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Miscellaneous => Random Ramblings => Topic started by: sellnbama on June 06, 2009, 10:08:34 am

Title: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 06, 2009, 10:08:34 am
1-drug czar
2-energy & environment czar
3-health czar
4-urban affair czar
5-economic czar
6-regulatory czar
7-technology czar
8-govt. performance czar
9-border czar
10-WMD policy czar
11-itelligence czar
12-car czar
13-cyber czar
14-great lakes czar
15-stimulus czar
16-salary czar

YOU DID'NT KNOW "CHANGE" CAN MEAN ANYTHING??????
CZAR-EMPERORS,DICTATORS.   
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 06, 2009, 10:46:23 am
As far as I know, success has never been achieved through czarhood. The drug czar has been a complete waste of space ever since that position was created by Reagan. Get rid of the drug czar and his staff to help cut costs. I don't like pot or what it does to some people, but just make it legal already so that law enforcement can concentrate on the really dangerous stuff (meth). We could save so much money by doing this.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 06, 2009, 08:11:43 pm
I'm one of those radical far right wing wackos. More along the libertarian lines without the anti war crap. All drugs directly from a plant without modification should be legal in my book.

Interesting facts on nonviolent offenders.
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm

25% of all people in prison are there for drug law violations. At 50,000 a piece per year. Give me a break.

Stop the "drug war" and spend 1 tenth of the money (billions considering prison costs) on drug education, give us the rest back in reduced taxes.
 
Back in Abe Lincolns days, federal taxation was 5%. The entire government ran on 5%. Today our military alone requires 6%. So anything above 6% is theft in my book.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 06, 2009, 10:00:47 pm
Hoosier,
Lol,yeah thats the list with number sixteen added a few days ago(while the media as usual was covering the muslim,piss on jews tour).I also was in a bookstore today,if you really wanna get sick drop by one sometime and checkout all the obama is the greatest crap.Funny thing is the number of books against him before the election way out numbered the two he wrote about himself,Now they are hidden behind all the ones praising the greatest day in presidential history.SOoooo sick of this BS!!If he really does pull a chavez and rig the election(aka acorn)I told the wife we may check out austrailia,or maybe china since they seem to understand economics more than the idiots in charge here.Frustrating,hoping a state will have the balls to get out of the union,could you imagine how booming the economy would be for that state?   
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 06, 2009, 10:12:27 pm
I told the wife we may check out austrailia,or maybe china

I definitely wouldn't want to live in a country more socialist than here. China is to a great degree. Australia is basically being run by the ACLU. They even have bills in the works that ban it's citizens from carrying a tiny little pocket knife. The guns are already long gone from the law abiding citizens. The only people who have them are the criminals. They seem to have some pretty cool Bloaks there but in reality the libs are running that country.

I have been trying to find out what country in the world is more right wing than the United States and can't find one.

Frustrating,hoping a state will have the balls to get out of the union,could you imagine how booming the economy would be for that state? 

I would love that!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 06, 2009, 10:42:12 pm
Anyone who has seen first hand the effects of drugs on people view it differently than heavy or occassional users...  the damage drug use does is widespread... 

While I'm not in favor of locking up adults who use marijuana, I think what makes more sense is treating it along the same lines of alchohol abuse...  fines, loss of license if intoxicated while driving... same for giving it to minors...  public intoxication... treatment for addicts that THEY pay for...

But because it is part of the genre of drugs that we tell kids not to use, I think it would send a complete mixed message to kids to make it a legal substance... 








Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 07, 2009, 12:00:35 am
I personally don't even know why marijuana is illegal. I don't smoke it and never will. Tried it many times as a kid and it really wasn't my thing. So, even if it was legal I wouldn't smoke it.

But I have no problems with those who do. It's far less dangerous than alcohol. You can't die from an overdose, it's not physically addictive, it doesn't start bar fights, and it is a good source for additional taxes (not exorbitant, just additional).

The only thing I see as a negative to marajuana is that it seems to make those who smoke it very complacent in their lives. You would think complacent is good but not when you are still living at moms house at 35 years old. Or not when you still have the exact same job and position since you graduated high school or college. And being perfectly happy with that.

The key in my opinion to solving the drug issue is education and rehabilitation, not imprisonment. And I am not talking about these ridiculous scare tactic type of commercials that often say things about the particular substance that are complete lies. Real education. Teaching people the negatives of getting addicted to any drug and letting the drug control your life vs you controlling your life, etc.


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: justin0419 on June 07, 2009, 01:26:41 am
The only thing I see as a negative to marajuana is that it seems to make those who smoke it very complacent in their lives. You would think complacent is good but not when you are still living at moms house at 35 years old. Or not when you still have the exact same job and position since you graduated high school or college. And being perfectly happy with that.

Hey, you gotta have someone to further the McDonald's empire!  If that's the road someone wants to travel, so be it. 
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 07, 2009, 01:49:16 am
LOL, you're right!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 07, 2009, 09:12:35 am
I agree, that's not good. But I don't think they cause anywhere as much trouble as drunks do (domestic violence).  Anyone whose ever watched an episode of COPS knows what alcohol do!  :shocked


The only thing I see as a negative to marajuana is that it seems to make those who smoke it very complacent in their lives. You would think complacent is good but not when you are still living at moms house at 35 years old. Or not when you still have the exact same job and position since you graduated high school or college. And being perfectly happy with that.




Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 07, 2009, 10:33:41 am
There have been literally thousands of studies on marijuana use and the one commonaility they ALL have is that it is not safe for a variety of reasons...  We tell kids not to smoke for two primary reasons... additction and desease...  marijanua is a little less on the addiction side, but over time MORE is needed to get the same high...  that considered, it's an INCREASED health risk...

From the below article on a 2007 New Zealand medical study... "Smoking one cannabis joint caused damage equivalent to smoking 2.5 to five cigarettes in rapid succession, researchers at the Medical Research Institute of New Zealand found"...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/jul/31/drugsandalcohol.drugs

Combination of alcholhol and marijuana are a dangerous combo...  one desensities you, the other makes you feel like superman...

"In a study conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a moderate dose of marijuana alone was shown to impair driving performance; however, the effects of even a low dose of marijuana combined with alcohol were markedly greater than those of either drug alone."

Both impair your senses...  is anyone going to argue that driving while high is a good thing?

"Marijuana is the second most common drug, after alcohol, present in the blood stream of non-fatally and fatally injured persons."

If there weren't so many NEGATIVE aspects of marijuana, that cost TAXPAYERS money, I could care less if adults smoked it...  If it affected only YOU... knock yourself out...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 07, 2009, 01:08:47 pm
"""2007 New Zealand medical study... "Smoking one cannabis joint caused damage equivalent to smoking 2.5 to five cigarettes in rapid succession, researchers at the Medical Research Institute of New Zealand found"..."""

And what is the point? The damage of 2 to 5 cigareettes in rapid succession. And what damage is that? They failed to mention. Hyperinflation of the lungs since they suck in and hold their breath. Getting too much air. Give me a break.

Anti marijuana propaganda is quite comical. Very similar to liberal economics. So divers and snorkelers in the tropics are all damaging their lungs by holding their breath for too long. Ohh my, the cannabis smokers experienced coughing when when they inhaled too much at one time. This is a perfect example of absolute desperation to keep it illegal by either the government of that country or some speical interest group like an alcohol manufacturer.

We should talk about the damaging effects of MOST VITAMINS if taken in access. They will KILL you.

"In a study conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a moderate dose of marijuana alone was shown to impair driving performance; however, the effects of even a low dose of marijuana combined with alcohol were markedly greater than those of either drug alone."


I don't know anyone that thinks that you should be able to drive on it. It should be treated the same way as alcohol.

"Marijuana is the second most common drug, after alcohol, present in the blood stream of non-fatally and fatally injured persons."

Completely useless and irrelevant quote. What is the second most common vitamin present in the blood of non-fatally and fatally injured persons? That only means that it is second most popularly used drug. It doesn't mean that they got killed or died because of it.

If there weren't so many NEGATIVE aspects of marijuana, that cost TAXPAYERS money

Please tell me exactly what those are. And build your case to a greater degree than alcohol on the cost to the taxpayer. If you don't than the reasonable assumption is that you want alcohol prohibited by big daddy.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 07, 2009, 01:34:59 pm
To me, this is a issue of what you want to scope of the government to be.

Do you want a big government, that tries to correct moral habits that some polician thinks needs correcting, at the taxpayer expense?

 Smoking pot does not effect anybodys right to life, liberty, right to own property, pursuit of happyness (which i believe is the government primary, if not only, responsibility.)

Or do you want a small government, with low taxes, and allows personal responsibility and choice.

This issue comes down to personal choice.  Government should have no right to outlaw my right to smoke pot if I want to. AS LONG AS, I dont interfere with anybodys right to life or liberty.

Thats my 2 cents...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 07, 2009, 01:38:50 pm
Sitting around being stoned is not my idea of a life.

Having said that, we can't always protect people from themselves--that's being a Nanny State. Some do become dependent on it, but the vast majority of people use it briefly in high school or college and then walk away from it, or use it once in a blue moon. From what I've heard, heavy alcohol or cocaine use depletes dopamine levels in the brain--i.e.  you have less ability to experience pleasure without use those drugs. Much more addictive.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 07, 2009, 02:14:17 pm
Hooch...

No, I've already said that incarceration doesn't make sense for casual users (unless they are caught driving or committing a crime while using it), but the police aren't going into to peoples homes to find them smoking a joint, they are recovering it from busting them while driving under the influence... marijuana combined with alcholhol just makes it WORSE than either by themselves, which was the reason for the quote from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

I don't understand the relavence of taking too many vitamins vs. smoking marijuana... nobody sits around popping vitamins for fun or to get high... too much water can kill you also...

"So divers and snorkelers in the tropics are all damaging their lungs by holding their breath for too long."

Divers and snorklers aren't holding their breath with hot smoke (making the capillaries expand absorb to go into the bloodstream) in their lungs... if the divers had too much oxygen, it could also be fatal...

"the cannabis smokers experienced coughing when when they inhaled too much at one time"

That's known as your immune system rejecting what you are putting into it... 

Alcholhol vs. Marijuana

Drunk drivers are severey punished... loss of license, large fines, manadatory treatment, incarceration.... much more than those caught with a few joints... 

I don't have an answer regarding alcholhol legality... but I don't buy the argument that making marijuana legal at this point makes sense... If marijuana, why not all the other drugs?  And when kids watch you do this... what message does that send?  In a perfect world, there wouldn't be abuse of any drug, but along with it comes consequences...



Hoosier4life2005....

"AS LONG AS, I dont interfere with anybodys right to life or liberty"

Ufortunately, it is because it does which is why they are involved...


HoldAndBuy....

"we can't always protect people from themselves"

Here we can agree, but it is when it goes past themselves that it becomes the problem...  problem is about the same level of people who become alcholholics also become marijuana dependant which DOES cost us money in law enforcement, the courts, rehab, health insurance, etc...

"you have less ability to experience pleasure without use those drugs."

The same problem occurs with marijuana, but to a lesser degree than cocaine...


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 07, 2009, 02:15:56 pm
The war on drugs is completley failing, its time to end it.  Its not worth the taxpayers dollar.

 Just last night, I was with 2 of my friends and we were sitting around a camp fire, and we had weed. My friends got it very very very easily.  Were not experts at sneaking around the cops either, it was so so so easy to get, and could get MUCH MUCH MUCH more RIGHT NOW if we wanted too, from more than one dealer.

Of course, I dont get into this stuff because it does "demotivate" you.  However, if I decide to smoke weed, I dont think its worth everybody spending their money on if I want to ruin my life.  Its my choice.

Sitting around being stoned is not my idea of a life.

Having said that, we can't always protect people from themselves--that's being a Nanny State. Some do become dependent on it, but the vast majority of people use it briefly in high school or college and then walk away from it, or use it once in a blue moon. From what I've heard, heavy alcohol or cocaine use depletes dopamine levels in the brain--i.e.  you have less ability to experience pleasure without use those drugs. Much more addictive.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 07, 2009, 02:19:25 pm
PositiveOutlook,

How does somebody smoking pot, as long as their not driving, interfere with life or liberty.  Its just like alchohol. If weed should be banned, than alchohol should be too.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 07, 2009, 02:51:19 pm
No, I've already said that incarceration doesn't make sense for casual users (unless they are caught driving or committing a crime while using it), but the police aren't going into to peoples homes to find them smoking a joint,

What's the point? Who cares if they are smoking it in their house?

they are recovering it from busting them while driving under the influence...

And I agree, they shouldn't be driving under the influence of marajuana. But finding it in the car and not being under the influence of it are two different things.

I don't understand the relavence of taking too many vitamins vs. smoking marijuana... nobody sits around popping vitamins for fun or to get high... too much water can kill you also...

And who cares that people are sitting around smoking marijuana to get high? That is just as relevant as sitting around drinking too much water.

Divers and snorklers aren't holding their breath with hot smoke (making the capillaries expand absorb to go into the bloodstream) in their lungs... if the divers had too much oxygen, it could also be fatal...

Divers and hyperinflation of their lungs. http://www.erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/4/1113

Sorry but capillaries absorb what is in your lungs hot or not.


"the cannabis smokers experienced coughing when when they inhaled too much at one time"
That's known as your immune system rejecting what you are putting into it...


I would love to see the research on that.

Drunk drivers are severey punished... loss of license, large fines, manadatory treatment, incarceration.... much more than those caught with a few joints...

What state are you in? Driving under the influence of marijuana in every state I have lived in has the exact same punishments as alcohol.

And when kids watch you do this... what message does that send? 

It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be abuse of any drug, but along with it comes consequences...

Live a little, will ya?


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 07, 2009, 02:57:46 pm
PositiveOutlook,
I don't think anyone here is defending stoned driving, or any other negligent behavior that results from pot use. Have you ever met a serious pothead? They drive stoned all the time now, I don't know that legalizing it is going to make that better or worse. If the police want to throw the book at impaired drivers, whether it be pot or anything else, I'm all for that.
As for dopamine I'm pretty sure that pot acts on a different receptor site in the brain than alcohol, etc.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 07, 2009, 03:58:57 pm
"And who cares that people are sitting around smoking marijuana to get high? "

I don't care per se... I don't go around checking to see if they are... but the same can be said for cocaine, heroin, etc... 

Ironically, it is during economic bad times when abuse occurs the most, when we NEED people to be in their right mind AND motivated...


"How does somebody smoking pot, as long as their not driving, interfere with life or liberty."

Problem is that they do drive under the influence while it's ILLEGAL now...


"Its just like alchohol. If weed should be banned, than alchohol should be too."

Then so should cocaine, heroin, etc...  I give my kids a sip of wine during Christmas for a toast (although they usually leave it, as they don't like it), but I would not give them a joint, or a snort or needle...  you don't see alot of people going around at social events that involve kids toking on a dubie, or snorting a line or shooting up...  but they do have a drink, which is more acceptable...

Alot of this goes to muddying the message to kids...  if you can smoke pot, why not the others?...  if they were "wrong" about pot, maybe they are "wrong" about all the others...  experience and the high costs of rehab and healthcare tell us different...


"Sorry but capillaries absorb what is in your lungs hot or not. "

Exactly my point... longer holding of smoke in your lungs, the more absortion of the carcinogen whether hot or not... when you heat something up it expands (capillaries)...



"What state are you in? Driving under the influence of marijuana in every state I have lived in has the exact same punishments as alcohol"

That could be, and if it is the case, that is a good thing...


"It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer."

Then there should be no problem with doing cocaine and other drugs in front of kids...


"Have you ever met a serious pothead?"

Abosolutely... and IMHO, a great example of WHY it should remain illegal...


"Live a little, will ya?"

Because I don't do drugs, I'm not living a little...   :rolleyes  I do... but I don't need drugs to live a little...  life has SO MANY other ways to enjoy it that are MUCH more fulfilling... but to each his own... as long as it legal...  :biggrin
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 07, 2009, 04:24:47 pm
 I give my kids a sip of wine during Christmas for a toast (although they usually leave it, as they don't like it), but I would not give them a joint, or a snort or needle...

And you do this because you are controlling their dosage. You wouldn't give them an entire bottle. Point made. A snort of coke or 1 puff of marijuana would be equivalent to a bottle of wine. They would feel the effects. What you give them does not make them feel the effects and you need to modify your statement to compare the two apples to apples.


Alot of this goes to muddying the message to kids...  if you can smoke pot, why not the others?...


Same muddied message as alcohol.

if they were "wrong" about pot, maybe they are "wrong" about all the others...

You wouldn't have to position the legalization of marijuana as being "wrong" about it. Do you think that how they positioned alcohol when they ended prohibition?

Exactly my point... longer holding of smoke in your lungs, the more absortion of the carcinogen whether hot or not... when you heat something up it expands (capillaries)...

Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone? Maybe we do a don't hold it in and smoke it like a cigarette campaign  :biggrin Anyways 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day would be considered an EXTREMELY light smoker.

"It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer."
Then there should be no problem with doing cocaine and other drugs in front of kids...


Doing something deemed as not physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health is much different than shooting up around your kids. You can't even compare the two. But you're trying to.

"Have you ever met a serious pothead?"
Abosolutely... and IMHO, a great example of WHY it should remain illegal...


So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting.

"Live a little, will ya?"
Because I don't do drugs, I'm not living a little...   rolleyes  I do... but I don't need drugs to live a little...  life has SO MANY other ways to enjoy it that are MUCH more fulfilling... but to each his own... as long as it legal...  biggrin


I should have said, let others live a little. Victimless crimes are absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to do something to their own body they should be able to do so as long as others are not being harmed. I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that.

How about those people who can't get laid for some reason or another and they want a prostitute? Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups.

The government needs to back the F**K up and get out of peoples lives. Not a single one of us were put on this earth by God to be controlled by a small group of very powerful individuals. I know that is not what God had in mind for me.



Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 07, 2009, 04:54:22 pm
100% agreed Hooch. 



I give my kids a sip of wine during Christmas for a toast (although they usually leave it, as they don't like it), but I would not give them a joint, or a snort or needle...

And you do this because you are controlling their dosage. You wouldn't give them an entire bottle. Point made. A snort of coke or 1 puff of marijuana would be equivalent to a bottle of wine. They would feel the effects. What you give them does not make them feel the effects and you need to modify your statement to compare the two apples to apples.


Alot of this goes to muddying the message to kids...  if you can smoke pot, why not the others?...


Same muddied message as alcohol.

if they were "wrong" about pot, maybe they are "wrong" about all the others...

You wouldn't have to position the legalization of marijuana as being "wrong" about it. Do you think that how they positioned alcohol when they ended prohibition?

Exactly my point... longer holding of smoke in your lungs, the more absortion of the carcinogen whether hot or not... when you heat something up it expands (capillaries)...

Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone? Maybe we do a don't hold it in and smoke it like a cigarette campaign  :biggrin Anyways 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day would be considered an EXTREMELY light smoker.

"It sends the exact same message that a kid gets when you drink a beer."
Then there should be no problem with doing cocaine and other drugs in front of kids...


Doing something deemed as not physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health is much different than shooting up around your kids. You can't even compare the two. But you're trying to.

"Have you ever met a serious pothead?"
Abosolutely... and IMHO, a great example of WHY it should remain illegal...


So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting.

"Live a little, will ya?"
Because I don't do drugs, I'm not living a little...   rolleyes  I do... but I don't need drugs to live a little...  life has SO MANY other ways to enjoy it that are MUCH more fulfilling... but to each his own... as long as it legal...  biggrin


I should have said, let others live a little. Victimless crimes are absolutely ridiculous. If someone wants to do something to their own body they should be able to do so as long as others are not being harmed. I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that.

How about those people who can't get laid for some reason or another and they want a prostitute? Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups.

The government needs to back the F**K up and get out of peoples lives. Not a single one of us were put on this earth by God to be controlled by a small group of very powerful individuals. I know that is not what God had in mind for me.




Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 07, 2009, 05:11:25 pm
"Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone?"

Hooch, you read this wrong, smoking one "joint caused DAMAGE EQUIVALENT to smoking 2.5 to five cigarettes in rapid succession." Read the article again...

