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Author Topic: Naitonalized Healthcare...  (Read 129849 times)

Offline fdjake

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2009, 09:00:49 am »
No Mike......My "turn around" has nothing to do with any President or politician.  It based on REAL THINGS....If it was getting WORSE HERE, where I am, I be YELLING IT!!!  I've said this before.....My State ENTERED this recession LONG BEFORE other States did.  It completely makes sense that we would EXIT first. 

It's called PAYING ATTENTION...When I try to get a roofer out to a job and he tells me he can't even look at it for 2 weeks....I pay attention to that...When I see restaurants in my area FILLED to capacity on Friday nights....I pay attention to that.....When I talk to my banker and he tells me the banking business has just entered the FATTEST PROFIT YEARS HE HAS EVER SEEN because interest rates from the Feds are ZERO.....I pay attention to that.....When I see comsumer sentiment numbers INCREASE at 3 times the expectation... I pay attention to that.

You DO need to get away from the losers you rent to....Lately your the most depressing person I read on this forum.

The "get the goverment out" theory worked great for WALL STREET huh???
COMPLETELY UNSUPERVISED FOR 8 YEARS!!!!!  Look what THAT got us.

And by the way......There's a TON of people in this country that WORK THEIR @SSES OFF and still have no health care.   No body SAID working was sacrifice....But when your HEALTH COVERAGE is TIED to your JOB...It becomes a problem for people when they LOSE that job.

And no.......The U.S.A. is NOT going to collapse.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 09:37:04 am by fdjake »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2009, 09:30:35 am »
FDJake...

"Military healthcare" - I didin't gloss over it, but answered it quite directly a few posts ago...  you obviously didn't read it...  and it is certainly NOT how you portrayed it...

"bitching and moaning" - actually I am trying to change hearts and minds BEFORE this disaster happens because I CARE about the absolute MISERY this will create...  That being said, I did offer up ideas a few posts up, but as usual FDJake, you went off on personal attacks, instead of reading the posts.  It's become a tired and lame debate tactic because you use it all the time...

"$1800 a month" - That's $21K per year.... if you are basing that monthly figure off COBRA payments, that IS THE GOVERNMENT.  That is what they provide in lieu of employer contribution.  DID YOU READ THAT - THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT.  If you give me their name, phone number, I can GUARANTEE you that they do not have to pay $21K per YEAR for health insurance...  We are a family of six, and we pay (including employer constribution) $7K per year...  The laughable part is that you will probably NOT provide me with their info, so I CAN get them health insurance (no I do not sell insurance), even though you now have a source that can help them, which leads me to believe that it is bogus....  If it were me, I would JUMP at the chance for my FAMILIES sake, not my pride...

"FREE healthcare" - and therein lies my point.. it is NOT going to be free, and as someone who has had COBRA, which was more than my employer was paying, this is the fate that awaits people... INCREASED COST for DECREASED SERVICES...  When it happens, and the misery is widespread, JUST LIKE IN CANADA, you can look back at your cheerleading of it with pride, I guess....

"United Health" - I did not say in anyway that I defended their CEO, but although I disagree with the amount he is being paid, if he was able to contract that for himself, and the company amd stockholders (you know, people like you) were willing to pay it, more power to him.  We just witnessed the shareholders ousting a CEO, instead of "bitching and complaining" how much he makes.  I don't begrudge someone else the ability to leverage their talents to make as much as they can, just as I don't begrudge you the ability to leverage your talents to make as much as you can on Wall Street in the stock market, you GREEDY CAPITALIST!  :biggrin  Just a few clicks and some research, and some money, and you get to make thousands?  Why should you, as an individual, be able to make thousands of dollars off of FORD on the backs of FORD employees and consumers?  Why should YOU profit so much for doing so little as a few clicks and waiting for a few years when it could insure YOUR FRIENDS for years at a time?  At least he is a CEO with responsibilities for the money he is making....

What I don't agree with is the government telling EITHER OF YOU how much money or opportunity you are permitted to make or get access to in our country...  If you made $124 million in trading stocks FDJAke, I wouldn't begrudge you it, but all you would have done is traded stocks FOR YOURSELF, and made money FOR YOURSELF.  I do find it funny that the entertainment industry is so vocal about CEO pay, when they themselves make oodles and oodles of it...

BTW, the 2-year old and the 55 year old GETS FREE Healthcare if there income is low, so the argument IS BOGUS...

