to do on this.... 

"And it does not create intelligence that can be relied on."

As we've seen from the quotes from the intelligence heads involved, INCLUDING Obama's OWN DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, who - "CONCURS that these interrogations yielded “high value information.”, your assertion on this is patently false...  you are just trying to ignore this information, as it does not fit with your narrative....  however, this ignorance does NOT change the facts...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 09:40:20 pm by PositiveOutlook »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2009, 09:35:06 pm »
Furnisedowner,

Abortion - "I believe abortions should be 1st trimester only. Should parents have the right to abort a 16-or 18 week fetus after having an amniocentesis? Should a child with severe mental/physical handicaps that parents cannot handle be aborted at that stage? I sure as heck don't know. It would be a horrible decision to have to make. Would you want your child in one of our under-funded institutions if you couldn't care for it? This is where we the people need to weigh in with our opinions"

Perhaps if you began to view life as life, and not as one qualifies over the other because of physical or mental deficits, it would make it easier for you... To be certain at what you intimiating so there is no confusion.... Are you saying that someone with a disability, no matter how severe, that their life is less valuable than it's polar opposite (i.e. - a completely healthy baby at birth, even though it may develop a life-altering desease later in life)?


There are MANY examples of people being born with dabilitating deseases or abnormalities that go on to lead extraordinary lives... I don't think you need a list, but I will provide you with one if you want...

What about the people who develop these life-altering deseases during their lifetime as opposed to before or even right after birth?  Are they less of a life than the next? 

What is literraly AMAZING about alot of these people is that the medical community had all written them off, and they not only proved them wrong but went on to lead extraordinary lives (and continue to), positively affecting millions of other people...


"... the rights of the woman to have a life trumps the right of fetal cells to continue growing in the first trimester."

Putting aside the complete selfishness of that statement (i.e. - "right to have a life"), by week nine, their fingerprints, you know the biometric standard used for identification, are fully formed...  NOT a collection of cells...  never mind a beating heart, growing brain, hands and feet, etc...  - All HARDLY just "fetal cells" but a formed and reactive body...  Most women do not even know they are pregnant at this point...  Look at some 3D ultrasound images, and you will not be able to classify the baby/fetus as a collection of cells, as early as four-five weeks...


Furnishedowner, you seem to want to sanitize what I believe you already know in your heart is wrong, which is why you use eupheism's to distance yourself from harsh realities that it is not ony a life, but a baby...  Even taking out the term baby and just using life, by saying that the woman has the right to end that life because it is inconvenient (half of abortions are by woman who've had one before... so no learning there), then when it is also "not convenient" for adtuls to pay for or care for their aging parents, should their "right to a life" give them a right to end their elderly parents life?  If not, WHY not?



"Should parents have the right to abort a 16-or 18 week fetus after having an amniocentesis? Should a child with severe mental/physical handicaps that parents cannot handle be aborted at that stage? I sure as heck don't know"

What is seemingly bizarre to me is that you place such emphasis on protecting terrorists from waterboarding, who were picked up in the act, than you do in defending the defenseless, who's only defense from death is reliant on a misinformed mother's conscious which is sanitized by referring to it as a collection of cells.   Technology has dramatically changed in just the past 10 years...


BTW, I do not believe you are "evil"....
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 09:41:30 pm by PositiveOutlook »

Offline sellnbama

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2009, 10:25:51 pm »
Do any of you honestly believe that if this election was the year after 9/11 that obama with his questionable past would stand a chance?He could'nt even pass the screening to be a secret service agent!So why are some choosing to overlook the fact that the media has created this great guy that is so in touch with all(under the axelrod research team which writes those great speeches).It's sad alot can't see whats goin on behind the curtain.All you have to do to know where we're headed is look @ how chevez has taken over the money(oil co.)and the media.So go ahead give him more time if you like,we'll be here when the trance wears off. 

Offline furnishedowner

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Re: the terrorists new lawyer is our president!?
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2009, 12:26:28 pm »
Hooch,
Very scary post..."We are trying to see if you are as evil as Obama"!

You have some dark thoughts in your closet. Heck, I thought we were just having a political discussion. Where do you live? And are you taking your medication?
Okay, sorry for that jab, but let's not call each other "evil".  Misinformed, ignorant, opinionated, okay. But not evil. And neither is Obama. Cheney, however...

Positive Outlook,
I GAVE you my opinions on waterboarding, torture, etc. You like to regurgitate questions and chew them up again! You go on and on! Just read back a post or two and you will have my opinions.

Hoosier,
Obama is himself multiracial, half-White, half-Black.  He was quoting his grandmother, not himself. And I have known a number of little ol' white ladies who had the same fears years ago. Just because he quoted his grandmother doesn't make him a racist. That would be an oxymoron.

Hooch,
I agree with you that laws should be changed on some victimless crimes. I had a friend who basically lost his whole future because he was caught twice with marijuana. He wasn't hurting anybody, wasn't even a regular user.

But not the seatbelt laws! Think "crushing chest injury"--that's what happens when the steering wheel goes into your chest at 40 MPH! Think being in an ER picking glass out of a screaming, bleeding toddler's face. If there wasn't a law, and a fine, millions of dumb parents would let their little kids ride around loose in their cars. We just had a 5-person fatality here, whole family wiped out, no seatbelts.  This costs our society and economy. We save lives and money with that law.

Furnishedowner

 




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