"What you give them does not make them feel the effects and you need to modify your statement to compare the two apples to apples. "

My point is that they are not apples to apples...  you have wine, beer, mixed drinks, and while they all contain alcholhol, they are not specifically consumed to get a high... the same is not true of marijuana... that is it's specific intent...

"Doing something deemed as not physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health is much different than shooting up around your kids. You can't even compare the two. But you're trying to."

If you ask a kid if someone is smoking pot, or snorting cocaine or shooting up heroin, what are they doing?  Drugs... marijuana is a drug...  If you ask them if someone is drinking the response is not the same...They are drinking... different association... thereby, MUCH more chance of muddying the message...

but the fact that it is not as "physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health", was not the point you all were making... it was that it was in private... and my point is that if you remove the illegal status for this reason, you have no reason NOT to for the other more potent drugs... it's their body, right?

"So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting."

Those who get hooked/addicted on it... no, you won't stop them... they put the fact that they can be incarcerated aside as well as other reason and will do it no matter the consequence... they usually also combine this with alcholhol... and that's the point... by it being illegal it diminishes those who may be prone to addiction from coming in contact to it DUE to it's illegality thereby dimishing the addictive rate...  You open it up to a wider audience by making it legal, you also expand the addicted class, WHICH DOES COST US MONEY... You are not disputing that are you?

" I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that. "

In that case, the only person you are affecting is you...  but the person who is impaired when driving and KILLS or injures someone else goes beyond themselves, whether you wear a seatbelt or not...

"Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. "

Because it costs others more money to treat the deseases they do get...

"And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups."

And that would stop the ones WITH the deseases to start obeying the law?  If they are involved in abusing their bodies in such a way by choice, they certainly aren't going to stop because they failed a test...  Thereby, those who participate in this instead of developing real relationships remain exposed to desease risks...

There is also another flaw to the health check-ups... who pays?  If they are responsible themselves, who is going to police it at additional cost to the taxpayers?  And if they fail the test, is not the test easily forged?  Another agency would have to be developed just to enforce it... just what we need... now, imagine it on a national level...

"I should have said, let others live a little."

Weird definition of living, but to each his own.... as long as it's legal...   :biggrin
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 07, 2009, 07:13:02 pm
"Will you please tell me how the equivalent of smoking 2.5 to 5 cigarettes a day (due to holding it in) will quickly kill someone?"
Hooch, you read this wrong, smoking one "joint caused DAMAGE EQUIVALENT to smoking 2.5 to five cigarettes in rapid succession." Read the article again...


And....... chain-smoking 2.5-5 cigarettes does not cause damage therefore this statement is irrelevant and nothing more than a desperate attempt to make it out like smoking a joint causes immediate damage to a person. I don't smoke tobacco now but years ago did. And I have chain-smoked cigarettes.... And there is nothing wrong with me or anyone who has. Smoking tobacco "sometimes" causes problems over MANY years of continuous use. Just like the abuse of anything does, including the abuse of FOOD which happens to be one of my only vices,,, well except the liqueur,,,,,, and the women.

My point is that they are not apples to apples...  you have wine, beer, mixed drinks, and while they all contain alcholhol, they are not specifically consumed to get a high... the same is not true of marijuana... that is it's specific intent...


So consuming alcohol to get a high should be illegal,huh? Come on, relax a little bit Positive. Just because you don't like to tie one on from time to time doesn't make it right to make it illegal. Hold your horses there partner.

If you ask a kid if someone is smoking pot, or snorting cocaine or shooting up heroin, what are they doing?  Drugs... marijuana is a drug...  If you ask them if someone is drinking the response is not the same...They are drinking... different association... thereby, MUCH more chance of muddying the message...


And if marijuana was legal... And you ask them what that person is doing they say marijuana. There is only one reason today that they would say drugs and I think you know that it is due to the brainwashing they get from school teachers and the police man on show and tell day. The first year of legalization they would say that drug marajuana that they found to not be dangerous like the bad drugs are.

but the fact that it is not as "physically addictive and not seriously damaging to your health", was not the point you all were making... it was that it was in private... and my point is that if you remove the illegal status for this reason, you have no reason NOT to for the other more potent drugs... it's their body, right?

I never made a point that people should use marijuana in private. If legalized I support the use of marijuana in bars (with designated drivers) on the street (as long as you are not bothering others) in their house, and where ever they want to do it. Just not being under the influence during times of work or driving. Then maybe I could get some happy little complacent workers that will keep their jobs for the next 20 years with no aspirations of raises or desires to politically battle within in attempts to steal each others jobs. :biggrin

And, most I already know,,, do not agree with my standpoint on this but I do also agree with the legalization of any other drug that does not create victims. If a drug like crack or heroin or crystal meth causes thiefs which victimize others in armed robberies or murders than I disagree with it's legalization. That is where I draw the line. If the drug is going to change a person through addiction into a criminal therefore creating many victims than I want it to remain illegal. If it creates a few victims like alcohol and bar fights do I have no problem with it. You can choose not to hang out at bars if you wish to avoid that type of scene.

Drugs that don't create that many victims but can be avoided if you wish to do so - Alcohol, marijuana, acid and other hallucinogens, extacy.
Drugs I am not sure of but I don't THINK cause many victims - Opium, Cocaine
Drugs that turn people into armed robbers and murders when deeply addictied - heroin, crystal meth, crack.

"So you think that it being illegal will stop people from doing it. Interesting."
Those who get hooked/addicted on it... no, you won't stop them... they put the fact that they can be incarcerated aside as well as other reason and will do it no matter the consequence...


Alcohol is "physically" addictive. Marijuana and hallucinogens are NOT physically addictive. It is questionable whether marijuana can be mentally addictive. This is why it is so easy for people to stop these drugs. Once an alcoholic though, it is very hard to stop, just like tobacco which is also physically addictive. So please explain how they are going to get "hooked" on marijuana or acid. And if they did, what is the point if it is legal. My mom is "hooked" on the drug caffeine and has to have 1 coffee in the morning each and every day to fully feel normal. I know lots of people who are, but it is not negatively effecting their lives with exception of the control that the addiction has on you.

by it being illegal it diminishes those who may be prone to addiction from coming in contact to it DUE to it's illegality thereby dimishing the addictive rate...

Like I said, they can't get addicted to marijuana or acid. And even if they could who cares, they aren't harming anyone but themselves and with marijuana in particular they aren't even doing that with exception of their lack of drive in life. Us A type personalities like to be on the top but everyone is not that way. And everyone can not be on the top.

You open it up to a wider audience by making it legal, you also expand the addicted class, WHICH DOES COST US MONEY... You are not disputing that are you?

I AM disputing how much money you think non addicted marijuana users would cause the tax payer. Actually they would make tremendous amounts of money for the tax payer via tax revenue just like alcohol does.

I think you are one of those people who believe the common misconception that the obese and tobacco users are costing insurance companies more cash than the average Joe does.  Therefore this expense gets passed on to the rest of the population. This is INCORRECT. It costs significantly more money to care for a person long term and pay for their long death as they age than it does for someone who kicks it 10 or 20 years before they get to that stage of needing a nursing home and 24 hr care. This is another one of those frauds like the "man made global warming scam" is.

" I just happen to be a criminal once and a while when I don't feel like putting my seat belt on. I'm such a bad person for that. "
In that case, the only person you are affecting is you...  but the person who is impaired when driving and KILLS or injures someone else goes beyond themselves, whether you wear a seatbelt or not...


Why do you keep going back to driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol? No one that I know says that is something we should legalize. We aren't even talking about that. Tell me how using marijuana in a legal and responsible way causes victims.

"Why should they not be able to give themselves a disease if they want to not wear protection. "
Because it costs others more money to treat the deseases they do get...


Again, go to my previous point. It only causes the tax payer money if they live a long healthy life.  And taxation of prostutution instead of them having to keep it under the table would contribute greatly to our economy. Also done in a responsible way like Nevada does, the medical community would benefit from frequent visits and the "john" would benefit from not contracting diseases if they did something stupid like not wearing protection. I would like for you to explain to me with examples of how prostitution is hurting Nevada and Canada tax payers. If you can't do so than your argument is completely irrelevant and it should be legalized right away.

"And what is wrong with the way Nevada and Canada does is, prostitutes must have regular health checkups."
And that would stop the ones WITH the deseases to start obeying the law?  If they are involved in abusing their bodies in such a way by choice, they certainly aren't going to stop because they failed a test... 


I agree that they won't stop, but WHAT guy would look for a hoe without a valid updated health card? The prostitutes without a clean bill of health wouldn't get much work if you were given a choice between one that has verification and one who doesn't. There is not that choice now therefore it will always remain a major risky behavior as long as the laws remain the same. Why do you not support this minimization of risk and the significantly reduced spread of sexually transmitted diseases? Why do you wish that it continue under the table in such a dirty manor? Are you one of the Americans that "sex" is a bigtime taboo thing?

Thereby, those who participate in this instead of developing real relationships remain exposed to desease risks...

What makes you think that every single person out there wants to have a longterm relationship with someone. Just because you like your longterm relationship with your wife doesn't mean that others want to follow your path. 50% of marriages end in divorce. Those who have been through a divorce don't necessarily want to go through another one after getting cleaned out for half of their assets. But that is besides the point. Simply said, some people want a no strings attached girl.

There are also people out there that have some sort of problem and they are destined to never be laid in their whole entire life. A retard for example or someone who is terribly ugly. Or a guy who has some severe personality defect and just doesn't seem to click well with others. Not necessarily a bad person, just an odd ball. So you are telling me that those people don't deserve to be able to get laid and if they do they should be criminals for doing so? Give me a break. Loosen up a little Mr. Stuffy.

There is also another flaw to the health check-ups... who pays? 

All people don't pay the same health insurance premiums Positive. The girl pays via higher premiums. It is her business expense. Or the insurance company doesn't cover it and she pays cash to be tested every week. It is a business expense, not an expense to the tax payer.

If they are responsible themselves, who is going to police it at additional cost to the taxpayers?

No need to police it with health cards. The "Johns" police it. If the hoe doesn't have a valid and updated card she won't get work when given the choice of someone clean vs someone who is not. That will put the dirty prostitutes out of business and force them to do some other line of work.

And if they fail the test, is not the test easily forged?

Anything can be forged but as you know it can be made not easy to do so just like the dollar bill and have substantial punishment for forgeries. There are other ways as well, where you are able to look up secure records that are not in possession of the prostitute. Many things that could be done and I am not sure exactly how Nevada and Canada do it but I haven't heard any problems and I haven't heard it is strangling the tax payer even in a country like Canada where everyone has government run health care. I assure you if it was the government of Canada would stop it.

Another agency would have to be developed just to enforce it... just what we need... now, imagine it on a national level...

As I said, hoes that have no updated clean bill of health get no work when the "john" is given a choice of clean or possibly dirty.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 07, 2009, 07:36:55 pm
A few years ago they identified a "lung cancer gene" that some people have that makes them more susceptible. It's sort of a crapshoot. We can all agree I think that smoking anything isn't very good for you.

P.O., I still don't think pot is as addictive as you claim.  I've met some people who who were addicted to prescription painkillers, that's a nightmare to get off of, weeks of tapering and withdrawl symptoms, not even on the same planet as weed in terms of addiction.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 08:44:59 am
u just a hater mi boi obama knowz wuts he doin and yur just jelous dat he guna gimme paycheks in duh mail. mabe u can get sum 2 if you ask. (typical obamalite)



seriously though, is that how many there are now?!


 :rolleyes
Are you kidding me? Is this how you perceive supporters of Obama? Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 08:53:12 am
Quote
Just last night, I was with 2 of my friends and we were sitting around a camp fire, and we had weed. My friends got it very very very easily.  Were not experts at sneaking around the cops either, it was so so so easy to get, and could get MUCH MUCH MUCH more RIGHT NOW if we wanted too, from more than one dealer.

That's disappointing.

Quote
Of course, I dont get into this stuff because it does "demotivate" you.  However, if I decide to smoke weed, I dont think its worth everybody spending their money on if I want to ruin my life.  Its my choice.

I agree 100% with that.  In fact, I would be in favor of legalizing all drugs, taxing it, building a LOT more prisons with the proceeds, and greatly increasing the punishment for property and violent crimes.  Then, when the druggie breaks into someone's house to steal money for drugs, we'd throw them into prison for the next 20 or 30 years!  Get this scum off the streets and into prisons (less all the frills) and we might start to improve the country.  Executing violent criminals (by the thousands) would also be a good thing.

Quote
Are you kidding me? Is this how you perceive supporters of Obama? Unbelievable!!!!!!!

Yes - minus the ebonics.  This isn't a race issue, but it sure as heck IS an issue of socialism!  Obama's supporters want a handout - simple as that!

Mike
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 09:08:19 am
And how do you know this? Your blanket statement is utterly ridiculous....

And the poster who used Ebonics DEFINTELY meant it...which is an insult....
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 09:13:14 am
Quote
And how do you know this? Your blanket statement is utterly ridiculous..
..

No, it's not ridiculous, it's absolutely true.  People who voted for Obama want a handout - it really is that simple.  Some want more welfare (which he's already delivered).  Some want a handout to the car companies that the unions have already destroyed.  Some want "free" healthcare, meaning that they want me to pay their healthcare for them.  Yes - they want handouts!

Mike
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 08, 2009, 09:20:12 am
100% agreed. They want handouts.

Please explain how they don't JCarr.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 09:21:50 am
Quote
100% agreed. They want handouts.

Please explain how they don't JCarr.

Or better yet, tell us which handouts you want.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 09:26:43 am
Whats dissapointing is how much the drug war is failing Mike. If its that easy for my friends to get weed, something isnt right. (I didnt smoke any weed, I dont do that stuff except occasionaly get drunker than skunk).

I completley agree with getting rid of the violent criminals.  I feel outraged my taxdollars are being used to feed and take care of murderers and theives.



Quote
Just last night, I was with 2 of my friends and we were sitting around a camp fire, and we had weed. My friends got it very very very easily.  Were not experts at sneaking around the cops either, it was so so so easy to get, and could get MUCH MUCH MUCH more RIGHT NOW if we wanted too, from more than one dealer.

That's disappointing.

Quote
Of course, I dont get into this stuff because it does "demotivate" you.  However, if I decide to smoke weed, I dont think its worth everybody spending their money on if I want to ruin my life.  Its my choice.

I agree 100% with that.  In fact, I would be in favor of legalizing all drugs, taxing it, building a LOT more prisons with the proceeds, and greatly increasing the punishment for property and violent crimes.  Then, when the druggie breaks into someone's house to steal money for drugs, we'd throw them into prison for the next 20 or 30 years!  Get this scum off the streets and into prisons (less all the frills) and we might start to improve the country.  Executing violent criminals (by the thousands) would also be a good thing.

Quote
Are you kidding me? Is this how you perceive supporters of Obama? Unbelievable!!!!!!!

Yes - minus the ebonics.  This isn't a race issue, but it sure as heck IS an issue of socialism!  Obama's supporters want a handout - simple as that!

Mike

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 09:40:22 am
Quote
100% agreed. They want handouts.

Please explain how they don't JCarr.

Or better yet, tell us which handouts you want.



So what are you implying?

That I want a handout b/c me and my entire family voted for Obama? Interesting!!!! 

Let me guess...we are on welfare as well....

UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.....
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 09:46:18 am
I didn't say that you are on welfare, but, yes, I implied that you want a handout - along with everyone else that voted for the Chosen One.  Why not just admit it and tell us what handout you want me to provide to you?

Mike
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 09:55:24 am
I didn't say that you are on welfare, but, yes, I implied that you want a handout - along with everyone else that voted for the Chosen One.  Why not just admit it and tell us what handout you want me to provide to you?

Mike

Right about now....Your respect would be nice!!!

I can't even believe you have the audacity to ask me "what handout do I want you to provide" Unbelievable!!!!!

UTTERLY RIDICULOUS!!!

Why dont you just admit that you feel that people who voted for Obama are scum!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 10:08:04 am
Quote
Right about now....Your respect would be nice!!!

Respect is EARNED, not bestowed.  I don't have much respect for people that want to take MY MONEY in order to receive a handout.  I'm not saying that is you, but I have asked you that question (without an answer).

Quote
Why dont you just admit that you feel that people who voted for Obama are scum!!

I don't think I have to "admit" that, I certainly do believe that most scumbags and deadbeats that voted did indeed vote for Obama.  They want a handout.  There are certainly others who do work and are not scumbags, who sincerely believe in socialism and therefore voted for our nation's first socialist.  Of course, they want a handout also.

So, to summarize, I do believe that everyone that voted for The Chosen One wants a handout.  I also believe that almost every scumbag and deadbeat in the nation that voted, voted for Obama.  I don't believe that everyone that voted for Obama is a scumbag or deadbeat, but I do believe that they want a handout.

You have carefully danced around the question?  Do you want a handout?  If so, which one(s).  It's hard for ME to give up my hard-earned money without knowing which handout you want me to provide to you.

Mike

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 10:51:20 am
Quote
Right about now....Your respect would be nice!!!

Respect is EARNED, not bestowed.  I don't have much respect for people that want to take MY MONEY in order to receive a handout.  I'm not saying that is you, but I have asked you that question (without an answer).



Quote
Why dont you just admit that you feel that people who voted for Obama are scum!!

I don't think I have to "admit" that, I certainly do believe that most scumbags and deadbeats that voted did indeed vote for Obama.  They want a handout.  There are certainly others who do work and are not scumbags, who sincerely believe in socialism and therefore voted for our nation's first socialist.  Of course, they want a handout also.

So, to summarize, I do believe that everyone that voted for The Chosen One wants a handout.  I also believe that almost every scumbag and deadbeat in the nation that voted, voted for Obama.  I don't believe that everyone that voted for Obama is a scumbag or deadbeat, but I do believe that they want a handout.

You have carefully danced around the question?  Do you want a handout?  If so, which one(s).  It's hard for ME to give up my hard-earned money without knowing which handout you want me to provide to you.

Mike



Your arrogance speaks volumes......

I refuse to answer such a self demeaning question.  The idea that I want a handout from you anyway shape or form is repulsive! I refuse to entertain your notion that ME or my family as Obama supporters supported him just to get a handout! That is the most arrogant thing I have heard on this board!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 10:55:10 am
U thinkk mi man obama can huuk me up wit a nuw car? i wantz one, and ize vote for him.  he so grate.


(JK, I backed Obama early on, even though his views werent the same as mine at all, because I thought he would end a few games in Washington, but I was young and dumb.  I actually voted for Barr.)

I dont want a handout, I just want the right to keep my own money :(

Dude please stop it...Its not even remotely funny...its very offensive
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 08, 2009, 10:59:05 am
Hoosier,

While I understand that you are a teenager and probably think your postings are funny I am going to delete all of them that are racially insensitive. Please keep the racial humor to yourself as it is not appreciated here.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 11:00:59 am
Whats offensive is the increased regulations and the gov stealing more of my money.  This is not what America is about.  Im sure you've talked to Obama supporters (ive talked to MANY)

Are you seriously telling me, you dont get a overwhelming feeling of them wanting stuff from the government?  The feeling of entitlements from them is overwhelming.


U thinkk mi man obama can huuk me up wit a nuw car? i wantz one, and ize vote for him.  he so grate.


(JK, I backed Obama early on, even though his views werent the same as mine at all, because I thought he would end a few games in Washington, but I was young and dumb.  I actually voted for Barr.)

I dont want a handout, I just want the right to keep my own money :(

Dude please stop it...Its not even remotely funny...its very offensive
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 11:05:08 am
WHOA WHOA WHOA.. WTF?  What I posted is not even close to racial.  I am not a racist.

What are you suggesting? Are you the one suggesting that black people (I assume black) cant write and talk correctly? That seems a bit racist to me.  (Im talking to you JCARR)

Lets make one thing clear, Racists are idiots.

If by reading my post, you are thinking im suggesting that all black people are not able to talk correctly, thats not at all what Im aiming for.

MANY white people voted for Obama too.  I was aiming that post towards all the people who are to trashy (who almost all voted for Obama) to finish Highschool, and they cant even learn how to talk or write correctly.  Therefor, I have to pay for all their things.  Thats what I was aiming my post at.

Unbelievable.  I cant believe that is considered racist by some...