"Cell phone" &" sacrifice" - My point about the cell phone, and other LUXURY items (i.e. - internet, cable, , is that YOU have a responsibility tp provide for YOU.  Others can help out in times of need, but your BASICS (i.e. - food, shelter, healthcare) are YOUR ONGOING RESPONSIBILITY.  These are the things you are supposed to provide BEFORE the luxury items... Once you've taken care of your basic responsibilities, THEN you go onto LUXURY items... The reason people have become weakened to their own responsibilities, and literally have had their lives ruined is that they do not rely on themselves, but have come to rely on the government.  And we see what a great job they do...  It is human nature... the more you do for people, the less they do for themselves...  Why is there no hue and cry to pay everyones auto insurance?  Last time I lived in New Jersey, we were being REQUIRED BY THE GOVERNMENT to pay auto insurance to the tune of over $3k per year, and that was for older vehicles...

"but they're ALL working full time.  Their COBRA health care ran out.  They've cut EVERYTHING.....Cable TV GONE.....Cell PHONES GONE.....Extra car GONE (he takes the bus to his job)......." - What I don't get, is that if they are working FULL-TIME, and not getting money taken out for employee contributions for healthcare, and NOT paying for COBRA, and the cable, phones, the extra car (no more insurance payment for it either)... WHERE IS ALL THE MONEY GOING?  Think your bogus example through next time...  If they are real people, HAVE THEM CONTACT ME or provide me with their name and number and I WILL improve their circumstance (MORE SOLUTIONS), even though their "friend" who reminds us ALL THE TIME how much money he makes, doesn't step up, give them HIS MONEY, to help HIS friends in their time of need (but would rather have them beg at the alter of the government), which he could also WRITE OFF, or give them one of his properties to live in RENT FREE while they get back on their feet.  But, prove me wrong, provide me with your friends contact info, or give them my email to contact me, and I WILL take action to improve their circumstance WITHOUT the government...

As I've said before...  liberals are GREAT at spending OPM (other people's money), but stay away from theirs... and there is no such thing as liberal hypocrisy...

« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 09:40:52 am by PositiveOutlook »

Offline fdjake

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2009, 09:49:16 am »
Better yet......YOU give US the PHONE NUMBER for Health care coverage that these people can get at the great prices you mention.  Post the number RIGHT HERE....There's a LOT of people here who are self employed.  Do something to HELP them.........Then they can simply call and confirm EVERYTHING YOU say.

See....What you DON'T KNOW is..... I PAID for my OWN Health Insurance for 15 years.  Bluecross/Blueshield through the Rhode Island Builders Association.  For a family of 4 that coverage now costs $1698/month.
I got THAT rate (the best I could get in this area) because it was a GROUP plan. Out of plan was $2000/month.   Some poor bastard working as a WAITRESS (which is what one of these people is doing)  AIN'T GETTING THAT RATE.

But you go right ahead and POST THAT PHONE NUMBER.....I'm sure there's other folks here who know people that can use those GREAT RATES you mentioned!!!

SO LET'S HAVE IT________________________________________.

Fill in the blank.....Post the number so we can help these people.

What you DON'T know about health care is SCARY.  Did you know that EVERY State has different rates for COVERAGE.  Oh.....DIDN'T KNOW THAT ?????

Did you know MALPRACTICE INSURANCE in Florida is ONE THIRD the cost of the same coverage in NEW YORK State.   Gee.... I WONDER if that could affect your MONTHLY INSURANCE PAYMENTS?????

Man....If YOUR the medicine for our health care problems......The disease might be BETTER. 

DON'T forget to post that PHONE number so we can ALL help people get better health insurance rates!!!! (That ain't happening)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 09:55:25 am by fdjake »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2009, 10:15:50 am »
I thought it was bogus... thank you for proving it and nice try in the attempt to deflect it...

BTW, there is no ONE number to fit all and until I have their info, and details I cannot help them...as you state, it's different in each state... but ANYONE interested in help, email me and I be happy to help with their particular circumstance as I am able...

What you don't know is that I am self-employed, have been for a decade, have been employed running a multi-million dollar company, dealing with this issue driectly for employees, until MY gig ended resulting in dealing with the governments MORE EXPENSIVE COBRA PLAN and that I have lived in different states under different systems.

But you could've, and STILL CAN help them in the ways I described, but we know because IT'S YOUR MONEY, it's not going to happen, even though we know THAT won't happen... As we can see, liberals are OK with spending OPM, but not their own...