Hoosier,

While I understand that you are a teenager and probably think your postings are funny I am going to delete all of them that are racially insensitive. Please keep the racial humor to yourself as it is not appreciated here.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 08, 2009, 11:07:34 am
Hoosier,

If you have a problem with it you can feel free to PM the owner of the site with your posting and ask him for a decision, but I know I was offended by it as was another member of the site. Please keep it to yourself.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 11:34:59 am
WHOA WHOA WHOA.. WTF?  What I posted is not even close to racial.  I am not a racist.

What are you suggesting? Are you the one suggesting that black people (I assume black) cant write and talk correctly? That seems a bit racist to me.  (Im talking to you JCARR)

Lets make one thing clear, Racists are idiots.

If by reading my post, you are thinking im suggesting that all black people are not able to talk correctly, thats not at all what Im aiming for.

MANY white people voted for Obama too.  I was aiming that post towards all the people who are to trashy (who almost all voted for Obama) to finish Highschool, and they cant even learn how to talk or write correctly.  Therefor, I have to pay for all their things.  Thats what I was aiming my post at.

Unbelievable.  I cant believe that is considered racist by some...



Hoosier,

While I understand that you are a teenager and probably think your postings are funny I am going to delete all of them that are racially insensitive. Please keep the racial humor to yourself as it is not appreciated here.

If you have to claify the point you were making, then right there my guess its probably inapporate. Next time use better judgment. 

Let me inform you as well. Everyone I know who voted or supports PRESIDENT Obama neither is trashy or uneducated. Neither do they talk like that.  So yes, dude please stop with you asinine assuptions.  No one sits around and ask "hey what handout am i going to get next" thats is just arrogant thinking on anyone part who believes that. And to lump a WHOLE Group of people into one uniform box is very close minded.  Just like everyone here got offended when a poster said " every businessman and politican was a crook" VERY CLOSE MINDED!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 11:41:00 am
Quote
I dont want a handout, I just want the right to keep my own money


In addition to the money, I'd like to keep the rights contained in the Bill of Rights!  Freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, due process, states rights, etc!

Quote
I refuse to answer such a self demeaning question.  The idea that I want a handout from you anyway shape or form is repulsive! I refuse to entertain your notion that ME or my family as Obama supporters supported him just to get a handout! That is the most arrogant thing I have heard on this board!!


I think everyone already knew that you wound't answer the question.  And I agree with you that the idea that liberals (socialists) want me to give them a handout is repulsive!!!  I am certainly repulsed everytime I think about having my money taken and given to the lazy.  However, your failure to answer speaks volumes.  Socialists want the money of those of us that work hard, but are unwilling to say so.  Instead, they wait for the Chosen One to reveal his master socialist plan one teleprompter at a time.

Let's get real, Obama's entire plan is about taking from the successful and giving to the deadbeats (his constituents).  He wants the government to control every facet of our lives.  That's the plan.  Did he close Gitmo?  Did he start withdrawing from Iraq?  NO.  In fact, his foreign policy ACTIONS are almost identical to Bush's.  None of his promises meant anything except taking from the haves and giving to the lazy.

Quote
one sits around and ask "hey what handout am i going to get next" thats is just arrogant thinking on anyone part who believes that.

Wake up!  Yes, millions of Americans do EXACTLY THAT!  I've got apartment buildings full of people that do nothing more than sit around and try to figure ways to get more from the government (me) - while watching their big screen tv and talking on the cell phone that I'M PAYING FOR!  You're just not in touch with reality.

Quote
And to lump a WHOLE Group of people into one uniform box is very close minded.

Really?  When millions of people vote for a socialist, I'd say that makes them socialists!!!  This is not rocket science.

Mike
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 08, 2009, 11:47:23 am
Mike,

What does it make all of the people who voted for an idiot (Former President Bush)? Idiots? You are correct it is not rocket science.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 11:53:19 am
Christopher,

YES!  I voted for Bush as the lesser of two evils (which I deeply regret) and I WAS AN IDIOT!

Mike
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 12:07:19 pm
Bush ran on good policies.  He said he wanted a non-intervention foreign policy. (That all went out the window, were still the world police)

He stood for lowering taxes. (Not in the sense that Obama says he will)

He said he wanted to de-regulate things, that went out the window too.


The policies that Bush ran on, if followed, were good policies.  He didnt follow through with them though.

The policies Obama was running on was essentially giving handouts to people and having Gov control more of businesses.

I think theres a big difference between those who voted for Bush (who ran on good policies) and those who voted for Obama (who ran on giving people stuff).





Mike,

What does it make all of the people who voted for an idiot (Former President Bush)? Idiots? You are correct it is not rocket science.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 08, 2009, 01:22:52 pm
Quote
And to lump a WHOLE Group of people into one uniform box is very close minded.

Really?  When millions of people vote for a socialist, I'd say that makes them socialists!!!  This is not rocket science.


And when 98% of blacks vote for Obama "because he's black" even though they are not 98% democrats I call them a bunch of racists. Yea, that's right, I said it, they are a bunch of racists. If I voted for Bob Barr because he was white than I too would be racist. I voted for him because I am a conservative and didn't like McCains liberal politics.

The policies Obama was running on was essentially giving handouts to people and having Gov control more of businesses.

This is exactly correct! I would like the leftists here to please tell us exactly why you voted for Obama. I'm sure it was directly due to experience or his desire of handouts or more government control. I know you did not just vote for him because you liked him because you then would fall into the category of an uneducated voter.

So please share with Obama's experience that made you vote for him, or the policies that you wished for. This will clarify things.





Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 08, 2009, 01:45:07 pm
Is'nt it racism just the same to vote for someone because he's black,as it is to vote against him for the same reason?Besides how can anyone call it racism since he's 1/2 white(not as gloryfied)but true.And how many "my president's black"t-shirts have you all seen?I've seen way too many,and you know how far this would go if it was the other way around.Admit it,the great uniter is dividing your country worse than ever!!How many times must I explain this??   
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 01:53:25 pm
Sellnbama and Hooch,

You guys are not being very politically correct.  Pointing out that some blacks could be racists is bad, bad, bad.  That kind of talk could end you up in a re-education camp (on my tax dollar - like everything else)!  The good news is that you'll be more policitally correct when (if) you get out!

Mike
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 01:56:21 pm
I think MANY MANY black people in America are racist.  I live in a area where like 90% of everybody is white, but those that are black, all vote for Obama because "hes for change."

Then you ask them what kind of change and they basically think your a racist, even if they dont say it.

Im not saying all black people are like this though, just a large majority.  There are black conservatives out there.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 02:01:26 pm
I don't know why we just can't treat everyone equally - regardless of their skin color.  You would think that a signal that racism would be over is when a black man could be president.  Now, I think that racism will be over when blacks can vote against a black candidate.  Ironic, isn't it?  Or when a white firefighter can outscore black applicants and actually get the job!
 
Mike

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 02:06:41 pm
100% agreed.  Unfortunetly, these liberals elect somebody like Obama, who elects that Hispanic judge, just because shes a latino (lets not fool ourselves, we all know thats why she got the job).

If we want to end racism, those that feel racism is against them need to stop being racist.  Its as simple as that.

Stop the reverse discrimination.  I am not racist, and I expect laws that favor a certain race (like making a workplace hire a certain amount of blacks and hispanics) to not be made.

Ron Paul is the best politician on this matter.

I don't know why we just can't treat everyone equally - regardless of their skin color.  You would think that a signal that racism would be over is when a black man could be president.  Now, I think that racism will be over when blacks can vote against a black candidate.  Ironic, isn't it?

Mike


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 03:11:23 pm
WOW....This is why I LOVE THE INTERNET!!!!! People can get on the internet..Hide behind their screen name and say how they REALLY FEEL!!!!

98% of black people voted Obama JUST B/C he is black? So that makes 98% of black people racist? Unbelievable!!!

Please stop with asinine assuptions!!! Where is your proof? What study you got that from? I would love to read it....Oh you talk to a few black people so now they represent black people nationwide.. :rolleyes Great!!

I talk to a guy at my office and he mention the would never vote for him b/c he is Black but he likes me though...So all white people must think the same not all but majority feel the way!!! SEE HOW RIDICULOUS THAT SOUND!!! I looked at him, smiled, and walked away! I didnt associate him with EVERY OTHER WHITE PERSON!!! THAT WOULD BE SMALL MINDED ON MY PART!!!



"Im not saying all black people are like this though, just a large majority.  There are black conservatives out there."

Let get this straight. IF your not a conservative then you are a racist and believe in socialism. Unbelievable!!!


These assuptions are unbelievable. Listening to you guys I would ASSUME that the majority of  conservatives believe that minorites could only get jobs b/c of affirmative action, 98% of blacks are racist,  are victims of reverse racism, and that conservatives are the ONLY way to go.

I'm done...I appreciate your opinions! Glad to know you feel.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 03:19:46 pm
Quote
I'm done...I appreciate your opinions! Glad to know you feel.

I'm still waiting to hear why YOU voted for Obama.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 03:24:28 pm
Im with Mike... Im really anxious to hear why you voted for Obama..

You can spin what I said anyway you want, thats what you Liberals always do. I believe I made my points very clear, and if you wanna spin it like that, go ahead.

As far as your little buddy who said he wouldnt vote for Obama because hes black.. that guy is a racist.  If there was a black fiscal conservative (and i mean a real conservative, not a mccain/guiliani progressive) I would gladly vote for him, color doesnt matter. 

Your buddy is just as racist as the black people who  NEVER VOTED IN THEIR WHOLE LIFES, until HUSSEIN came, then they did, just BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK. 98% voted for him, no way do 49/50 people of any racial group vote for the same person in politics unless its becausae of race.

So lets hear it... why did YOU vote for him?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 08, 2009, 03:44:58 pm
I don't know about "executing by the thousands" but otherwise I agree. We just had some nut here throw his girlfriend's baby out a car window onto the highway!

Quote


I agree 100% with that.  In fact, I would be in favor of legalizing all drugs, taxing it, building a LOT more prisons with the proceeds, and greatly increasing the punishment for property and violent crimes.  Then, when the druggie breaks into someone's house to steal money for drugs, we'd throw them into prison for the next 20 or 30 years!  Get this scum off the streets and into prisons (less all the frills) and we might start to improve the country.  Executing violent criminals (by the thousands) would also be a good thing.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 03:56:58 pm
Im with Mike... Im really anxious to hear why you voted for Obama..

You can spin what I said anyway you want, thats what you Liberals always do. I believe I made my points very clear, and if you wanna spin it like that, go ahead.

As far as your little buddy who said he wouldnt vote for Obama because hes black.. that guy is a racist.  If there was a black fiscal conservative (and i mean a real conservative, not a mccain/guiliani progressive) I would gladly vote for him, color doesnt matter. 

Your buddy is just as racist as the black people who  NEVER VOTED IN THEIR WHOLE LIFES, until HUSSEIN came, then they did, just BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK. 98% voted for him, no way do 49/50 people of any racial group vote for the same person in politics unless its becausae of race.

So lets hear it... why did YOU vote for him?

AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS....YOUR ASSUPTIONS ARE KILLING ME!!! STOP WITH YOUR UNFOUNDED OPINION!! if you read a report then talk...Dont tell me that 98% voted for him b/c he is black..


Not that I should even have to answer this but for you entertainment I will ( much better than asking me what handout I want...Im making progress)

-The war. I firmly believe its was the wrong war at the wrong time by our previous president
-Stem Cell Research.  
-Pro Choice
-Gun Control
-Mininum Wage
-His stance on The Death Penalty.
-Stance of Africia.We need MORE attention to the genocide going on in Africa.

These are some...He is policitian so I only put so much faith in a 100% of what he says...but like PropertyManager said earlier...ITS EITHER MCCAIN OR OBAMA!! and I felt Obama was more aligned with my views.


 "And when 98% of blacks vote for Obama "because he's black" even though they are not 98% democrats I call them a bunch of racists."

I don't have to spin anything. You said it in plain english!!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 08, 2009, 04:18:49 pm
jcarr,
Umm,I believe it was bush(aka terrible bush)that sent more aid to africa than any other in history.I'm kinda divided on the stem cell,ect.But the main topic you should've been concerned with was the economy(that is if you still believe money is good).This should've been 1st order of business!!Not gitmo,not the muslims,not a "stimulous"that bush proved did'nt work(until 2010"election year).Come on man,he had you all dazed with his stand on policies meanwhile he's killing our economy!!!It's like we're headed for a brickwall and everyone is arguing over who gased up the car.Who cares!!Would somebody with a brain(preferably that actually ran something)please grab the wheel a steer us away or perhaps find the brake pedal!!!!

spending=high &new taxes=slower economy(slower than the deadstop we're @ if thats possible).Really simple...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 08, 2009, 04:20:29 pm
Jcarr makes a very good point. It is not like there was a whole bunch of people to vote for. I believe that so many people were turned off by the previous administration's policies that Jesus Christ himself would have lost the election if he had run as a republican. Conservatives can complain all they want about the election but they have no one to blame but the previous administration and party leadership.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: JCarr on June 08, 2009, 04:28:40 pm
jcarr,
Umm,I believe it was bush(aka terrible bush)that sent more aid to africa than any other in history.I'm kinda divided on the stem cell,ect.But the main topic you should've been concerned with was the economy(that is if you still believe money is good).This should've been 1st order of business!!Not gitmo,not the muslims,not a "stimulous"that bush proved did'nt work(until 2010"election year).Come on man,he had you all dazed with his stand on policies meanwhile he's killing our economy!!!It's like we're headed for a brickwall and everyone is arguing over who gased up the car.Who cares!!Would somebody with a brain(preferably that actually ran something)please grab the wheel a steer us away or perhaps find the brake pedal!!!!

spending=high &new taxes=slower economy(slower than the deadstop we're @ if thats possible).Really simple...


If had the ability to ook in the future..then that would have been great but I dont...Now if you dont like whats going on...There is 2012!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 08, 2009, 05:16:39 pm
Quote
Not that I should even have to answer this but for you entertainment I will ( much better than asking me what handout I want...Im making progress)

-The war. I firmly believe its was the wrong war at the wrong time by our previous president
-Stem Cell Research. 
-Pro Choice
-Gun Control
-Mininum Wage
-His stance on The Death Penalty.
-Stance of Africia.We need MORE attention to the genocide going on in Africa.

Straight from the socialist playbook!

The Chosen One doesn't agree with you on the war.  He's continuing the war in Iraq on the same schedule as the Bush administration.  He expanding the war in Afghanistan.  So much for that!

Stem cell research is a red herring.

Killing unborn babies - yeah, that's a good thing!

Gun Control - taking away our constitutional rights - good plan!  that leaves only the criminals with guns.  Brilliant!

Minimum wage - yep, there's a handout!

Death penalty - kill unborn babies but not murderers!  Gotta like that!

Stance on Africa  -  who besides Bush has done anything about Africa?  What would you have Obama do about Africa?  Invade?  Start a war?  Put in troops (some of whom would be killed)?




Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 08, 2009, 06:11:22 pm
JCarr, you have said some rather shocking things but it is to be expected from a radical fringe leftist.

-The war. I firmly believe its was the wrong war at the wrong time by our previous president - But moving the war to Afghanistan is OK. Besides the fact, he DIDN'T stop the war in the first place. Do you call 2012 Stopping it? He lied!

-Stem Cell Research.  - I'm OK with this after all stem cells can be taken at the point of 4 cells formed and 4 cells is in no way a thinking or feeling child.

-Pro Choice - Wow, you are actually for killing a baby? You should educate yourself on the abortion process a little and you may feel different.

-Gun Control - So do like South Africa and Australia have done where law abiding citizens can no longer protect themselves and the ONLY people with guns are the criminals. That's real smart.

-Mininum Wage - Agreed, definitely a handout. So why do you wish that high schoolers get paid more money?

-His stance on The Death Penalty. - Another one he lied on. He is pro death penalty. Quote from the messiah himself. "I have said repeatedly that I think that the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstances for the most egregious of crimes" We all know that the death penalty today is only used in the most egregious crimes so there is absolutely no change.

-Stance of Africia.We need MORE attention to the genocide going on in Africa. - So you want us to go to war Somalia and Darfur etc, or just talk to them nicely and ask them to stop? Maybe drop a couple of our helicopters down like Clinton did and have them beat and burn our soldiers for 8 hours until they die.

"And when 98% of blacks vote for Obama "because he's black" even though they are not 98% democrats I call them a bunch of racists."

I should have said that 98% of blacks voted for Obama, even though they are not 98% democrats. Those who were republicans and voted for Obama "because he's black", I call a bunch of racists.

And YES, that's right. EACH and EVERY one of them who voted for Obama BECAUSE he is black ARE RACISTS.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 08, 2009, 06:17:26 pm
Amen Hooch, Amen!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 08, 2009, 06:53:11 pm
jcarr,
Nope don't like it one bit and the rapid speed of wasteful spending will haunt our economy for years to come.Why can't people understand that he's doin all the same spending that everyone was outraged at the last year of bush at a much,much faster rate??I don't care if he's black or purple wasting money for absolutly nothing but political gain is an outrage,bush doneit,the messiah is doing it with jet speed.If some would look past the teleprompter speeches it's right in front of you.Also how stupid are we supposed to be?If things were really getting better would'nt you see it instead obama always reading off the teleprompter it is??Take off the obama googles,there's alot that he's not reading to you!Oh and as for 2012,did you happen to see how happy the brits are with wasteful politics.I only hope the dictator(as chavez done)does'nt rig the election or I'm afraid of another civil war,which none of us want.Do we?       
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 08, 2009, 08:51:08 pm
Do we?

I guess it depends on who your talking to but if you ask me the answer is yes.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 08, 2009, 10:04:04 pm
"I don't know why we just can't treat everyone equally - regardless of their skin color."


"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr.


Wouldn't that be GREAT!  Ironically, I think that perpetuating reverse discrimination just make MORE people resent other people...


"You would think that a signal that racism would be over is when a black man could be president." 

I think that future calls on racism will ring more hollow because of this...  I think that people literally steal the dreams of young black men/women when they perpetuate this, and doom them to a life less lived in bitter discontent...

Remember, Obama was elected DESPITE attending a racist church (noone is going to deny that are they?) for all those years...


"Now, I think that racism will be over when blacks can vote against a black candidate."

Keep in mind, ALOT of white people just voted against the white candidate and voted for a black man and from we are reading here, it had nothing to do with him being black (which I don't necessarily buy that it wasn't a factor)... but assuming that is indeed the case, the white population is ahead of the curve... we need to give the black population time to catch up on this...


"Ironic, isn't it?  Or when a white firefighter can outscore black applicants and actually get the job!"

I think Justice Roberts put it best...

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -- Chief Justice John Roberts



"Conservatives can complain all they want about the election but they have no one to blame but the previous administration and party leadership."


Christopher, you don't believe that the media played a HUGE role in not only getting Obama elected, but their continued DEFENSE of him, avoiding their own professional obligation of objectivity?

BTW, it's not just conservatives that are complaining...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 08:14:28 am
Positive,

The previous administration was so bad, and put off so many people that a chimp could have run against John McCain and won. Regardless of how history will treat George W. Bush down the road; at this point in history I don't think republicans can distance themselves enough from him or his administration. He will always be remembered for the Iraq War, and he will always be remembered for the recession. I know in the past you posted a list of his positives, but people that think he did a good job as president are few and far between. I bet at this point a lot of republicans are wishing that John Kerry would have won in 2004.

Before you jump all over me again I will also repeat I voted Republican.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 08:37:08 am
George W. Bush.....He will always be remembered for the Iraq War

Obama will always be remembered for Continuing the Iraq War and lying about bringing everyone home.


and he will always be remembered for the recession.


And Obama will always be remembered for being single handedly responsible for creating a national debt that we will never be able to repay when absolutely NO bailout and social programs were needed.

but people that think he did a good job as president are few and far between.

Completely incorrect as the Obama The Magnificent only won with 53% of the vote which is not a landslide by any means. And he got only 43% of the white electorate. (all white voters lumped together, union, southern, northern, etc.) It is clear that your statement is based on absolutely NO factual information. There are 304 million people in the United States which means that 161 million people did NOT vote for Obama. I definitely wouldn't say that 161 million people is "few and far between" and you spend WAY too much time watching the main stream media which has clearly convinced you of this completely bogus information that you are sharing as fact.