"working as a waitress" - if that's their only income, they would qualify under Medicaid.  If not, and it is two peoples salary's, and they "cut EVERYTHING out", WHERE IS ALL THE MONEY GOING?

Offline fdjake

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2009, 10:35:15 am »
I knew that wasn't happening.    :bs

Seriously.....If you have all this knowledge about obtaining inexpensive health care coverage. Let's HEAR IT.  Explain it so we can ALL benefit from your Multi-million dollar company experience.

For anyone else who cares.....She's an Ex computer IT employee.....now working as a waitress.  Her previous job had an onsite day care for their 2 kids.  That's gone now so she works as a waitress nights and weekends so she can watch the kids during the day.  Her husband was a supervisor working in a plant that made electrical switches and fixtures.  His job went to China.  He now works for a landscaper cutting lawns for $12/hour.  THEY HAVE A $95,000 mortgage on a home they bought long before the boom.  They didn't run up their credit cards (they do have a small balance they pay on monthly) and they sold the newer car they had to eliminate that payment.  He rides the bus to the landscaping companies office each day so his wife can have the car if she needs it.  His ENTIRE weekly pay would have to go to Bluecross at a GROUP RATE in order to get coverage.
that would leave her income of $300/week for FOOD, the mortgage, utilities, and anything else.  They are surviving and are up todate on their mortgage and all their bills. 

They just CAN NOT AFFORD HEALTH CARE COVERAGE!

Here's the scary part....that waitress job she took.....Had 49 applicatons for 2 spots.   Her husband ran into the same situation.  Lot's of people looking for very few jobs.  They took what they could GET. 

These are great, hard working people.  They are SCARED TO DEATH of simply getting SICK or seriously hurt.  They are just making their payments, they can't come NEAR what they need to pay health insurance at the rates in New England.  They've cut back on everything.  They probably won't be in this situation forever.  But all it takes is an injury and they could literally LOSE THEIR HOME.

Maybe I'm screwed up......But in the richest country in the world.....Somethings wrong with that.

As far as helping people......Believe me.....I help more people in a WEEK, than you do in a YEAR!!!

Ask the readers here who bought FORD STOCK how much HELP I've given them.  Or the people I've walked step by step through their first flip.

ALL FOR FREE I MIGHT ADD!

Or you could ask the guy I handed $9000 to last week for FINDING A PROPERTY FOR ME!!!   He spent 5 minutes of his time calling me with a story about a property a guy had left to him.  he was smart enough to get his phone number.  I gave him the money because I MADE MONEY on the deal and he FOUND IT for me.   No money out of his pocket, no risk to him.  And a $40,000 profit for me......I think that was VERY generous.    I also give to charity on a regular basis and have helped more friends than I care to remember.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 11:36:51 am by fdjake »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 11:40:17 am »
YES, FDjake... you knew the ONE number wasn't coming because it was another of your infamous red herring's....  :bs  as I said, there IS no ONE number...  But as I also said, ANYONE can contact me via email if they would like help with their particular circumstance as I am able...  So unlike you, I am avoiding nothing, but encouraging it, and just like Furnishedowner and her tale of plight for her "friend" in another thread regarding not being able to afford health insurance, you CHOOSE not to help... OR provide your "friend" with a source of help OTHER than the government....

"I help more people in a WEEK, than you do in a YEAR!!!" - extemely presumptive and arrogant on your part...  I never asserted that I help more OR less people than you, but judging by your definition of "help"...

What is extremely telling FDjake, is that you will give someone $9K for providing you wth "5 minutes of his time", WHEN IT BENEFITS YOU, or the equivalent of 19 WEEKS salary for your landscaper "friend" who is "scared to death" INSTEAD of just giving him the money to allevaite their stress, which you could write off... At the minimum, you could SHOW your landscaper "friend" HOW TO BIRDDOG FOR YOU, dramatically INCREASING his INCOME AND CIRCUMSTANCE, and giving them the ability to BUY THEIR OWN INSURANCE.... but, just let them stew in their own stress juices...

At the minimum, you could puchase them Catasropic coverage (which is half the cost of regular insurance) to alleviate their "scared to death" mentality, being that you just made $40K for doing very little... Hey, here's an idea, why not show your "friend" HOW to do what you do, be his HML (this way you still profit) for his first deal, and truly make a difference.... and guess what?  The GOVERNMENT DIDN"T HAVE TO GET INVOLVED...