Before you jump all over me again I will also repeat I voted Republican.

And I voted libertarian. That's besides the point. You have been brainwashed by the mass media. That is what the point is. Break your chains and start listening to both sides rather than only what you are being force fed by the drive by media.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 08:59:59 am
The problem with the Republicans is that they arent Conservative.  Watching Mccain vs Obama is like watching a Progressive against a admitted Socialist.  There really isnt a difference, its ridiculous.  There really isnt a difference when you get down to it.

Until the Republicans get back to being fiscal conservatives, they will not receive a vote from me.  Libertarians will get my vote.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 10:39:14 am
Hooch,

I think it is way too early to be deciding what President Obama will be remembered for.

He may well be remembered for the massive national debt and the "Hyperinflation" that you are preaching about all over this website, but I believe that we have smart people in place that will guide us through these troubled times. When someone with a PHD in economics (Bernanke) tells me that a bailout is needed I am going to go ahead and listen to them over some internet kook (that would be you) that would have let the financial system collapse.

As for the war... um hello we DESTROYED THEIR COUNTRY over false information. Do you really think we can just up and leave them with a chest bump and a "my bad"? Sure we can if we want the next Osama Bin Laden to come straight out of Sadr City or Bahgdad.

You can keep preaching that gobbeldy gook all you want about the election not being a landslide but as I said before a majority of people in this country wanted a change from the previous administration and it's policies. Last time I checked 53% is a majority.

As for me being brainwashed by the liberal media. I like to think that I am bright enough to see both sides of every subject. The world I live in is not as black and white as the place that you occupy. So you can call me a liberal, you can call me brainwashed it means zero to me coming from someone who sits behind his internet name and does nothing but complain.

Seriously dude take your prozac and go outside and enjoy the sunshine. Better yet why not go smoke some weed with your boy hoosier4life. I am sure that you guys would have a lot to talk about over bong hits in his mom's basement.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 10:49:58 am
(Reading for last paragraph)

Atleast if I decide to smoke weed in my moms basement (as you say), I wont ask for a handout from the government, like Liberals would like me too.  Its a matter of personal choice if I decide to or not.

Hey Hooch, if your ever in town, call me :)

Liberals are so funny.
Hooch,

I think it is way too early to be deciding what President Obama will be remembered for.

He may well be remembered for the massive national debt and the "Hyperinflation" that you are preaching about all over this website, but I believe that we have smart people in place that will guide us through these troubled times. When someone with a PHD in economics (Bernanke) tells me that a bailout is needed I am going to go ahead and listen to them over some internet kook (that would be you) that would have let the financial system collapse.

As for the war... um hello we DESTROYED THEIR COUNTRY over false information. Do you really think we can just up and leave them with a chest bump and a "my bad"? Sure we can if we want the next Osama Bin Laden to come straight out of Sadr City or Bahgdad.

You can keep preaching that gobbeldy gook all you want about the election not being a landslide but as I said before a majority of people in this country wanted a change from the previous administration and it's policies. Last time I checked 53% is a majority.

As for me being brainwashed by the liberal media. I like to think that I am bright enough to see both sides of every subject. The world I live in is not as black and white as the place that you occupy. So you can call me a liberal, you can call me brainwashed it means zero to me coming from someone who sits behind his internet name and does nothing but complain.

Seriously dude take your prozac and go outside and enjoy the sunshine. Better yet why not go smoke some weed with your boy hoosier4life. I am sure that you guys would have a lot to talk about over bong hits in his mom's basement.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 10:51:23 am
delete this post.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 11:02:16 am
What is really sad about you Hoosier is that at your age you should be out tearing it up with your friends getting ready to start your new post-high school life. Instead you choose to sit in front of your computer talking the downfall of western civilization with a bunch of kooks. When you joined this site you were all hopped up on REI, but that seems to have devolved into being a radical right-wing nut job. Your last post outside of Random Ramblings was months ago. Has all that pot smoking (please spare us from the "if I choose to" garbage you are obviously a pot head) stalled your REI dreams, and now you are content arguing with anyone who disagrees with you to pass the time instead of getting off your butt and investing in real estate. Please do tell.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 09, 2009, 12:03:19 pm
Hoosier4life2005,

While I agree with others that doing drugs isn't a great course to be on at a young age... don't let your flow of opinion be stunted by what other people think of you spending your free time online expressing your opinion.

From what I can see of your stats... you post just as many times in Carlton Sheets, Beginners, Courses, Gurus, General Forum (112 posts), as you do in Random Ramblings  (113 posts) for a grand total of ALL your posting of 2 days, 7 hours and 54 minutes in over 2 YEARS of you posting...  252 posts over 761 days since you joined... an average of only .339 per day...  Hardly putting a dent on your potential activity on real estate...

Don't let others suppress your voice based on ThEIR assumptions...  They assume you are not also on this sight learning and exchanging ideas...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 12:14:09 pm
Actually, this may come as a surprise.  Ive never smoked pot, but I respect the decision for people to do it if they want.  My friends DO it, but I dont.  My future is worth to much to get involved in those kind of things.  Ive never even smoked a ciggarrete.

As for my goals, who cares if I post here alot, and not on the REI sections?  I just really like politics and the way the world works.  Ive become more interested in Stock Trading than I have REI, but I still come here to have fun.  I love argueing with Liberals, its fun. 




What is really sad about you Hoosier is that at your age you should be out tearing it up with your friends getting ready to start your new post-high school life. Instead you choose to sit in front of your computer talking the downfall of western civilization with a bunch of kooks. When you joined this site you were all hopped up on REI, but that seems to have devolved into being a radical right-wing nut job. Your last post outside of Random Ramblings was months ago. Has all that pot smoking (please spare us from the "if I choose to" garbage you are obviously a pot head) stalled your REI dreams, and now you are content arguing with anyone who disagrees with you to pass the time instead of getting off your butt and investing in real estate. Please do tell.


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 12:18:32 pm
Awww what a nice boost of support from the "Termite King"!!

Hoosier has not posted outside of the Rambling Rants forum in months.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 12:21:05 pm
I find posting about Politics and talking about my true love in life, IU basketball (Indiana Basketball) much more fun then talking about Real Estate.  Im going to college for nursing in 2 months.

I read over all the posting on the other sections, but really I have no questions about it.


I just love how christopher thinks im a pot head, just because my friends do it, and i respect the right to make the decison whether you want to smoke pot or not.

Thats all I have to say Christopher.  But, im probably still a pot-head in your eyes.(because i prefer self-responsibility and self-choice other than government intervention.)

Thanks CHRIS!



Hoosier4life2005,

While I agree with others that doing drugs isn't a great course to be on at a young age... don't let your flow of opinion be stunted by what other people think of you spending your free time online expressing your opinion.

From what I can see of your stats... you post just as many times in Carlton Sheets, Beginners, Courses, Gurus, General Forum (112 posts), as you do in Random Ramblings  (113 posts) for a grand total of ALL your posting of 2 days, 7 hours and 54 minutes in over 2 YEARS of you posting...  252 posts over 761 days since you joined... an average of only .339 per day...  Hardly putting a dent on your potential activity on real estate...

Don't let others suppress your voice based on ThEIR assumptions...  They assume you are not also on this sight learning and exchanging ideas...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 12:22:13 pm
You must love poor spelling as well because that seems to be the only thing you are good at. Why not enlighten us with some of your stock picks??

I would hardly qualify your posts as arguments. More like poorly worded and spelled "shout outs" to other ant-goverment kooks like positive outlook (why you chose this name with your negative personality I will never understand) and hooch.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 12:24:44 pm
With your poor spelling and grammer I am sure you will love your new moniker.

Loosier4Life.

IU basketball. Talk about a joke.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 12:28:10 pm
Ohh please, did I ever say I was making money for stocks? Jesus, you have to take a simple thing that I say and spin it to make it an attack on me.  My spelling is bad because im typing really fast (this is a message board).  

I can actually write very well, when I take time.  (Look at my posts from like 2 years ago, when I was young and tried to impress).

Ive been reading alot of Day Trading.  I am getting a better understanding at my age.  Tell me CHRISTOPHER, when you were 18, did you know EXACTLY what you wanted to do? Or did you change your mind?  If you changed your mind (like I did, from REI into Stock Trading)  How about you stop the attacks?  Jeez.

I gaurantee you, I will make money in this world, and unlike your fellow Liberals, I wont rely on the gov. to help me out at all.

Correct my grammer some more please?





You must love poor spelling as well because that seems to be the only thing you are good at. Why not enlighten us with some of your stock picks??

I would hardly qualify your posts as arguments. More like poorly worded and spelled "shout outs" to other ant-goverment kooks like positive outlook (why you chose this name with your negative personality I will never understand) and hooch.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 12:28:58 pm
With your poor spelling and grammer I am sure you will love your new moniker.

Loosier4Life.

IU basketball. Talk about a joke.

5 National Championships buddy... those are the facts.  Looks pretty good to me.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 12:33:31 pm
loosier4life

When was the last time you guys even had a winning record?

IU basketball is not even on the map anymore. But you obviously have a penchant for backing losers based on your political leanings so I at least your are true to your nature.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 12:41:05 pm
loosier4life

When was the last time you guys even had a winning record?

IU basketball is not even on the map anymore. But you obviously have a penchant for backing losers based on your political leanings so I at least your are true to your nature.

Dude, are you kidding me?  I know this isnt a sports forum or anything.. but jesus.  IU had their second losing season in 42 years last year, and that was because they only had 1 scholarship returning player.

What team you like?


IU = 3rd most national titles

UCLA=11
UK=7

Both UCLA and UNC have been caught cheating COUNTLESS times over the decades, and IU has won all their titles clean.  IU=best program with most titles without cheating.  Thank you. 

And as far as not being on the map anymore, IU just landed a top 5 recruting class, they will be back.

First, you call me a potsmoker, then my grammer, and now your bashing IU... tisk tisk, you are not on the top of my list my friend.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 01:37:41 pm
They won all their titles clean because of two guys both long gone. Funny how they were good after Bob Knight left for the exact amount of time his recruits were there. After that BIG drop off.

Do I need to remind you about your last head coach? Do I need to mention the NCAA probation. Do I need to mention SIX wins last year?

Seriously the years of IU basketball being a top tier team are over. Keep living in the past and gloating over your titles because that is all you have to look forward to.

I am a Big Ten (or as I think of it THE Big O and the little 10) fan myself so it is in my nature to laugh at IU.

Stick to rooting for your frat at Little 5 and you will do all right.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 09, 2009, 01:38:03 pm
"First, you call me a potsmoker, then my grammer, and now your bashing IU"

Hoosier4life2005, they're called straw men or red herring's, and used by liberals when they have nothing to say on the actual SUBSTANCE of other's posts... just used to TRY to make you look bad, but it does just the opposite for them...  ironically, just like their policies...

Opposite effect of what they promise...

Imagine how interesting it would be if they engaged on the topics and SUBSTANCE of the posts...  
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 01:46:56 pm
Ok well.. this isnt a sports board Chris, so even though your dead wrong about IU not being on the map anymore, and yes...

Kelvin Sampson was a bad hire (he made to many phone calls, which is bad, but he didnt pay anybody or give benigits., its a minor voilation).

Tom Crean is a great coach and recruiter, and will have us back on top.

But since this isnt a sports board, we should probably drop it. (even though your dead wrong, which you wont admit, because Liberals never do)

You never said what team you support either, but I dont expect you to, since they probably are a loser program thats never won.


PositiveOutlook, I agree.  Liberals like Christopher are just trying to make me look bad, by correcting my grammar and potsmoking(which ive never smoked, and even if I did, its a matter of self choice)  he thinks hes making me look dumb.  Its a freakin message board... im not typing out a resume.  Obviously im a good enough writer to get into college so isnt that all that matters?  Liberals, ugh, so funny.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 01:55:44 pm
Loosier4life,

Your right this isn't a sports board and in that fact you are lucky because I would CRUSH you if it were. Although I will give you credit for not deserting your team now that they are in the  :flush

At this point I am just here to poke fun at people like you and the Termite King AKA master of the cut and paste.

Now don't you need to get back to "Puff Puff Give"; I would hate for you to mess up the rotation.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 02:00:42 pm
You would crush me aye? Doubt it, and I havent missed a IU game in 13 years (since I was 5).  What team do you like Chris?

And with this pot thing... have you ever smoked pot? Just one time? Its a simple question, and you might not answer, because you never answer anything, except just say personal attacks.

If you havent, thats cool.  If you have, thats cool.  This is America, and were supposed to respect the right to self-choice and freedom of oppression from the government(which you liberals dont like to hear).


Loosier4life,

Your right this isn't a sports board and in that fact you are lucky because I would CRUSH you if it were. Although I will give you credit for not deserting your team now that they are in the  :flush

At this point I am just here to poke fun at people like you and the Termite King AKA master of the cut and paste.

Now don't you need to get back to "Puff Puff Give"; I would hate for you to mess up the rotation.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 02:06:35 pm
I bleed Scarlet and Gray.

As for the illegal drug usage I can honestly say no I have never done it for the simple reason that it is illegal.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 02:14:21 pm
Hoosier, don't stir the wildlife. Little Christopher is like a nasty mean spirited rabid monkey.

He tries to spin things which make perfect sense to him but we are talking about a radical fringe leftist. Reason and logic is completely out the window with his kind.

Don't worry abut it because we all know he is in desperation mode. He follows the exact same argumentative characteristics that all leftists follow when they have been backed into a corner and proven wrong.

I think it is way too early to be deciding what President Obama will be remembered for.

And this is why we are not paying you to think. :biggrin

And here are some more things that he is ALREADY being remembered for.

Obama is heartless hiding behind his rhetoric and attempts to twist the truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZVf_o1C2nI

Here is the truth of what he feels about killing babies that survived a botched abortion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDwNpgIUQc

Obamas going to bankrupt the coal industry intentionally for the fraud of man made global warming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdi4onAQBWQ&eurl=http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/

Obama wants to ban concealed weapons carry laws. In many states it is illegal to open carry so that means no one could take a gun anywhere, even back from the gun shop to your house.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-4jqZSEo0Q&eurl=http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/

Obama caught lying about handgun ban
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhL8aeIsTEo

Obama has a hard time showing up to work, he should have been fired by the people he is representing but they didn't know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah9W24oMIRc&eurl=http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/

Obamas minister and his hate speeches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=617eK2XIaLk

Obama agrees with the minister in his own words
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySM63ES8t4U

Rev Wright represents the best of what the black church has to offer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh7xMhsLnac&eurl=http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/2008_10.php

Obama on spreading the wealth and changing the constitution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck&eurl=http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/2008_10.php

Obama lied about his uncle liberating a concentration camp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhuXPpCGhhM

Obama and the troop surge, his willingness to loose the war to win the presidency
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4XY1SB7FFU

Obamas hero
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6544376472317805809&ei=o9aMSebYOoqsrAKL3_C8Cw&q=democrats%2C+racism&hl=en

It goes on and on.

I believe that we have smart people in place that will guide us through these troubled times. When someone with a PHD in economics (Bernanke) tells me that a bailout is needed I am going to go ahead and listen to them

Great one to be listening to. It's funny listening to the quacky but correct Ron Paul school Bernanke.
Federal Reserve = corruption and Bernanke is the top dog. You pick a dirty phd to listen to. Interesting an foolish.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/AwakeAndAriseOr/videos/21/

I am quite surprised that this is who you think is a legitimate source to listen to. He was questioned by congress a couple of months ago about where the trillions of dollars went that they printed. They were shocked that this kind of money could be printed and that the public has a right to know where it went as there was undeniable evidence that hundreds of billions went to foreign corporations and banks. When asked to disclose its location, Bernanke's simple answer was a firm NO.

You can keep preaching that gobbeldy gook all you want about the election not being a landslide but as I said before a majority of people in this country wanted a change from the previous administration and it's policies. Last time I checked 53% is a majority.

Don't change the subject. Far and Few Between does not = Over 150 million people.

And regarding the pot smoking, I DID SMOKE POT, but I didn't inhale.

 :eyecrazy
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 02:17:18 pm
Thats cool.. neither have I.(I respect the decision to be able to do it though)  But, I do get drunk occasionally, which is illegal, im under 21.  Im such a right-wing nutjob arent i???!?! ugh

Scarlet and Grey aye?? HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH, omg.. seriously.. to funny.  You sit here, and talk about how IU is on probation, and look at O$U.  Seriously, how many players do they pay?  (both basketball and football).  Didnt Obrien do something there that was bad?  I cant remember?  Wow, your a fan of the most corrupt program out there(aside from maybe USC).  No room to talk, whatsoever.



I bleed Scarlet and Gray.

As for the illegal drug usage I can honestly say no I have never done it for the simple reason that it is illegal.


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 02:23:43 pm
Loosier,

Coming from someone who's team is currently on probation your posting carries a lot of weight. Not.

Hooch,

Thank you for all your youtube videos. I will be sure to watch all of them when I have no life.

Seriously man...GET A LIFE.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 02:28:23 pm

Lol, good way to dodge my point man.  You seriously never address anything anybody says do you?  Man, your like somebody ide see from CNN.


Loosier,

Coming from someone who's team is currently on probation your posting carries a lot of weight. Not.

Hooch,

Thank you for all your youtube videos. I will be sure to watch all of them when I have no life.

Seriously man...GET A LIFE.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 02:36:20 pm
Loosier,

I am so sorry i did not realize that you had a point in your poorly punctuated, poorly spelled posting. Please enlighten me what it was as I don't speak stupid.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 02:38:24 pm

Scarlet and Grey aye?? HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH, omg.. seriously.. to funny.  You sit here, and talk about how IU is on probation, and look at O$U.  Seriously, how many players do they pay?  (both basketball and football).  Didnt Obrien do something there that was bad?  I cant remember?  Wow, your a fan of the most corrupt program out there(aside from maybe USC).  No room to talk, whatsoever.


Thats exactly what I said.. and you never addressed it.  You just move on with the personal attacks.   Can you really not read that?  Looks like the public schools failed on teaching you reading comprehention just as bad as they taught me to spell!



Loosier,

I am so sorry i did not realize that you had a point in your poorly punctuated, poorly spelled posting. Please enlighten me what it was as I don't speak stupid.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 02:43:18 pm
Hooch,
Thank you for all your youtube videos. I will be sure to watch all of them when I have no life.
Seriously man...GET A LIFE.


Copy and pasting Obamas lies did not take near as long as you spending ALL DAY on here insulting people in your weak attempts to show you are right.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 03:14:35 pm
I am not hear to force people to admit I am right.

Technically I am here to moderate comments and keep out the spam riff-raff. As for this thread and a couple of others I am just playing Dennis the Menace and poking the beehive with a stick. As I have said more times than I can count the opinion of a man (or woman) who hides behind a fake internet name and hides their email address means absolutely ZERO to me.

You can say what you want about FdJake he gives useful information. All you give is crappy youtube video links and conspiracy theorys regarding the end of western civilization.

p.s. I pulled out my handy dandy copy of the constitution and I can't find anything regarding assault rifles. Perhaps you could tear yourself away from youtube long enough to show me the passage that I am missing.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 09, 2009, 03:25:26 pm
"opinion of a man (or woman) who hides behind a fake internet name and hides their email address means absolutely ZERO to me. "

How does posting under the name Christopher W vs. CW change ANYTHING that you are saying?  That makes alot of sense... well, in that case post your home phone, address, and social security number...   :rolleyes

I know personally, I don't post personal information on the internet, BECAUSE I was a victim of ID Fraud... go through that once, and I guarantee you, you will more likely than not stop posting your personal information on the internet...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 09, 2009, 03:46:22 pm
"I pulled out my handy dandy copy of the constitution and I can't find anything regarding assault rifles."

It's a good thing they did not enumerate what "arms" were... otherwise, we would be stuck with muskets, while the criminals who buy whatever they want would still be doing the same...   :banghead

You will also not find anything about breaking CONTRACT LAW, LOANING MONEY to private enterprise, and the list goes on...


"home phone, address, and social security number"

What you provided was NOT what was asked for now, was it?   You'll note that what you posted contains NONE of what I posted for NOR an explanation of how posting Christopher W vs. CW change ANYTHING you are saying...  You posted your business info, the only thing personal is your name...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 03:55:18 pm
My name is on there, my cell phone is on there ( I have no home phone), and no particular address was specified so I used my work address. So I did give everything that was asked for other than my SS#.

So because over 200 years ago they were not specific about what particular type of "arms" were covered you think that gives you the right to carry whatever type of weapon you want?? That thinking is ridiculous. Times have changed Hooch. No private citizen needs to own an assault rifle. There is absolutely no purpose for it. As I said before if you are in a situation where you need an assault rifle for protection then you are either a criminal or in the wrong place at the wrong time in which case you are screwed. Those weapons need to be off the streets. Period.

Perhaps you could enlighten me on the uses of a personal assault rifle if you feel differently.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 04:06:00 pm
I agree with you on the contract law, but as for loaning money  to Private Enterprise... What else was the govt supposed to do? Seriously were they supposed to watch the financial system crumble? Were they supposed to let the Auto Industry shut down? The loss of jobs would have been staggering. The set-backs to the industry would have lasted for years.

For those of you on this board who are self-employed. Buh-bye. For those of you on this board that use a HELOC for ANY expenses (you know who you are). Buh-bye. We are talking total financial chaos here. Bank closures, life savings gone. Like I said in another posting. When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT says we need a bail-out I am going to believe him. I am shocked at the level of misunderstanding of where we were headed that is rampant on this board.

Since you do so much reading and you are so informed Mr. Positive Outlook I challenge you to post what your solution to the TOTAL COLLAPSE OF THE FINANCIAL SYTEM would have been. Please enlighten us to what the alternative was?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 04:07:13 pm
So because over 200 years ago they were not specific about what particular type of "arms" were covered you think that gives you the right to carry whatever type of weapon you want?? That thinking is ridiculous. Times have changed Hooch. No private citizen needs to own an assault rifle. There is absolutely no purpose for it. As I said before if you are in a situation where you need an assault rifle for protection then you are either a criminal or in the wrong place at the wrong time in which case you are screwed. Those weapons need to be off the streets. Period.

Perhaps you could enlighten me on the uses of a personal assault rifle if you feel differently.


Ok, I will enlighten you. Please tell me what the reason stated for having the right to bear arms is? To form a militia.

The founding fathers knew from past experience that there are times where the average citizen must overthrow their government. We are well on our way. Please explain to me how to do this with pistols, pocket knives and bows.

Now lets take this for an example. Saddam was mass murdering the Kurds. It was legal for each person to own as much as one machine gun. The Kurds were unable to fight their government attack helicopters so they paid the ultimate price of death. And that was with machine guns.

Now lets look at the war between Russia and Al Qaeda. We provided them with the appropriate equipment (surface to air missiles) and they were successfully able to overcome them by the loss of millions of dollars of tanks, helicopters and planes.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 04:20:03 pm
Um yeah, that is exactly what we all need assault rifles for.

I think what you meant to say was when the ATF comes to talk to your "preacher" about his 10 year old wife you want to be able to defend him.

Seriously Hooch you are one scary dude. I can honestly say I hope you live FAR AWAY from Dallas, Texas.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 04:25:03 pm
I think what you meant to say was when the ATF comes to talk to your "preacher" about his 10 year old wife you want to be able to defend him.

What are you talking about, this makes absolutely no since. What does the ATF have to do with a persons right to bear arms?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 04:26:54 pm
The reason we have the 2nd amendment is to stop tyranny from the government.  Tyranny in the gov is happening right now(not obeying the constitution)... something may need to happen.

Thats all im sayin.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 04:27:44 pm
Thank you for explaining that to Chris Hoosier. Some people around here are a little "thick".
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 04:30:14 pm
What it means is that you are completely off your rocker like the Branch Davidians were when the ATF came to talk to David Koresh about his stash of ASSAULT RIFLES. Those idiots fired on Federal agents and their Messiah burned them to the ground.

If you are honestly looking to join a militia to overthrow the government then then you are much crazier than I ever gave you credit for and I already thought you were bats**t nuts.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 09, 2009, 04:35:43 pm
Well said Hooch...


Christopher...

"My name is on there, my cell phone is on there ( I have no home phone), and no particular address was specified so I used my work address. So I did give everything that was asked for other than my SS#."

So your PERSONAL Home number, and your PERSONAL social security number was asked for, but you thought I was asking for your BUSINESS address, when it was sandwhiched between two PERSONAL pieces of info????

OK, so as not to dodge it, let's try again... provide your PERSONAL ADDRESS and your PERSONAL social security number...  if not, WHY NOT???

And yet, you STILL haven't supported your original assertion, so I'll ask it AGAIN -  how does posting Christopher W vs. CW change ANYTHING you are saying???


"Perhaps you could enlighten me on the uses of a personal assault rifle if you feel differently."

The more types of guns your cede to the governent,  the more they will take...
 ESPECIALLY when the majority of assault rifle death are due to LAW ENFORCEMENT.  Once they outlaw the broad assault weapons, they will continue to classify more and more of then as such...

People buy guns for many reasons...  my question to you Christopher is do you know how many assault rifle deaths occur each year?

Keep in mind, these guns are already heavily regulated, restricted, taxed alot more, and require special licenses to have them...

ALL bullets kill people... and the people who do it illegally will still CONTINUE to do it illegally even IF you were to outllaw them...  knives kill MORE people each years than guns.... are you saying we should outlaw those too...  EVERYONE has access to those... no license needed...   :banghead
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 04:39:07 pm
What is amazing is that many of you are accusing the Govt of tyranny for trying to get us out of a very serious time in the history of this country. This entire country almost went down the tubes, and all you can complain about is "Socialism".

What about the tyranny of the last 8 years. The erosion of personal freedoms? The Patriot act. The War in Iraq being started on falsehood (and please save me all of your cut and paste Positive outlook we both know information was falsified). Wiretaps without warrants...nobody has said a word about that, but heaven forbid somebody gets a free hand-out from the Government and you are all up in arms. Has anyone here ever filed for Bankruptcy? What is that? That is a free pass from the Government to walk away from your responsibilities and start over.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 04:56:11 pm
Actually, many, maybe not here, but many, have been complaining(like I have) about the Patroit act, education reform(at the Federal level) and the war, for a long time before Obama.  Personal freedoms have been dissapearing for along time, but are happening at a much more obvious/faster rate now.


What is amazing is that many of you are accusing the Govt of tyranny for trying to get us out of a very serious time in the history of this country. This entire country almost went down the tubes, and all you can complain about is "Socialism".

What about the tyranny of the last 8 years. The erosion of personal freedoms? The Patriot act. The War in Iraq being started on falsehood (and please save me all of your cut and paste Positive outlook we both know information was falsified). Wiretaps without warrants...nobody has said a word about that, but heaven forbid somebody gets a free hand-out from the Government and you are all up in arms. Has anyone here ever filed for Bankruptcy? What is that? That is a free pass from the Government to walk away from your responsibilities and start over.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 04:56:27 pm
I never, not one single time said that the Bush administration was not corrupt. In Fact, I said the exact opposite. They all need to be thrown out off office, peacefully at first, but they will not give up the "gravy train" that they are on so it likely will have to be by force.

If you are honestly looking to join a militia to overthrow the government then then you are much crazier than I ever gave you credit for and I already thought you were bats**t nuts.

You are correct about me being crazier than you thought. And this statement WOULD be correct if the government CONTINUES to act against the WILL of the people. There was a time 6 ot 7 years ago where I would have said that there is no way I will ever really need my right to bear arms for a millitia.  

And I can assure you that the people are beginning to rise. You will first see peaceful protests. They will last for a few years, then small militia groups will form (like Obamas best friend William Ayres group, the Weathermen Underground) They will attack the government just like Obama's buddy did.

If the government continues it's course it will fuel membership in these groups and the next thing you will know we will have a large group set on overthrowing the government. This is the same process that all governments loose power by. All of the politicians will be tried for treason (which is punishable by death).

Look what happened in Iran with the Shah when Jimmy Carter tried to protect him. Look at the rise of Castro. Look at the rise of Hitlar. Corruption will only go on for so long before the people demand the end. The unfortunate part of this is it often leads to the rise of a dictator with even more corruption.


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 05:01:02 pm
Couldnt have said it better....



I never, not one single time said that the Bush administration was not corrupt. In Fact, I said the exact opposite. They all need to be thrown out off office, peacefully at first, but they will not give up the "gravy train" that they are on so it likely will have to be by force.

If you are honestly looking to join a militia to overthrow the government then then you are much crazier than I ever gave you credit for and I already thought you were bats**t nuts.

You are correct about me being crazier than you thought. And this statement WOULD be correct if the government CONTINUES to act against the WILL of the people. There was a time 6 ot 7 years ago where I would have said that there is no way I will ever really need my right to bear arms for a millitia.  

And I can assure you that the people are beginning to rise. You will first see peaceful protests. They will last for a few years, then small militia groups will form (like Obamas best friend William Ayres group, the Weathermen Underground) They will attack the government just like Obama's buddy did.

If the government continues it's course it will fuel membership in these groups and the next thing you will know we will have a large group set on overthrowing the government. This is the same process that all governments loose power by. All of the politicians will be tried for treason (which is punishable by death).

Look what happened in Iran with the Shah when Jimmy Carter tried to protect him. Look at the rise of Castro. Look at the rise of Hitlar. Corruption will only go on for so long before the people demand the end. The unfortunate part of this is it often leads to the rise of a dictator with even more corruption.



Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 05:01:35 pm
"As for the assault rifles. My point is why does any PRIVATE CITIZEN need an assault rifle. But as you are so prone to do you can never see the gray matter all you do is look at black and white. Just wait until one of your children gets struck by a stray bullet from a drive-by with an assault rifle and we will see how stiff your upper lip is. People like you are a freaking joke."

People like you who wish to S**t on our constitution are a disgrace to our country. How about that? Right back to you.

It is you who is the joke. NO GUN TURNS A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN INTO A MURDER.

Guns kill people like Rosie O'Donells fork made her fat.

Guns kill people like Cameras Cause Pornography.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:03:48 pm
And the reason it changes things is because no matter what my screen name is at least people can call me out on something if I step out of line as RookieNYC has done in the past. I don't hide behind "Identity Theft" even though your name is nowhere in your email address.

You and Hooch can sit and hide behind your computers and spout your drivel with no reprisal other than some nasty post responses. Why not be a real man Positive and post your email address. And don't give me that crap about identity theft. Trust me at this point in your life nobody and I do mean NOBODY wants to be you. "

"Lets see how much time can I waste not making money on my termite infested rental property while I let the biggest buying opportunity in years ( the combination of low rates and the 8K tax credit) pass me by so I can teach myself to rehab even though I am supposed to be a contractor. But hey my Realtor has advised me on how to do things and he wouldn't lie to me would he?"
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:10:53 pm
Hooch,

I am not doing anything to the constitution other than intepreting it. Times have changed Hooch. What was written 200 years ago does not necessarily apply anymore. That is why the Constitution has been amended. Get with the program Hooch we are living in 2009 not 1775 anymore.

The fact that you cannot even see my side of the argument shows me that you and Positive are cut from the same cloth. Black and White only nowhere in between. No room for reason; it is my way or your a commie.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 05:13:05 pm
He is slipping back into the realm of being a complete looser again because he knows he is wrong.
We all know this is what libs do when they are cornered.

"""You and Hooch can sit and hide behind your computers and spout your drivel with no reprisal other than some nasty post responses."""

I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm just not thick in the skull like you are. Posting your personal information. You aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are ya?

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 05:15:40 pm
"""Get with the program Hooch we are living in 2009 not 1775 anymore."""

We are quickly reverting to April 12, 1861 and if we get there we WILL need our CONSTITUTIONAL FREEDOMS

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:17:14 pm
Hooch,

I am in sales. My personal information is out there for everyone to see. All someone has to do is look in the Dallas appraisal district and they will see my name.  It is already out there fool.

You on the other hand are happy to post on other web-sites using your real email address but on this web-site where your really crazyness comes out you hide behind your name. You are are a straight up P***Y Hooch and I am calling you on it.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:20:52 pm
Hooch,

Thank you for being there to protect us blind government controlled mice, but I think I will stick with the way things are going as they have worked out pretty well for me.

And as you say " I may not be the sharpest tool", but I am definitely smarter than you.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 05:21:19 pm
Since were all sharing information.. Im Joshie .  I like long walks while sipping on pineapple juice.  I like making dance videos with my friend, especially with our shirts off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijc9SXgRbLc

Here is one we made a while back.

Unfortunetly, I have my shirt on at this video.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:27:09 pm
Dude, I am totally cool with you coming out to your friends on this forum, but I don't think Hooch and Positive will be okay with it.

I can't image either one of them being open minded enough to accept your life choices. especially if it does not match their same choices. I know Positive is married, but I can't image any woman could put up with stinky for very long.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 05:31:28 pm

LOL....


Dude, I am totally cool with you coming out to your friends on this forum, but I don't think Hooch and Positive will be okay with it.

I can't image either one of them being open minded enough to accept your life choices. especially if it does not match their same choices. I know Positive is married, but I can't image any woman could put up with stinky for very long.


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:35:00 pm
I have to watch your video on my iphone. It is pretty funny. My son makes the same videos with his friends with shirts on. They also like to flex and stuff like that in the videos. What is the deal with it? He thinks it is hilarious, but I worry about creepy pedophiles looking at that stuff. Especially on myspace. I am being totally serious. Have you ever had any creeps text or email you?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 05:37:07 pm
Are you really bald at 18 or do you just shave your head?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 05:37:53 pm
Naw Chris, nobodys ever commented me with perverted things.  If they did, I would probably take it down. lol

And.. I went bald for basketball, and I never changed it back.  I was gonna stay bald because my mom hates it but, nah. heh.  When you shave your head tho, its hard to grow hair back out though! It feels so good when your bald!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 05:41:15 pm
I am in sales.

And I own many companies but am primarily a marketing consultant for my ad agency and real estate investor. Completely irrelevant to what we are talking about.

My personal information is out there for everyone to see. All someone has to do is look in the Dallas appraisal district and they will see my name.

Yes, because you gave it to everyone dips**t. My God, are you really THAT thick?

Sorry, not an excuse for your idiocy.

You on the other hand are happy to post on other web-sites using your real email address but on this web-site where your really crazyness comes out you hide behind your name.

Sorry Jacka** but my real "crazyness" is always out.

You have been dragged out on the floor and exposed (thought process based on no reason or logic) and now you are mad about it. Well, go cry to it to someone who cares Chris. I'm not the "metrosexual" type of guy and have trouble empathizing with you. :biggrin

Thank you for being there to protect us blind government controlled mice, but I think I will stick with the way things are going as they have worked out pretty well for me.

I'm not interested in protecting you.

And as you say " I may not be the sharpest tool", but I am definitely smarter than you.

Fat chance.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 05:44:20 pm
Chris, I'm really not trying to be a pain in the A** and I do respect your off the wall opinions, after all, they're just like an a**hole, everyone's got one. BUT if you ATTACK me you should expect to be ATTACKED back.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 05:47:13 pm
See... were all starting to get along together.

And Ide like to think posting my video here was a major factor is that.

I didnt want to post it, but I did for the sake of the board!


 :beer :beer :beer
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: fdjake on June 09, 2009, 05:52:49 pm
Chris,

Maybe the Termite King and the Grand Dragon will form their own militia based on the concept of freedom for all TERMITES and @SSHOLES!!!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 09, 2009, 06:43:00 pm
Hooch,

I post all over the Internet with my real name and information. My address and cell phone number are public knowledge. I am not afraid. Good luck trying to google me. I share a name with a famous dead rapper so inputting my name will get you ZERO information about me and I am a lifelock subscriber so I feel I am pretty safe.

In regards to your posting... How have I been persay "exposed" and why am I angry about it. I want people to have my name and phone number. I am in sales bonehead. Please call me.

I don't hide behind my screen name here on this web-site like you do, and then go other places and use my real email address. Which is exactly what YOU do. You are a coward and a P***y. 

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 09, 2009, 07:40:23 pm
I post all over the Internet with my real name and information. My address and cell phone number are public knowledge. I am not afraid. Good luck trying to google me.......I want people to have my name and phone number. I am in sales bonehead.

So you're in sales and you need people to be able to find you BUT, good luck GOOGLING YOU. That makes a lot of since. And, if I wanted to find information about you I very easily could. Trust Me. I am FAR more capable on a computer than you and I will promise you that.

and I am a lifelock subscriber so I feel I am pretty safe.

What is lifelock going to do for you as they only deal with fraud "bonehead"? My point is that you run your mouth and one day you will be running it to some psychopath that will show up at your house! You never know what could happen between you and someone on the internet lets say 10 or 20 years from now. It doesn't go away man. Come on, use your head and delete your post.

I have run into crazies like that! I always speak my mind and trust me, IT CAN GET YOU IN TROUBLE!

I had some nutcase stalking me and sending me emails that made me realize that he was watching me. Full of information like what kind of dog I have and the fact that I bring my dog to work with me. Fortunately I almost always have my Springfield Armory Subcompact SD 9mm on me and I won't hesitate to use it if I think my life is endangered.

And no, I don't have it on me because I am paranoid. I have it on me because I am a low income landlord and deal in the junker business. Some of my properties are in gangland and some are in decent blue collar neighborhoods. I have had my houses shot up by drive byes and sometimes I get in a precarious situation where I am better off with it. Fortunately Virginia is an open carry state so when I am in those areas I expose it which keeps everyone thinking real clearly.

I don't hide behind my screen name here on this web-site like you do, and then go other places and use my real email address. Which is exactly what YOU do. You are a coward and a P***y.

So please explain to me how I am a coward and a P***y. Because if you are saying that I am afraid to meet you somewhere, you are wrong and I can prove that. Please go ahead and clarify that because it sounds like your mouth is getting you into trouble again.



Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 09, 2009, 09:30:04 pm
I know things get a little heated when we're discussing politics, religion, etc.  However, could we discuss these things without the personal attacks?  PLEASE!  We're all friends here!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 09, 2009, 09:51:10 pm
Most of it started by the Lefties on this board, but yeah, I agree.  Personal attacks make me feel bad   :(   lolz.


I know things get a little heated when we're discussing politics, religion, etc.  However, could we discuss these things without the personal attacks?  PLEASE!  We're all friends here!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 09, 2009, 09:54:31 pm
Man just when I was really diggin texas(cause I thought they'd be 1st to get out the union)then I see there's liberals there(christopher).How's utah lookin????
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 10, 2009, 08:21:55 am
Hooch,

You make some good points in regards to stalkers and crazies. Thank you for the advice. And I do mean that.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 10, 2009, 08:24:12 am
Christopher,

Aside from the fact that you never answered how using Christopher W vs. CW changes ANYTHING in your posts...

My point in asking you for your personal information was not so you would actually post it, but so you would do like you did with your social security number and not provide it... and the point would have been additionally made that your personal information has nothing to do with your posts, and if someone wants to contact you, they can PM you and you can also post, and if you want to take communications past that point, so be it...  So everyone is available to everyone on this site, via posts & PM, so there is no need to provide personal information...

If you were that confident in your Lifelock subscription, you would have also posted your social security #, but DO NOT DO THIS...

I would recommend you remove that post that shows your personal information, as if you do a Google search on just your address, I think you'll be surprised the amount of information that comes up on you...  Your name, associations, websites (huffington post donation list), etc...

ID Theft is just a puzzle...  every little bit of information gives them access...  and even with a lifelock subscription, that doesn't remove the inconveniences associated with ID theft all to prove a non-existent point of somehow posting your real name vs. a moniker (which the majority of people use when posting here and elsewhere)... somehow changes your posts...

This is in addition to Hooch's point of the crazies out there...  

What you do with your personal information is your responsibility, but I would suggest removing that personal information...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 10, 2009, 08:42:58 am
I'm not sure if it's that risky if someone gets your home address. I've heard people say to shred the address label on every piece of junk mail, but I think that's extreme. Of course I shred any financial documents that I'm throwing away, or anything with a SS# on it.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 10, 2009, 08:49:36 am
Outlook,

My point is I say whatever I want when I want and if someone has a problem with it they can contact me directly. It has happened before.