Put your money where you mouth is...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 11:45:30 am by PositiveOutlook »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2009, 11:44:58 am »
Or better yet, buy them 2000 shares of Ford, and in a couple of weeks, they can buy their own insurance AND pay you back, right?...  May is supposed to be a good month... yes?


Offline fdjake

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2009, 11:45:42 am »
The $9000 went to a UNION ELECTRICIAN that hasn't worked in 5 months!!!!  

I put my money where my mouth is....EVERYDAY...

When you get your SECOND FLIP done we'll compare notes on who's helped who MORE!!!!

But I have to admit......the Ford stock idea ain't bad. :beer



PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2009, 12:11:47 pm »
"But I have to admit......the Ford stock idea ain't bad."

AND the government DIDN'T have to get involved... :beer Thanks...

"The $9000 went to a UNION ELECTRICIAN that hasn't worked in 5 months!!!!" - Yes, BUT you did not give him the $9K, he GAVE YOU the $40K because he lacked the knowledge to get it for himself.  You gave him $9K because YOU BENEFITED (which I do not begrudge you, BTW, but Geithner would). That union electrician, who has been out of work for 5 months, would have benefited MUCH MORE had you shown him how he could have gotten the $40K and paid you $9K... yes?  Or went 50/50...

My point is FDjake, just like with Furnishedowner, I don't believe the "friends" you listed exist.  If they did, you would act on these suggestions or at the very least, have them contact me in lieu of your inaction...

Honestly, let's run the numbers...

Waitress (15K) & Landscaper Salary ($25K - includes no overtime, unlikely the case with a landscaper this time of year) - $40K or $3333/month
Taxes (6%) - $2400/year or $200/month (they should have no withholding as with an income of $40K/year and a mortgage of $95K, they do not need to have any withholdings)
$95K mortgage, taxes, insurance - $1K/month
Credit Card minimum (not run up, right) - $100/month (likely less)
Phone (no cells, right?) - $40/month (although  Vonage can do it for $25/month)
Electric - $150/month
Gas/Bus - $200/month
Food - $400/month
Internet - $30/month
Entertainment - $200
NET POSITIVE MONTHLY INCOME - $1013

Am I missing anything?  Where's the money going?  Seems to me, that if the lanscaper is not getting any overtime, he could use the extra time LEARNING FROM YOU on how to do his first flip... As Mike likes to say, there are many more work hours in a week than 40 hours... THAT'S CALLED SACRIFICE...

Fdjake, you're an intelligent guy, and people DO benefit from your posting, which is one of the reason's why I, and I may be speaking out of turn, but MIke, find it hard to, on the one hand watch as you defend the government doing that which you are better off doing for yourself, while conversely doing and profiting for yourself...

It is a fact of life, you do not teach your kids to be dependent on the government (that is, if you care about them), but rather to be responsible and do for THEMSELVES.

WHY do you want to expect LESS from adults?....

« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 12:16:47 pm by PositiveOutlook »

Offline Vader

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2009, 12:25:31 pm »
Positiveoutlook, your posts have very condescending tone to them. Apparently anyone that doesn't share your viewpoint needs your education so that they can learn some sense.

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2009, 12:43:34 pm »
Your free to your opinion Vader, but it rings particularly hollow coming from you based on your posts in other threads.

"Apparently anyone that doesn't share your viewpoint needs your education so that they can learn some sense." - Wrong, I don't pretend to be smarter than the next... but I learned along time ago that you can only know what you truly believe if you challenge what you believe by looking at both sides, and arguing the merits... 

In this case, you only make people weaker by making them dependent on the government... and in this case (i.e. - nationalized healthcare), it has the potential to make lives miserable for EVERYONE across the board... especially when there are other ways to accomplish the goal without literally making people slaves to the government...  You would think that Social Security and Medicare, Medicaid, etc. would make this obvious...  people on these systems are MISERABLE... and we want to nationalize this?

Where's the logic?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 12:45:25 pm by PositiveOutlook »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2009, 12:47:38 pm »
It still doesn't answer the question... WHY do you want to expect LESS from adults?....

Offline furnishedowner

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2009, 12:48:44 pm »
fdjake,

Thanks, you really hammered your points home. I am with you 100%. You are a hell of a good writer. You contribute enormously to the readability of REI CLUB. You could easily handle a newspaper column--why not submit some of your "Contrarian Writings" and get some bucks for your words. You can start with a local rag in your neighborhood...but I would miss reading you here.