I am very confident in my lifelock protection, but who knows what technology will emerge in the future and I  may be crazy, but I am not stupid. I also use a credit protection service that I get free with my checking account that updates me immediately by email and text if my credit report is accessed. Trust me I work with credit everyday and I see what can happen to people. I also carry insurance protection against ID theft.

I agree that people do put way to much of their information out there. I always wonder what happens to the documents when mortgage companies go out of business. I knew people in the past that would keep full copies of customers files in their garage at home in case they needed information at home (this was before most mortgages became paperless). What do you think happened to that stuff on garage clean out day. Straight into the garbage. Hundreds of documents with socials, birthdates, tax returns, copies of DL's. Everything.

Not me on the Huffington Post. Not even sure what it is.


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 10, 2009, 09:04:51 am
I'm not sure if it's that risky if someone gets your home address. I've heard people say to shred the address label on every piece of junk mail, but I think that's extreme. Of course I shred any financial documents that I'm throwing away, or anything with a SS# on it.

Fraud is not the point. Violent crimes against you or your family is the point. We are talking about a nut job that uses your address off the internet to come by and say hi. Those who run their mouths like many people here are better off not letting the psychos know their addresses. I have personal experience with this and basically had to tell the guy that I am looking forward to him showing up at my house based on his threats to murder me because in Virginia I can legally kill him as I can verify that I felt my life was endangered due to his emails. And that I can't wait to put a bullet in his eye. He still didn't stop so I changed my email, did a search on myself and spend a whole day completely re arranging things, closing accounts, etc. so this wouldn't happen again. Eventually the freak went away.



Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 10, 2009, 09:09:39 am
Christopher,

And yes, anyone can contact you via PM or posting on this site... and if you choose to reply and provide whatever information you want, it is your decision...  we ALL can say whatever we want and if someone has a problem with it they can also contact us directly via PM...

My point was, and is still unanswered (but since the point has been made, time to let it go after this) was that whether you use Christopher W vs. CW, it does not change ANYTHING related to your posting...  IOW, a red herring...

Huffington Post.... I would check into it... as someone may be donating in your name (and that could be anyone)...

Lifelock will not protect you from your bank account being drained with online purchases...  that's what happened to us, and it was quite an eye opener... all you need is the information to input...  It will also not protect you from the crazies... considering you are in mortgage financing, and ALOT of people are pissed at banks, you might want to consider minimizing ANY risk to you or your family...  The percentages are low that something would happen but why take a chance?

The kicker is, the bank said THEY were the victim (did nothing and would not even file a police report)... we did ALL the work in getting our funds back (which took almost a week getting affadavits, closing accounts, new checks, etc...) and it was a major PITA...  When you find yourself vunerable like that, you either learn from it or you don't...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 10, 2009, 09:34:43 am
Positive,

 Let me spell it out for you slowly.

No matter what name I post under my contact information is free for everyone to see. So no matter what I say or type if someone does not like it they have the ability to call or email or text me and let me know. There fore I should be very truthful in what I say and do. DO YOU GET IT NOW?


You on the other hand can sit and hide behind your fake internet name and post all your abortion rhetoric and your anti-government rants, and no one has any ability to call you out on it. No one can track you down no matter what you say. So you are free to post whatever you want without fear of retribution or being turned into the police or whatever. Once again...DO YOU GET IT NOW?

Damn dude and Hooch accuses me of being thick. :banghead









Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 10, 2009, 11:13:04 am
I was stalked once, briefly. This was in the days before internet (DBI  :smile). I'd met this person at a discussion group I was going to I didn't know this person well at all and they started calling my work obsessively. When I didn't answer the phone and I left work at the end of the day he was standing outside in front of the exit waiting for me. I don't even know if he was gay, or what the deal was, he just said he gets fixated on people (male or female) from time to time. He quickly disappeared and I never heard from him again.

I knew another person for a about a year and found out they had stalked someone at the school we attended and was forced to withdraw by the school in order to avoid a big scene. There was a restraining order involved.

Unfortunately I've found that some of the most unbalanced people I've met have been people I already knew for a while, not strangers. I just didn't know enough about them.


I'm not sure if it's that risky if someone gets your home address. I've heard people say to shred the address label on every piece of junk mail, but I think that's extreme. Of course I shred any financial documents that I'm throwing away, or anything with a SS# on it.

Fraud is not the point. Violent crimes against you or your family is the point. We are talking about a nut job that uses your address off the internet to come by and say hi. Those who run their mouths like many people here are better off not letting the psychos know their addresses. I have personal experience with this and basically had to tell the guy that I am looking forward to him showing up at my house based on his threats to murder me because in Virginia I can legally kill him as I can verify that I felt my life was endangered due to his emails. And that I can't wait to put a bullet in his eye. He still didn't stop so I changed my email, did a search on myself and spend a whole day completely re arranging things, closing accounts, etc. so this wouldn't happen again. Eventually the freak went away.




Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 10, 2009, 11:29:33 am
Oooh that sucks Positive. Do you know how they were able to get your bank info--through a debit card?

Years ago I was down in the Miami area for a few days and about a month after I came back there about $100 worth of crap charged to my credit card which I'd never authorized. Someone had stolen the CC information when I'd used it a restaurant (or somewhere) down there. But that was a piece of cake to get fixed because it was a credit card.



Christopher,

A
Lifelock will not protect you from your bank account being drained with online purchases...  that's what happened to us, and it was quite an eye opener... all you need is the information to input... 


Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 10, 2009, 11:48:33 am
Positive,



Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 10, 2009, 12:33:30 pm
Hooch,

 
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hooch on June 10, 2009, 01:34:06 pm
.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 10, 2009, 02:13:36 pm
Hooch

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 10, 2009, 02:42:29 pm
Were we talking about CZARS?  I heard on the news last night that they were talking about a pay CZAR.  Is the government now going to decide how much I can make?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 10, 2009, 02:45:40 pm
please tell me your joking

Quote from: propertymanager l
nk=topic=43240.msg206214#msg206214 date=1244662949
I heard on the news last night that they were talking about a pay CZAR. 
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: propertymanager on June 10, 2009, 02:49:47 pm
Here's a link to the pay czar!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/business/11pay.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 10, 2009, 03:20:52 pm
What will they think of next?

I guess if they own more than a 50% stake in these companies now it's their right to do this, but the effect would be mostly symbolic.

Here's a link to the pay czar!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/business/11pay.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 10, 2009, 03:33:44 pm
Only the beginning of "change" you'll be forced into.We really need all these thieves and tax cheats gone,then put them on trial to make examples out of them starting with mr. fraud obama.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 10, 2009, 04:09:28 pm
On the other hand, AIG and friends caused so much trouble with their greed and bad decisions. Then they asked to be bailed out. If the federal government is going to own an 80% stake in AIG, why wouldn't they wan to manage and control what goes on there? Anyone would. But I think creating a new Pay Czar with a big salary might be going overboard.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 10, 2009, 04:16:36 pm
The pay Czar receives no compensation from the Government.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 10, 2009, 06:47:02 pm
"Let me spell it out for you slowly."

No matter what name I post under my contact information is free for everyone to see. So no matter what I say or type if someone does not like it they have the ability to call or email or text me and let me know. There fore I should be very truthful in what I say and do. DO YOU GET IT NOW?"


No, Christopher, because no matter how "slowly" you spell it out for us, it is the same inanity...  because ANYONE can contact me or others on this forum via posting OR PM'ing...  Up until this point, your phone is listed as a marketing tool, which I don't believe any begrudges you for, but to pretend that it is there for any other reason, is absurd...

On top of this, just like with FDjake... you challenged my integrity by calling me a liar... I asked you to PROVE it using my words from my posts, and you did not, just like FDjake didn't... so your "truthful" statement rings quite hollow...

"...no one has any ability to call you out on it. No one can track you down no matter what you say."

They absolutely CAN call me or anyone else out on anything, publicly by posting, or privately by PM'ing... As far as "tracking me down" goes...  the only reason this would be necessary, is if I did something illegal... are you sayin that I have?...  If you want me to expose my family to the ID thieves or crazies out there for your sense of self-rightousness, that is your lack of judgement, not mine... I will do ANYTHING to protect my family, especiallly common sense things like not sharing personal information on the Internet, which internet EXPERTS causion EVERYONE not to do INCLUDING kids...  basic information....


"So you are free to post whatever you want without fear of retribution or being turned into the police or whatever."

That is where you are wrong, and as a moderator, you should know better...  The owner of the site, and I assume moderators, can view my email, and even if they couldn't, basic understanding of the internet allows for IP tracking...  Maybe you are just misinformed, but you are incorrect on this...

So if I do anything illegal in your mind, please feel free to call the police....  :rolleyes

It is interesting you are ready to report people to the POLICE for free speech... As a moderator, you should be more careful with your words...

"Once again...DO YOU GET IT NOW?"

Yes, I get it, you are just avoiding the obvious, as ANYONE can contact ANYONE on this site, whether it be via posting (public) or PM'ing (private), or in your example of calling the POLICE for people exercising their free speech, the owner has access to the email AND the POLICE have access to IP Tracking...

BTW, if you really have a problem with people not posting their email addresses, you as a moderator can bring it up with the owner or the other moderators...  something tells me that your reasoning will fall flat...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 10, 2009, 06:58:19 pm
"Te pay Czar receives no compensation from the Government."

And this makes it right?
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 10, 2009, 09:49:28 pm
Pay czar does'nt get paid?The car czar sure must get paid well since he's building a $15mill beach house.My point in starting this topic was the move away from democracy is these czars.They have power over all & only answer to the president,this does'nt scare the hell out of yall?You see we elect people to represent us and now they have no say.Come on,wake up.He's bad for our economy and our country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 11, 2009, 07:27:34 am
sellnbama, it's a good volunteer job to put on their resume for a young college grad who can't get their foot in the door in this job market:

2009 - 2012   Pay Czar, US Government (Internship)
Determined the fates of failing companies. Used Excel "scenario" feature to decide what salaries CEOs should receive. Created Powerpoint presentations for Timothy Geithner. Utilized organizational and filing skills. Employed interpersonal communication skills to order food and refreshments for high level staff meetings from "Lucky Li's Carryout".




Pay czar does'nt get paid?The car czar sure must get paid well since he's building a $15mill beach house.My point in starting this topic was the move away from democracy is these czars.They have power over all & only answer to the president,this does'nt scare the hell out of yall?You see we elect people to represent us and now they have no say.Come on,wake up.He's bad for our economy and our country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 09:43:14 am
Positive,

You don't agree that the majority of stockholders in a company should have a say in what their top executives get paid? It only makes sense. Instead of looking at it as more government why not look at it as a majority stockholder looking out for the company?

Nothing is going to make neo-cons happy right now. If the President caps earnings on the officers of companies that we the people of this country have bailed out he is a socialist. If he does nothing all he hears about is AIG bonuses and throwing money at a problem with no oversight.

So which is it? The bad solution or the worse solution? There is no winning solution at this point.





Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: Hoosier4life2005 on June 11, 2009, 10:32:23 am
Taking the bonuses away from the AIG execs. was unconstitutional.  That probably doesnt matter to a Liberal like you though.  What law did the AIG execs break?  There isnt one.


Positive,

You don't agree that the majority of stockholders in a company should have a say in what their top executives get paid? It only makes sense. Instead of looking at it as more government why not look at it as a majority stockholder looking out for the company?

Nothing is going to make neo-cons happy right now. If the President caps earnings on the officers of companies that we the people of this country have bailed out he is a socialist. If he does nothing all he hears about is AIG bonuses and throwing money at a problem with no oversight.

So which is it? The bad solution or the worse solution? There is no winning solution at this point.






Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 10:33:47 am
"You don't agree that the majority of stockholders in a company should have a say in what their top executives get paid?"

Well, that's not the case here, Christopher... it will be the "czar" who reports to the President ONLY (not the people) or the President himself unilaterally making that decision...  No oversight, NONE... if the stockholders made that decision, I would have absolutely no problem with that, as the MARKET would be dictating that NOT the government...  Do you think that now that WE THE PEOPLE as the stockholders in GM, etc. we will get ANY say in these stockholders decisions?  So that really is irrelavent as a description of the situation...

"If the President caps earnings on the officers of companies that we the people of this country have bailed out he is a socialist."

No, Chrisopther, he is a socialist because that is what he is practicing...

so·cial·ism (sō'shə-lĭz'əm) n.
 
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

3. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

4. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.



We, as a people, can't set a cap on the TRILLIONS of dollars the government is borrowing and spending and printing money to boot, devaluing the dollar, creating inflation, and INCREASING oil prices as it is traded in dollars, which will INCREASE what people are spending on gas...  and who do you think this will HURT the most?  The very people they SAY they are trying to help!  But the UNIONS, whose people make MORE than the average person, gets bailed out along with the company AT OUR EXPENSE...  it's absolute lunacy!

You want to cap Execiutive pay, but DON'T want to cap the amount the POLITICIANS are borrowing and spending AGAINST our own self-interests, which causes MUCH more misery to EVERY economic level... quite a contradiction...

The more POLITICIANS pretend they know what they are doing with regards to business, when MOST of them have never even run a company or employed people, responsible for payroll et al, the WORSE it gets all around...  They've already show they do NOT know how to do this, as they have already wasted BILLIONS of the money from the MULTIPLE spending plans they passed... and the answer is giving them more money and more power???

This is simply NOT government's role...  It is power NEVER provided by our Constitution, but literally TAKEN by politicians (ALL), AGAINST the very reason the country was founded, and DESTROYS peoples lives in the process, financially ENSLAVING them to the government in the coming TAX INREASES for EVERY economic level, BECAUSE of their bad decisions... 

Now, after they have ONCE AGAIN demonstrated that they can literraly WASTE BILLIONS of dollars at a time, with the government being the WORST steward of money provided to them, and their handling of the housing crisis, we want to put them in charge of nationalized healthcare all under the guise of saving money????   :banghead

It is proven, over and over again, that with very few exceptions, that whenever the government meddles with the private sector things get WORSE...  if a company CANNOT make it, they should go out of business...  it's a good thing the government didn't subsidize the horse and buggy market...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 10:41:01 am
BTW, congratulations on your first insult-free post in a while...   :beer  See, we can discuss and disagree without them...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 11:08:03 am
Christopher, I would ask that you consider the motiviation behind the whole executive pay issue... If the government wants to put a condition on companies who receive TARP money regarding executive pay, as long as they know that BEFORE they accept the money, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that... but not are they doing it AFTER the fact, but are refusing to let banks pay back the money... add to that, the Dem's want to EXPAND this across the board, even if they did not take TARP money...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Administration-Rein-in-pay-apf-15500519.html?.v=6

From the article - "On Wednesday, it set pay limits on companies that receive TARP assistance, with the toughest restrictions aimed at seven recipients of "exceptional assistance." They are Citigroup Inc., Bank of America Corp., General Motors Corp., Chrysler LLC, American International Group Inc., GMAC LLC and Chrysler Financial."

You'll note, that Fannie and Freddie who have taken MORE, are not subject to the same conditions, nor were they excoriated and crtitized by the media for retention bonuses... only AIG... why????

IMHO, the real reason behind the executive pay compensation issue, especially since the Dem's are now being vocal about doing it across the board, is simply to increase the TAX REVENUE...  The lower the compensation for the exec's, the fatter the bottom line, the more TAX extracted...

You don't hear them saying to lower the exec compensation to INCREASE worker pay are you?  That would be a net-loser for the politicians...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 11:25:57 am
Well, that's not the case here, Christopher... it will be the "czar" who reports to the President ONLY (not the people) or the President himself unilaterally making that decision...  No oversight, NONE... if the stockholders made that decision, I would have absolutely no problem with that, as the MARKET would be dictating that NOT the government...

If the US Goverment has bailed you out and owns a majority of your stock then as majority shareholder they should have some say in executive compensation.

Do you think that now that WE THE PEOPLE as the stockholders in GM, etc. we will get ANY say in these stockholders decisions?  So that really is irrelavent as a description of the situation

That is not irrelavent as a description of the situation just because you say it does. The US Govt. has brought on a consultant to go in and make the decision for us. Do you really want to take time out of your day. Way from your kids, and your business to go sit in on meetings in Washington regarding the pay of executives for companies that you own shares in? So what if they call him a czar. Seriously. It is not costing us a dime, and as it says in the article it is reducing the risk on our investment.

No, Chrisopther, he is a socialist because that is what he is practicing...

so·cial·ism (sō'shə-lĭz'əm) n.
 
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.- What were the options here? Let the financial system fail?The President did not create this problem. He walked into it, and now he is doing what he can to fix it. I have asked you multiple time Positive...What is your solution? What would you have had us do? You have never answered my question. You have never come out and said "This is what I would have done. Bernanke Idiot! Geithner. Idiot. Here is my solution to the financial mess we are in."  

2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved. Don't see this happening. Yet.

3. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. - I got news for you this has been happening for years. When a city comes in and forces a landowner out for a highway or a power plant what do you think they are doing?

4. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
Don't even want to waste my time on this one.


We, as a people, can't set a cap on the TRILLIONS of dollars the government is borrowing and spending and printing money to boot, devaluing the dollar, creating inflation, and INCREASING oil prices as it is traded in dollars, which will INCREASE what people are spending on gas...  and who do you think this will HURT the most?  The very people they SAY they are trying to help!  But the UNIONS, whose people make MORE than the average person, gets bailed out along with the company AT OUR EXPENSE...  it's absolute lunacy!

So your okay with outrageous executive pay, but the unions are what are making you angry? I am with you. I can't stand unions. They have long outlived their purpose. Even when I was very young and Ronald Reagan fired ALL of the Air Traffic Controllers it made total sense to me. Nobody has a RIGHT to a job. If you show up everyday and do a good job I believe you should get to keep your job, but if you are stupid enough to walk off your job because someone else is unhappy about something then you are an idiot.

You want to cap Execiutive pay, but DON'T want to cap the amount the POLITICIANS are borrowing and spending AGAINST our own self-interests, which causes MUCH more misery to EVERY economic level... quite a contradiction...

I want a cap on executive pay for companies that have taken taxpayer dollars. That is all. If you are doing fine on your own and have not take govt. money then more power to you to pay your executives. I would love to be able to cut down on all this money that is being printed, but once again I ask you... What is your solution? Let banks fail? Let unemployment jump to double digits? Not have the real estate market stabilize for years? Once again I will say it.

WHEN A GUY WITH A PHD IN ECONOMICS FROM MIT SAYS THE BAILOUTS WERE NEEDED I AM GOING TO TRUST HIM. ESPECIALLY WHEN HE IS ALSO CONSIDERED AN EXPERT ON THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

This is simply NOT government's role...  It is power NEVER provided by our Constitution, but literally TAKEN by politicians (ALL), AGAINST the very reason the country was founded, and DESTROYS peoples lives in the process, financially ENSLAVING them to the government in the coming TAX INREASES for EVERY economic level, BECAUSE of their bad decisions... 

The constitution was written over two hundred years ago. I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now. I can only hope and pray that the people at the Fed and the White House know what they are doing.

It is proven, over and over again, that with very few exceptions, that whenever the government meddles with the private sector things get WORSE...  if a company CANNOT make it, they should go out of business...  it's a good thing the government didn't subsidize the horse and buggy market...

In a perfect world this statement would be true, but when a business failing can have catastrophic consequences on the entire financial system (the bank bailout)or world economy (AIG) somebody has to step in. You have stated in this forum that you are a contractor. As a contractor you probably work for yourself. True? What happens when your money supply drys up? Your credit line (if you have one) dry up? The builder you just did work for can't pay you? Now you can't pay your workers. Your suppliers close down your credit lines because there banks shut down their lines of credit.

So once again Positive I am asking for an alternative solution. And I mean that in a most sincere way.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 11:36:02 am
Positive,

Christopher, I would ask that you consider the motiviation behind the whole executive pay issue... If the government wants to put a condition on companies who receive TARP money regarding executive pay, as long as they know that BEFORE they accept the money, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that... but not are they doing it AFTER the fact, but are refusing to let banks pay back the money... add to that, the Dem's want to EXPAND this across the board, even if they did not take TARP money...

This whole bailout thing happened so quickly I don't believe there was time to think of every contingency. They are not refusing the money completely they just want guidelines on how it should be paid back and with what funds.