 I ESPECIALLY ENJOY YOUR UNIQUE STYLE AND PUNCTUATION....... IT'S LIKE YOU ARE SCREAMING!!!!! But very easy to read, please don't change.

It's as if Positive Outlook doesn't have a clue about the real world that working people are in. If you are in the working poor, every tank of gas is a challenge, your diet is Ramen and Macaroni & Cheese, your clothes come from the Thrift Store, but usually you can't afford to go there. An illness is huge, because how are you going to afford the medicine?

No, you can't get all prescriptions cheaply. I just had to pay $219.81 for 9 Imitrex tablets because I had a sudden migraine that was driving a giant metal spike right between my eyes. I had stupidly forgotten to renew my Prescription from the Canadian pharmacy that I use that charges $4.50/pill! But it takes weeks, and a special prescription from the doctor, and it can be held up in U.S. Customs, and it ain't real easy to do. Oh, and United Healthcare only covers 4 pills a month. THEY DON"T COME IN PACKAGES OF FOUR, ONLY NINE AND THE PHARMACIES CAN'T SPLIT THE PACKAGES!! That's how United Healthcare  cuts their costs of that medication.

 Yes, I will pay for National Health. No, of course it won't be free.

Grandma was paying hundreds of dollars a month for her 4 or 5 special eyedrops until we got the Canadian thing figured out. We discovered she was only taking 1/2 dose of the eyedrops to SAVE MONEY. She had lost about 85% of her vision by then due to the increased intra-occular pressure on her optic nerve. Yep, that's what the middle class, not just the poor is resorting to.

PositiveOutlook, Look, there is also no way that I would give you  someone's name and number to "help". I enjoy trading communication but I don't know you, and I certainly don't think you are qualified to help the poor. You are in some kind of PollyAnna Conservative fog where you think people can "bootstrap" themselves out of poverty.

Remember the old cartoon about Barry Goldwater lecturing a little Black kid--"Why didn't YOUR daddy give you a department store?"

Okay, a final note...
Everyone needs to read "Outliers" by Gladwell. He's the same guy who wrote "The Tipping Point" and "Blink". It's a terrific read, kept me up all night. Spotted it in Hastings, a new release.

This book tells how Bill Gates, The Beatles, and others made it. It has made me see people around me in a different light. It has made me be more proactive in helping others. It definitely modifies the "bootstrapping" theory of how to get ahead. It's a mind-bending book of research into what makes some people uber-successful-- Outliers-- outside of the norm winners. And how culture can kill the chances of others. One of the best books ever for understanding human behavior. Highly highly recommended. Spend your bucks on it. Learn.

Furnishedowner




PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2009, 01:04:46 pm »
Furnishedowner,

"Look, there is also no way that I would give you  someone's name and number to "help" - I also offered for you to provide THEM my email, but, and this is a big BUT, if they are real, you did not even give them the CHOICE.  And basd on your posting it all of a sudden resolved itself AFTER I offered, just as was the case with FDJake.  I have LOTS of exeperience with the working poor, as I demonstrated in that thread and YOU Furnishedowner recognized; I also used to be one.  Everyone has periods in their life where things go bad, but what you are advocating is putting everyone decisions and money under the control of government for healthcare.

The polyanna view is that government can do this WITHOUT charging the working poor MORE for the same thing while getting less services.  Just like with Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. the money eventually runs out, and you either have to charge more or give less...

The difference between us is that you want to condem these people to this life under government control as opposed to showing them HOW to it different while remaining free and with CHOICES.

"And how culture can kill the chances of others." - yes, like government dependence...

"because how are you going to afford the medicine?" - drug companies HAVE programs in place to provide FREE drugs to the working poor AND elderly on fixed incomes.

You're just resigned to let the government do DESPITE ALL the evidence that they will not be able to do it wihtout INCREASING costs to the working poor, but taking it out of their check as a tax, and then providing them with less services... 

How, exactly, DON'T you see this??? 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 01:22:06 pm by PositiveOutlook »

PositiveOutlook

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Re: Naitonalized Healthcare...
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2009, 01:09:15 pm »
Furnishedowner -

"Yes, I will pay for National Health. No, of course it won't be free." - yes, and it will be MORE epxensive with LESS services.  If you don't think so, WHAT do you base this on?  You are ready to subserviate your fellow citizens to it, SURELY you know the answer to this....

 




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