Everybody knows when you dance with the devil you get burned. When they went to the govt asking for money they should have been smarter about getting it. If you go to a loan shark. once he gives you that money you are his. He has the gold. He makes the rules.

Now these companies that borrowered this money want to whine about the guidleines that come along with it? Give me a break.

You'll note, that Fannie and Freddie who have taken MORE, are not subject to the same conditions, nor were they excoriated and crtitized by the media for retention bonuses... only AIG... why????

Fannie/Freddie were already quasi-govt anyway and they got caught in the middle of the sub-prime crisis. AIG made billions of worthless insurance policies that they wrote on debt instruments. Think about collecting billions of dollars on insurance policies and then when the time came to pay up they gave us the "Oops our bad. We never expected this. If you don't give us 80B by Wednesday we are going to crumble and probably take a couple of small foreign countries with us. See ya Wednesday!!".  That is probably why Fannie/Freddie get a pass and AIG is getting hammered.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 11:54:22 am
Positive,

On top of this, just like with FDjake... you challenged my integrity by calling me a liar... I asked you to PROVE it using my words from my posts, and you did not, just like FDjake didn't... so your "truthful" statement rings quite hollow...

I will be happy to point out at least one falsehood that you have posted here, but that would involve me breaking the privacy policy between you and I that could lose me my job. I am not willing to do that. However if you are willing to sign a document that I will email over to you releasing me from liability I will be happy to nail you to the wall. If you are not willing to do this then please quit with the ridiculous diatribes and lets focus on the discussion at hand.

The ball is in your court.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 12:11:55 pm
"I will be happy to point out at least one falsehood that you have posted here, but that would involve me breaking the privacy policy between you and I that could lose me my job."

PM me with the details...  and then we'll see if it is even relevant...  Otherwise, it stands...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 12:20:43 pm
"lose me my job"

I thought you were a self-employed broker?  Did I misunderstand this...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 12:31:19 pm
Christopher,

"If the US Goverment has bailed you out and owns a majority of your stock then as majority shareholder they should have some say in executive compensation"

If you are attributing the traits of a separate entity as being the federal government separate from the PEOPLE, then this might make sense... but as it stands now, the federal government is supposed to be a government OF the people, meaning that WE not a separate entity should make this decision, not a Czar or uniliaterally the President, because then what you are saying is that the PRESIDENT owns these shares...  They should have some say, as in input, not be able to DICTATE what the pay structure is, and the OTHER stockholders should ALSO be heard, or do we ignore them? 


"So your okay with outrageous executive pay, but the unions are what are making you angry?"

Christopher, I never said I was for "outrageous" executive pay...  But I AM against the government putting aside CONTRACT LAW, and DICTATING what that compensation is AFTER the fact...  Like I said, if it was a condition of getting access to the TARP money, and they accepted it, I would not have a problem with it...  Shareholders can make their voice heard in publicly traded companies, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE THIS OPTION with our shares...


"The President did not create this problem. He walked into it, and now he is doing what he can to fix it."

This is a total FALSEHOOD... the Dem's have been in CONTROL of the checkbook of this country since 2006, and it was THEY, INCLUDING Obama, who pushed for TARP, (1/3 support for the Rep's), the "Stimulus" bill (Zero Rep support), the Omnibus (which Bush was going to VETO, but the DEMS, WHO WERE IN CONTROL put it off until Obama was in office, and THEN voted for it WITH the increases INLCUDING the earmarks that Obama COULD have veto'd), the new 3.5 TRILLION dollar budget (very little Rep support)...  Never mind the Dem's STOPPING addressing Freddie and Fannie, like the Rep's wanted to (who knows how much could have been averted if addressed earlier)...

So, it is in fact NOT TRUE that Obama and the Dem's "inherited" it....  it is replete with THEIR decisions on this... not even WILLING to listen to opposition and shutting the Rep's down....


"The US Govt. has brought on a consultant to go in and make the decision for us"

This person was neither elected or is accountable to the PEOPLE of the country...  NOR was he vettted for the position through Congressional oversight, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be there for...  Czar's are unelected, unaccountable to the people of the country, and subject to the WHIM of the President...  The internet provides us with a GREAT TOOL to give our opinion on this...  but they will NOT do this, because just like with TARP, etc... which the overwhelming MAJORITY of the people DID NOT WANT, Obama and the Dem's will IGNORE the will of the people and do whatever they want...





"WHEN A GUY WITH A PHD IN ECONOMICS FROM MIT SAYS THE BAILOUTS WERE NEEDED I AM GOING TO TRUST HIM. ESPECIALLY WHEN HE IS ALSO CONSIDERED AN EXPERT ON THE GREAT DEPRESSION. "

When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT REFUSES to provide details on where OUR MONEY is going during congressional oversight, he is NOT the person we should be trusting, and his motvations AND actions become EXTREMELY suspect...  THAT is NOT transparency and does NOT deserve trust...  the fact that he is an expert in the depression could call into question his motives, but we'll never know, as apparently HE IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE....




"As a contractor you probably work for yourself. True? What happens when your money supply drys up? Your credit line (if you have one) dry up? The builder you just did work for can't pay you? Now you can't pay your workers. Your suppliers close down your credit lines because there banks shut down their lines of credit."

Christopher, that credit it STILL "dried up", even though we are borrowing our OWN money that we gave them, which we are borrowing from China to give them, which WE will pay the interest on to do so...  So the banks, and FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS (BILLIONS) got the money, but the conditions are STILL the same a year later... actually WORSE...  the other shoe of inflation and double-digit unemployment are yet to drop...

They are going to hold onto that money until interest rates continue to climb... So they get it borrowed at almost ZERO ONLY to lend it back to us at an even GREATER profit margin... And you are worried about executive compensation at a HANDFUL of TARP money recipients?...


"I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now."

And when they change to Constitution to meet those times, you may have an argument, until then, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL...

Our courts are failing us, our politicians are failing us, they spending us INTO oblivion, with NO HOPE of EVER retiring the national debt and with "DEFICITS as far as the eye can see" (Obama quote), with challenges to our national sovereignty, as well as other rights, Tea Party tax revolts across the county, and you find it hard to believe why people don't trust what's going on...  Especially when the MAJORITY of PEOPLE said they wanted NONE of these bailout programs and CONTINUE not to...


"What is your solution? Let banks fail?"

As I have indeed said before, YES... if they CANNOT make it on their own, they go into bankruptcy, assets are sold, and/or they are gobbled up...  you CANNOT protect one industry over another...

We were TOLD we Absolutely COULD NOT let GM/Chrysler go into bankruptcy... it would RUIN everyone ACROSS THE BOARD... this was their rational... so, after BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOST, they do it ANYWAY, and the BUSINESS OWNERS (dealers) and their EMPLOYEES get the COMPLETE shaft while the government PROTECTS and gives a better deal to the UNIONS than the SECURED CREDITORS (must make those who have secured investments with the government feel REAL good)...  EXACTLY WHY the government SHOULD NOT be doing this... the are MANY critical industries to this country, and they CANNOT ALL BE BAILED OUT...

It affects the "full faith and credit of the United States" - Maybe why the Chines LAUGHED at Geitner when trying to allay their legitimate concerns...

"Let unemployment jump to double digits?"

It is going there DESPITE these efforts...

"Not have the real estate market stabilize for years?"

Tell me how these programs have stabilized the real estate market... 


"So once again Positive I am asking for an alternative solution. And I mean that in a most sincere way."

If they cannot survive on their own, they must be allowed to FAIL... the banking industry is NOT going away, and displaced workers from this will find jobs...  subsidizing these companies just makes it WORSE, otherwise AIG would not have had to borrow MORE money, and I suspect they will back at the trough soon enough until sanity returns... 
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 12:31:50 pm
BTW, still haven't received the PM from you...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 01:30:15 pm
Sorry I was at lunch. Doing it now.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 01:54:53 pm
Christopher,

Check your PM...  you are INCORRECT on your assertion in the PM, read the PM's I sent you...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 01:56:04 pm
If you are attributing the traits of a separate entity as being the federal government separate from the PEOPLE, then this might make sense... but as it stands now, the federal government is supposed to be a government OF the people, meaning that WE not a separate entity should make this decision, not a Czar or uniliaterally the President, because then what you are saying is that the PRESIDENT owns these shares...  They should have some say, as in input, not be able to DICTATE what the pay structure is, and the OTHER stockholders should ALSO be heard, or do we ignore them? 

The President was elected to run this country by WE the people. We put him there to make these decisions. if he wants to DELEGATE some of this authority to a CONSULTANT and call him a CZAR what is the big deal. I can understand your concern if this was aimed at all large corporations, but at this point it is aimed at companies that took bailout money. Do you want to be in on the decision making for how EVERY tax dollar is spent because honestly that is what it sounds like.

This person was neither elected or is accountable to the PEOPLE of the country...  NOR was he vettted for the position through Congressional oversight, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be there for...  Czar's are unelected, unaccountable to the people of the country, and subject to the WHIM of the President...  The internet provides us with a GREAT TOOL to give our opinion on this...  but they will NOT do this, because just like with TARP, etc... which the overwhelming MAJORITY of the people DID NOT WANT, Obama and the Dem's will IGNORE the will of the people and do whatever they want...

He is accountable to the President which is who picked him out. The man elected by the majority of voters in this country.

When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT REFUSES to provide details on where OUR MONEY is going during congressional oversight, he is NOT the person we should be trusting, and his motvations AND actions become EXTREMELY suspect...  THAT is NOT transparency and does NOT deserve trust...  the fact that he is an expert in the depression could call into question his motives, but we'll never know, as apparently HE IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE....

Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been as transparent as Bernanke. You can't. The Fed chairman position as a whole has been cloaked in secrecy from the beginning. While I think that the reason for this is questionable it does make some sense. I don't want the stock market dropping 500 points because Ben Bernanke missed his Starbucks stop on the way to an interview and is testy.

I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now."

And when they change to Constitution to meet those times, you may have an argument, until then, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL...


At this point I am more concerned about getting us out of the recession, off the brink of financial collapse and moving forward. I can't worry about tomorrow or next week while I am still worrying about today.

We were TOLD we Absolutely COULD NOT let GM/Chrysler go into bankruptcy... it would RUIN everyone ACROSS THE BOARD... this was their rational... so, after BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOST, they do it ANYWAY, and the BUSINESS OWNERS (dealers) and their EMPLOYEES get the COMPLETE shaft while the government PROTECTS and gives a better deal to the UNIONS than the SECURED CREDITORS (must make those who have secured investments with the government feel REAL good)...  EXACTLY WHY the government SHOULD NOT be doing this... the are MANY critical industries to this country, and they CANNOT ALL BE BAILED OUT...

Chrysler and GM are far from out of the woods. This is just the beginning. Without the bail-out funds production would have been stopped months ago. There would have been no time to work with the creditors, no time to find buyers. It would have been LIGHTS OUT. Massive unemployment. From the parts suppliers to the delivery drivers to the car saleman. Heck Ford has not failed yet and many think they could be on their way.

Tell me how these programs have stabilized the real estate market... 

By bring Fannie/feddie into the fold they have allowed them to borrow funds and keep the housing market afloat. If Fannie and Freddie were not bailed out home purchases in general would have come to a screeching halt. We would have been back in the times after the great depression when only local banks loaned money.

If they cannot survive on their own, they must be allowed to FAIL... the banking industry is NOT going away, and displaced workers from this will find jobs...  subsidizing these companies just makes it WORSE, otherwise AIG would not have had to borrow MORE money, and I suspect they will back at the trough soon enough until sanity returns...   

Your correct the banking industry is not going away but we avoided a lot of pain by taking the measures that were taken. I'm sure the displaced workers out there would love your "oh well" attitude towards job loss. Very easy for you to sit there and say when you are self-employed and not the primary wage earner.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: HoldAndBuy on June 11, 2009, 02:00:45 pm
I think he's referring to his job here as moderator.

"lose me my job"

I thought you were a self-employed broker?  Did I misunderstand this...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 02:41:03 pm
Christopher, I responded to your PM again, and as you can see, I also used two SEPARATE threads (including the one YOU RESPONDED TO) from LAST YEAR to show you were incorrect...  You could have done the same, had you used the "search" button up top...

Now, let's hope you have the integrity to apologize PUBLICLY for your incorrect assertion just as you PUBLICLY asserted that I had made this "falsehood", which is NOT correct...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 03:13:28 pm
Sorry Positive you can try and split the hairs all you want but you know the truth and I know the truth. Nothing I send you will matter though because you only accept answers that suit you. I have yet to see a posting from you that admits error. Ever.

As I said when I post something that is incorrect if wrong or out of line you can easily call me on it ar RookieNYC did once and I admitted my mistake.

You on the other hand beat a topic to death and if the answer does not come in the exact form or phrase that you are looking for you accuse people of avoiding the question.

For example you asked me to post my information. When I did what you asked it was not good enough because it was not PERSONAL information. Which you actually never specified. Then when I gave you my personal information it still was not correct because I did not post my SS#. Nothing is going to make you happy at this point other than total alliance to your way of thinking.

I understand your angry with the govt. and I understand that your angry at the economy in general, but all that anger is going to eat you up man.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 03:34:31 pm
OK Christopher, I gave you multiple opporunities to set this right, and now you PUBLICLY are now pushing a lie...  I will be addressing this further...   In the interim...

If I make a mistake, or tell a lie ABSOLUTELY feel free to call me on it...  But make sure you bring actual PROOF to the table...  You not only out and out lied in your assertion of my "falsehood" that you claimed, but then tried to assign PUBLIC records that did not even BELONG TO ME regaring my investment property from a year BEFORE I purchase my investment property...  this was AFTER I provided you with the county, and you, as a mortgage professional, and I assume using your employers work computer and having easy access to this information for verification...  If the text on our PM'ing is printed in this thread, Christopher, not only will your truthfulness be in question, but your ethics as a mortgage professional.  There were three (3) separate assertions made BY YOU in PM'ing that you KNOW to be false, so you are on pretty shaky ground here...  If I am lying right now, you can sue me for defamation of character as it would potentially affect your business, but as you can see I am NOT worried about that for obvious reasons... we know how I feel about putting my family at risk...

I am man enought to admit when I make a mistake, just feel free to back up your assertion on any mistake that I make, especially a "falsehood"... YOU, however, just like FDjake, made the assertion that I told a "falsehood" and after I PROVED it to you using links to threads that were written LAST YEAR and you YOURSELF responded to, you still want to perpetuate this... 

"Nothing I send you will matter though because you only accept answers that suit you."

That is because you DO NOT have anthing to send on this issue Christopher...  and you know it...

I gave you multiple opportunities to make this right in PM, this will get worse if you do not retract what you said...  All I am looking for is a simple apology and/or retraction...  this is basic, what would you tell your kid to do...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 03:52:28 pm
Positive,

I am perpetuating nothing. I merely pointed out that you are splitting hairs on a subject. I have done nothing wrong. I explained to you where my information came from. I have done nothing wrong. Feel free to do your own research.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 03:56:00 pm
You want me to do research on the WRONG information you provided?   :rolleyes

By you not mkaing this right here PUBLICLY in the same forum you made the assertion of my "falsehood", you ARE perpetuating it by leaving a FALSE impression out there.... As I told you in PM, I can't believe your irrationaility on this...  just apologize or retract...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 04:00:18 pm
I would like to publicly apologize to Positive Outlook. Based on the information I have I cannot prove that he lied and therefore I should have never asserted it.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 04:01:04 pm
Although I did feel it was strong enough to go to war over...

I kid. I kid.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 04:08:06 pm
Apology accepted... thank you...

I have MORE respect for you that you did it publicly in the same space you made the assertion...    :beer

I am sure others do too...    :biggrin    issue put to bed...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 11, 2009, 04:10:25 pm
If you are attributing the traits of a separate entity as being the federal government separate from the PEOPLE, then this might make sense... but as it stands now, the federal government is supposed to be a government OF the people, meaning that WE not a separate entity should make this decision, not a Czar or uniliaterally the President, because then what you are saying is that the PRESIDENT owns these shares...  They should have some say, as in input, not be able to DICTATE what the pay structure is, and the OTHER stockholders should ALSO be heard, or do we ignore them? 

The President was elected to run this country by WE the people. We put him there to make these decisions. if he wants to DELEGATE some of this authority to a CONSULTANT and call him a CZAR what is the big deal. I can understand your concern if this was aimed at all large corporations, but at this point it is aimed at companies that took bailout money. Do you want to be in on the decision making for how EVERY tax dollar is spent because honestly that is what it sounds like.

This person was neither elected or is accountable to the PEOPLE of the country...  NOR was he vettted for the position through Congressional oversight, which is what they are SUPPOSED to be there for...  Czar's are unelected, unaccountable to the people of the country, and subject to the WHIM of the President...  The internet provides us with a GREAT TOOL to give our opinion on this...  but they will NOT do this, because just like with TARP, etc... which the overwhelming MAJORITY of the people DID NOT WANT, Obama and the Dem's will IGNORE the will of the people and do whatever they want...

He is accountable to the President which is who picked him out. The man elected by the majority of voters in this country.

When a guy with a PHD in Economics from MIT REFUSES to provide details on where OUR MONEY is going during congressional oversight, he is NOT the person we should be trusting, and his motvations AND actions become EXTREMELY suspect...  THAT is NOT transparency and does NOT deserve trust...  the fact that he is an expert in the depression could call into question his motives, but we'll never know, as apparently HE IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE....

Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been as transparent as Bernanke. You can't. The Fed chairman position as a whole has been cloaked in secrecy from the beginning. While I think that the reason for this is questionable it does make some sense. I don't want the stock market dropping 500 points because Ben Bernanke missed his Starbucks stop on the way to an interview and is testy.

I don't think they had words like "derivatives" and "credit default swaps" back then. My point is times have changed and we are in uncharted waters right now."

And when they change to Constitution to meet those times, you may have an argument, until then, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL...


At this point I am more concerned about getting us out of the recession, off the brink of financial collapse and moving forward. I can't worry about tomorrow or next week while I am still worrying about today.

We were TOLD we Absolutely COULD NOT let GM/Chrysler go into bankruptcy... it would RUIN everyone ACROSS THE BOARD... this was their rational... so, after BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOST, they do it ANYWAY, and the BUSINESS OWNERS (dealers) and their EMPLOYEES get the COMPLETE shaft while the government PROTECTS and gives a better deal to the UNIONS than the SECURED CREDITORS (must make those who have secured investments with the government feel REAL good)...  EXACTLY WHY the government SHOULD NOT be doing this... the are MANY critical industries to this country, and they CANNOT ALL BE BAILED OUT...

Chrysler and GM are far from out of the woods. This is just the beginning. Without the bail-out funds production would have been stopped months ago. There would have been no time to work with the creditors, no time to find buyers. It would have been LIGHTS OUT. Massive unemployment. From the parts suppliers to the delivery drivers to the car saleman. Heck Ford has not failed yet and many think they could be on their way.

Tell me how these programs have stabilized the real estate market... 

By bring Fannie/feddie into the fold they have allowed them to borrow funds and keep the housing market afloat. If Fannie and Freddie were not bailed out home purchases in general would have come to a screeching halt. We would have been back in the times after the great depression when only local banks loaned money.

If they cannot survive on their own, they must be allowed to FAIL... the banking industry is NOT going away, and displaced workers from this will find jobs...  subsidizing these companies just makes it WORSE, otherwise AIG would not have had to borrow MORE money, and I suspect they will back at the trough soon enough until sanity returns...   

Your correct the banking industry is not going away but we avoided a lot of pain by taking the measures that were taken. I'm sure the displaced workers out there would love your "oh well" attitude towards job loss. Very easy for you to sit there and say when you are self-employed and not the primary wage earner.



Glad that is over. Now you can get back to responding to my responses to your responses.  :beer
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 11, 2009, 04:43:24 pm
I'll have to get back to on that later tonight hopefully... no time right now for a full response...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 18, 2009, 11:57:35 am
"I can understand your concern if this was aimed at all large corporations, but at this point it is aimed at companies that took bailout money."

They are looking to expand this to across the board...  This is what the Dem leadership WANTS, and are on RECORD saying... Obama NEEDS them, so who do you think he will capitulate to...

"Do you want to be in on the decision making for how EVERY tax dollar is spent because honestly that is what it sounds like."

No, that is unrealistic... problem is, the people that we have elected to spend the dollars are not even LOOKING AT THE LEGISLATION before voting for it...

"He is accountable to the President which is who picked him out. The man elected by the majority of voters in this country."

Problem is, this particular "czar"'s method of calculating HOW these people are to be compensated IS NOT under scrutiny...  nor can it be challenged giving the GOVERNMENT all the power...

"Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been as transparent as Bernanke. You can't. The Fed chairman position as a whole has been cloaked in secrecy from the beginning. While I think that the reason for this is questionable it does make some sense. I don't want the stock market dropping 500 points because Ben Bernanke missed his Starbucks stop on the way to an interview and is testy."

How can you possibly assert with a straight face that Bernanke is transparent?  When Paulsen and Bernanke first proposed TARP, they WANTED NO oversight, and just wanted a blank check...  even thought this was supposed to have been fixed, when he was asked in oversight committee to provide details on where the money is going, he said NO...  ANOTHER UNELECTED person CONTROLLING TRILLIONS of OUR MONEY with NO OVERSIGHT...

"At this point I am more concerned about getting us out of the recession, off the brink of financial collapse and moving forward. I can't worry about tomorrow or next week while I am still worrying about today."

And it is this type of short-sighted thinking that is leading to BILIIONS upon BILLIONS of money LITERALLY being WASTED...

"There would have been no time to work with the creditors, no time to find buyers. It would have been LIGHTS OUT. Massive unemployment. From the parts suppliers to the delivery drivers to the car saleman"

Going into bankruptcy. which we were TOLD COULD NOT be allowed to happen as a basis for lending them the money in the first place, is EXACTLY what happened, and is WHERE those negotiations take place... Imagine the personal destruction these people caused on their dealer network...  I'll NEVER buy another GM/Chrsyler viehicle... BECAUSE FORD did NOT take the money, I would throw my business their way FIRST...  So it will ultimately backfire on GM/Chrysler anyway...  I love their new slogan... "We're not going out of business, we're getting down to business"... ON YOUR MONEY!...  :rolleyes

"Your correct the banking industry is not going away but we avoided a lot of pain by taking the measures that were taken."

No, the pain was displaced to the people...  both in finances AND jobs...  Obama said if we didn't pass the "Stimulus" unemployment would hit 8%... we passed it, and it not only hit 8%, it shot right past it to 9 1/2% and now OBAMA is saying we'll be above 10% (it already is now, but the numbers are being fixed)...  Wrong AGAIN, just like ALL the rosy projection they put foward to get "stimulus", Omnibus and the 3.5 TRILLION budget, all of which, THEY DID NOT EVEN READ or even QUESTION.... but let's just give 'em more...   :banghead

" I'm sure the displaced workers out there would love your "oh well" attitude towards job loss."

The "oh well" attitude is on your end, letting GOVERNMENT off the hook for this... I'm furious that people are being SCREWED by the INCOMPETANCE of the government, and the absolute DESTRUCTION of the PEOPLE'S wealth for GENERATIONS TO COME...  and now they are going to make it WORSE for ALL people with Cap and Trade TAX, rising interest rates, harder for people to get or keep credit, and nationalized healthcare...  all this DESPITE them being WRONG at EVERY turn on this...

You may be willing to go along with this insanity, which is in direct CONTRAST to what our country was founded on and SUPPOSED to be about...  I didn't support Bush's role in TARP and his lack of vetoing spending, and I'm certainly NOT going to start now just because Obama is doing it...
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 18, 2009, 08:08:01 pm
They are looking to expand this to across the board...  This is what the Dem leadership WANTS, and are on RECORD saying... Obama NEEDS them, so who do you think he will capitulate to...

So now your saying that Dems want to put a cap on all corporate pay? Please show me where you have "solid" proof of this and not just one guy trying to appease some of his costituents.

No, that is unrealistic... problem is, the people that we have elected to spend the dollars are not even LOOKING AT THE LEGISLATION before voting for it...

You do make a good point here. I do think it was rushed through rather quickly.

Problem is, this particular "czar"'s method of calculating HOW these people are to be compensated IS NOT under scrutiny...  nor can it be challenged giving the GOVERNMENT all the power...

Pay back your TARP money and you have nothing to worry about. If you took bailout money and the US Govt. ie. the citizens of the US are your largest shareholder then sorry you made the deal with the devil. Remember he who has the gold makes the rules.

How can you possibly assert with a straight face that Bernanke is transparent?  When Paulsen and Bernanke first proposed TARP, they WANTED NO oversight, and just wanted a blank check...  even thought this was supposed to have been fixed, when he was asked in oversight committee to provide details on where the money is going, he said NO...  ANOTHER UNELECTED person CONTROLLING TRILLIONS of OUR MONEY with NO OVERSIGHT...

Bernanke is not transparent at all. But the point I am making is that NO FED CHAIRMAN HAS EVER BEEN TRANSPARENT. This is how it has been since the FED was formed. Now all of the sudden you want to complain?

And it is this type of short-sighted thinking that is leading to BILIIONS upon BILLIONS of money LITERALLY being WASTED...

You have no idea how this will turn out. If it keeps the economy from sinking into a depression is it worth it then? TARP is already starting to be repaid.

Going into bankruptcy. which we were TOLD COULD NOT be allowed to happen as a basis for lending them the money in the first place, is EXACTLY what happened, and is WHERE those negotiations take place... Imagine the personal destruction these people caused on their dealer network...  I'll NEVER buy another GM/Chrsyler viehicle... BECAUSE FORD did NOT take the money, I would throw my business their way FIRST...  So it will ultimately backfire on GM/Chrysler anyway...  I love their new slogan... "We're not going out of business, we're getting down to business"... ON YOUR MONEY!...

The dealer system was old and antiquated anyway. It was time for an overhaul. The system was old and bloated. These companies had way to many dealerships. This was the perfect time for them to slim down. Seriously, how many Chrysler dealerships does one city need. And you can say what you want about never giving business to Chrysler/GM, but it is exactly that type of thinking that can hurt the economy. A lot of people file BK every year. It is not a crime. Regardless of what was said  I think we all knew that BK was an inevitabilty for these companies. What I was talking about was business coming to a screeching halt. At least this way these companies had time to get their ducks in a row and not have to pink slip hundreds of thousands of people while the government sat by and let it happen.

The "oh well" attitude is on your end, letting GOVERNMENT off the hook for this... I'm furious that people are being SCREWED by the INCOMPETANCE of the government, and the absolute DESTRUCTION of the PEOPLE'S wealth for GENERATIONS TO COME...  and now they are going to make it WORSE for ALL people with Cap and Trade TAX, rising interest rates, harder for people to get or keep credit, and nationalized healthcare...  all this DESPITE them being WRONG at EVERY turn on this...

My attitude is that the govt. got us into this and they need to get us out. How is the govt. responsible for destruction of people wealth? I think the blame for that falls squarely on Wall Street. The govt has nothing to do with the credit lock-up that is what TARP was supposed to help. Once again I would be looking to Wall Street for your answers.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 18, 2009, 10:14:32 pm
"So now your saying that Dems want to put a cap on all corporate pay? Please show me where you have "solid" proof of this and not just one guy trying to appease some of his costituents."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/47873732.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Administration-Rein-in-pay-apf-15500519.html?.v=6


From the below article - "Tomorrow, the argument will extend to executives in all public companies. Already this is where Congressional Democrats are saying they want this to go."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/11/opinion/main5081996.shtml


" the citizens of the US are your largest shareholder then sorry you made the deal with the devil."

If you are going to approach this from a "shareholder" perspective, then the MINORITY shareholders are not even being provided a voice on this...  ONLY the GOVERNMENT.. NOT a good thing... It's one thing to MAKE the deal, it's another to have the TERMS CHANGED AFTER you've taken the money... unethical to the core...

BERNANKE

First you say - "Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been AS TRANSPARENT as Bernanke."  Then you say - "Bernanke is not transparent at all." ... you are arguing with yourself, I was responding to your assertion that he was "transparent".... 

"And you can say what you want about never giving business to Chrysler/GM, but it is exactly that type of thinking that can hurt the economy."

You must have MISSED where I said I would give the business to FORD first... money still in the economy, just not supporting socialism in the process...

" I think we all knew that BK was an inevitabilty for these companies"

You must have missed ALL THE ARGUMENTS that were made to keep funding them BECAUSE we COULDN"T AFFORD them going into bankrupcty...  BILLIONS later... if you "knew" this, why do you not only NOT want to hold the GOVERNMENT accoutable for mismanaging BILLIONS of dollars, but want to continue to give them MORE power for the same incompetance?...

"At least this way these companies had time to get their ducks in a row and not have to pink slip hundreds of thousands of people while the government sat by and let it happen."

Bankruptcy would have done the SAME thing WITHOUT costing us BILLIONS of dollars...

"My attitude is that the govt. got us into this and they need to get us out"

So if your rational is to let the same people who CAUSED the problem (first time I actually saw you actually assigning any of this blame to the government, bravo), FIX the problem, WHY then should not the people in their respective industries be the ones to fix it, and NOT pretend that the government knows what they are doing in all these industries???   :banghead

"How is the govt. responsible for destruction of people wealth?'

You ARE kidding, right?

"I think the blame for that falls squarely on Wall Street. "

Yes, you're right, Christopher... NONE of the MULTIPLE governemnt agencies and congressional oversight committee's (i.e. - the governments "experts" on these issues) , who were SUPPOSED to "protect us" from these scenario's and is the REASON for their existence FAILED MISERABLY, are not accountable for this... and now you want  them to add MORE government oversight of the very thing they FAILED to do the first time as well as BLINDLY give the FED EXPANDED powers BEYOND their pervue NOT ACCOUTABLE to the PEOPLE!...   :banghead

I think what bothers me the most about this, is that the government is getting a FREE ride on the accountability side of this... ONLY the private sector is feeling any pain, but NONE of the politicians and government bureaucrats... On top of that, THEY are now the EXPERTS to get us out of this???   :banghead
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 19, 2009, 08:16:00 am
The "private sector" will have it's revenge on who's the real blame in the 2010 election,don't forget to spread the word on this important election.
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 19, 2009, 08:29:33 am
Unfortunately, Seillinbama, ALOT of damage will occur between now and then...  which is also WHY they are RUSHING everything through... Not even READING the legislation, much less debating the merits of it, which is what they are SUPPOSED to do, and WHAT we pay them for...

Noone is calling for "clawbacks" and salary cuts for them for NOT doing their job... only the private sector...   :bs
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 19, 2009, 09:36:29 am
"So now your saying that Dems want to put a cap on all corporate pay? Please show me where you have "solid" proof of this and not just one guy trying to appease some of his costituents."

Gene Sperling, a top counselor to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, conceded to a congressional committee that imposing compensation caps on companies could lead to a flight of talent.

"I can say with certainty that nobody in the Obama administration is proposing such a thing," he said.

This is just Barney Frank spouting his crap again. As I said show me where there is a general consensus for something like this and I will agree they congress may be pushing the envelope but at this point it is just one or two people talking out loud.

First you say - "Please show me a Fed chairman in the past that has been AS TRANSPARENT as Bernanke."  Then you say - "Bernanke is not transparent at all." ... you are arguing with yourself, I was responding to your assertion that he was "transparent".... 

My point was that the Fed chairman is never transparent. Since the inception of the Fed the chairman has always been very discrete because they want to avoid affecting the markets with a slip of the tongue or a bad interview. However the first interview EVER given by a sitting Fed chairman was last week on 60 minutes by Ben Bernanke so I guess that does make him the most transparent Fed chairman ever...

If you are going to approach this from a "shareholder" perspective, then the MINORITY shareholders are not even being provided a voice on this...  ONLY the GOVERNMENT.. NOT a good thing... It's one thing to MAKE the deal, it's another to have the TERMS CHANGED AFTER you've taken the money... unethical to the core...

When these funds were being given I don't think there was a lot of time for the govt. and the banks to pour through every nook and cranny and set rules. If the banks were concerned about this they could have said "we are going to hold off and ask a couple of questions" instead they stood up raised there hand and to quote Charles Dickens said "Please sir, may I have some more". As I said pay back your TARP money and you won't have any problems.

You must have missed ALL THE ARGUMENTS that were made to keep funding them BECAUSE we COULDN"T AFFORD them going into bankrupcty...  BILLIONS later... if you "knew" this, why do you not only NOT want to hold the GOVERNMENT accoutable for mismanaging BILLIONS of dollars, but want to continue to give them MORE power for the same incompetance?...

It is very interesting that you keep coming back to the billions and billions wasted phrase; yet you ignore the billions and billions we have wasted in Iraq. Not to mention the billions and billions more we continue to waste everyday while we engage in rebuilding their nation. To me it makes your argument about wasted "billions" ring very hollow.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 19, 2009, 04:19:38 pm
Christopher,

Barney Frank is the House Financial Services Committee Chairman, so what he has to say on this can't be ignored as just another senator (he's NOT the only one) bloviating....

"As I said show me where there is a general consensus for something like this and I will agree they congress may be pushing the envelope but at this point it is just one or two people talking out loud"

Try reading the articles posted...

"But on Thursday Democrats AND administration officials AGREED that companies ACROSS the private sector need to adjust compensation practices to avoid damaging the economy.

"We believe that compensation practices must be better aligned with long-term value and prudent risk management AT ALL FIRMS, and not JUST for the financial services industry," Sperling said."


http://news.aol.com/article/geither-admin-wont-seek-exec-pay-cap/521911

Considering OBAMA/Giethner want to EXPAND the (unelected, unaccountable to the people) Fed's power to encompass companies BEYOND finance, we can see where this is going...  They will just get the Fed to do it for them... and there will be NOTHING you can do about it...


"It is very interesting that you keep coming back to the billions and billions wasted phrase; yet you ignore the billions and billions we have wasted in Iraq. Not to mention the billions and billions more we continue to waste everyday while we engage in rebuilding their nation. To me it makes your argument about wasted "billions" ring very hollow."

LOL...  The fact that Obama has spent MORE in the past few MONTHS than ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS PREVIOUSLY, INCLUDING BUSH, COMBINED throughout our history as a country (which INCLUDES the money successfully defending our nation in Iraq and Afghanistan and the LARGEST natural disaster in our HISTORY - Katrina), and CONTINUES to want MORE AND MORE AND MORE... should at the very least give you pause...  Considering this, to hear you attack the money spent on Iraq, successfully DEFENDING our country, which IS the governments role rings hollow... 

How can you POSSIBLY even BEGIN to criticize the spending on Iraq when we are literally BAILING OUT companies THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS, and providing BILLIONS to foreign governments???  And now the Dems want to give $108 BILLION (which is MORE than Iraq COSTS for a YEAR) to the UN with no conditions which would mean OUR money, which we HAVE TO BORROW, can go to our enemies and terrorists...  Talk about ringing hollow...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: christopher w on June 19, 2009, 05:23:08 pm
Positive,

We are going to have to agree to disagree about the govt. controlling corporate pay. So you honestly believe that the obama adminstration is going to step in and say that they have control over their pay system?


The administration plans to seek legislation that would try to rein in compensation at publicly traded companies through nonbinding shareholder votes and by decreasing management influence on pay decisions.


So by putting more power into the hands of the shareholder they are trying to keep a handle on outrageous corporate executive pay. Please explain how that is a bad thing.

Yes, you're right, Christopher... NONE of the MULTIPLE governemnt agencies and congressional oversight committee's (i.e. - the governments "experts" on these issues) , who were SUPPOSED to "protect us" from these scenario's and is the REASON for their existence FAILED MISERABLY, are not accountable for this...

Well this is the regulation that you were asking for. If those oversight committees had done their job years ago we may not be in this situation. Why are you upset about it now?

How can you POSSIBLY even BEGIN to criticize the spending on Iraq when we are literally BAILING OUT companies THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS, and providing BILLIONS to foreign governments???  And now the Dems want to give $108 BILLION (which is MORE than Iraq COSTS for a YEAR) to the UN with no conditions which would mean OUR money, which we HAVE TO BORROW, can go to our enemies and terrorists...  Talk about ringing hollow...

The reason I have to address it is because it is the elephant in the room that everyone who is complaining about spending refuses to acknowledge. We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis in most if not all of our lifetimes. The money that is being spent is obscene, but whatever they are doing is working. The economy is getting better albeit rather slowly, but it did not come to a grinding halt.

As for the foreign aid; that has been going on for years and years. Foreign aid is nothing new. And c'mon man you know why that money is going to the UN. Maintenance on their building and goodwill from around the world. That money is like money that cops pay to informers. Citizens of other countries may not like us, but for the most part GOVERNMENTS of other countries LOVE us. We keep the lights on and up until a few months ago we were the police force for the planet.

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: jfpen on June 19, 2009, 06:20:50 pm
Here's something to think about.
 As far as compensation for executives is concerned, from a shareholder perspective people do have the choice to buy the stock of that company or not.
From a consumers perspective, people have the choice of buying that company's product or service or not.

How do you think investor/consumer choices could influence this?

JP
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 19, 2009, 07:14:31 pm
"Well this is the regulation that you were asking for. If those oversight committees had done their job years ago we may not be in this situation. Why are you upset about it now?"

My point is they did not do the job with the EXISTING MULTIPLE agencies and congressional oversight committee's, which is the REASON for their existence... so the answer is to add ANOTHER agency, at MORE cost???  What about the other agencies, committee's and politicians??? Where is the accountability for NOT doing their job???  Why are you NOT upset about it to the point where you are calling for some accountability from government???

The government's role in all of this is MORE egregious IMHO, because they created these OVERLAPPING agencies/committee's to supposedly "protect us" from these situations... They couldn't even handle Madoff, and his small potatoes, now you want to give them MORE responsibility with ANOTHER overlapping agency, and on top of this, EXPAND the Fed's powers, who are NOT elected nor accountable to the people???

"but whatever they are doing is working."

And here is where I disagree with you completely...  TARP was not used to remove the "toxic assets" and free up the credit...  All of the funds haven't been disbursed yet for TARP, and BILLIONS were used for the auto industry, and BILLIONS went to foreign governments...  Only 5% of the "stimulus" has actually been distributed, "omnibus" and the 3.5 TRILLION dollar budget hasn't either... so, if things are "working" what exactly are you saying is working??? 

"TARP"  was SUPPOSED to be used to remove the "toxic assets" from the marketplace to "unfreeze" credit markets...  right off the bat, they WASTED $70+BILLION of it (10% of the money)...  Credit markets have not only NOT unfrozen, it's gotten WORSE...

"Stimulus" - we were told if we didn't pass stimulus, unemployment would reach 8%... we have not only shot past it to 9 1/2%, but OBAMA is now saying we will go over 10% (it's actually higher now, but the numbers are rigged)....

"Omnibus" - BUSH was going to VETO this, because of the 8% INCREASE in spending, so the DEMS put it off until Obama was in office...  They left all the earmarks in, where Obama had COMPLETE CONTROL over whether to veto it or not... and the INCREASED spending plan was signed by Obama...

"3.5 TRILLION" dollar budget - do we really even need to go into detail on this sham...


My point is, I watch as Obama supporters skewer Bush for spending over the last 8 years (which was REALLY the previous 6, as the DEMs have been in control of the checkbook since 2006, and Bush was lame duck), which he deserved IMHO for NOT vetoing more, but are OK with Obama spending more than all other presidents, including Bush... COMBINED...   :shocked     It belies any common sense...

Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: sellnbama on June 19, 2009, 11:26:42 pm
pos,
Good points,thank you sir.How can anyone argue with the most of all the prez's combined?When oh when do these people see he's useless??
Title: Re: most "czars"in history...."change"you'll be forced into.
Post by: PositiveOutlook on June 20, 2009, 10:17:46 am
"Good points,thank you sir.How can anyone argue with the most of all the prez's combined?"

Oh, they'll find a way, just watch... which is WHY it belies any common sense...

"When oh when do these people see he's useless??"

Useless I can live with, destructive is the part I am having trouble with...  I can't believe they cannot see how destructive his policies are...   I think they KNOW it inside, but don't want to recognize it... part of it will be that it would come with the recognition that what they were WARNED before the election (that we were told was bogus and "fear-mongering") was right all along...