Real Estate Investing Forums

Real Estate Investing => Rehabbing, Fix and Flip, Rental Properties => Topic started by: txguy79 on June 21, 2007, 09:03:08 pm

Title: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 21, 2007, 09:03:08 pm
Hello All! I just typed for 15min on a post and it didnt go through. I will try to give the short version.
This is my first deal.
42,500 Purchase Price (Cash)
534 Penalty for breaking CD
634 Ins. for 6 mos.
1000 Util for 6 mos
1050 Taxes for 6 mos.
338 Closing Costs
75 Insp from contractor friend
4500 Repairs to be rent ready... 9000 for resale
=50631 money in the deal


ARV 75000-80000
SFH 2/2/2


This being my first deal, I want to hold for 6 mos and get the 6.5% APR for primary residence rate, and rent right after that.
Refinance numbers:
42500 PP
534 Penalty
3000 Closing costs (give or take)
= 47034.00

I should only have 3597.00 in the deal after 6 mos.


750 Rent
337.50 OE
312.50 P&I
100 Cashflow

I will apply the 100.00 cashflow every month to the principal and take a 30yr loan to 18yrs.

Sorry I didnt elaborate more but after that first post that didnt go through I dont have much time.
I was wondering what the veteran investors think abnout this deal. All input and advice is welcome.
Thanks.

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: campbellgroup on June 22, 2007, 12:49:11 am
What the heck, Looks good to me. Its only money.
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: propertymanager on June 22, 2007, 06:07:09 am
txguy79,

I'm having a little trouble following your logic.  I'm assuming that you are going to hold this property vacant for 6 months so that it will be seasoned.  Then, you plan to get owner-occupant financing even though this is an investment property.

If that is correct, I would say - don't do it.  Representing the property on a loan application as owner occupied when it is a rental (to get a lower rate) is insurance fraud.  I would not do that.

In addition, I don't quite understand your math.  If you buy the property, hold it vacant for 6 months, and then refinance it, you will be in the deal for $50,631 + $3,534 = $54,165.

Therefore, to look at the numbers for this deal:

Acquisition costs (including refinance):  $54,165

Gross Rents:  $750
Operating Expenses:  $375
NOI:  $375
Mortgage Payment:  (30 yr, 6.5%, $54,165):  $342

Cash Flow:  $33

This is not a terrible deal, but it's just not a good deal with these numbers.  You should have positive cash flow, but it's lower than my personal $100/ month minimum.

This would be a better deal if you simply got the financing at the beginning and cut out the penalties, double closing costs, and 6 months of lost rent and carrying costs.

Mike

Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 22, 2007, 08:13:47 am
Sorry for the confusion. And yes my math is off a little. The 534 penalty would only be a one time charge but I would have to add the 3000 closing costs to it.
  It was my understanding that as long as the property is owner occupied at the time of  refinance then it doesnt matter what you do with it after that. I do know that on the next property I will have a higher rate.
Couldnt I refinance at a price that would give me the $100 min. cashflow and just keep 5-6k in the deal?
Also, what do you think about me not taking the profit and applying the $100 to the principal for the early mortg. payoff.
I am using 45% of gross rents for my OE.

Thanks for your advice
matt


Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: bizarrefun on June 22, 2007, 10:36:18 am


it depends on the zip code...do some more research,,,,most neighborhoods ARV will be 10-20% withing 2 years,,,,,u will need to deduct 10-20% off your ARV...

i would pass....not enough cash flow.....not a great holder



my 2 cents

Robert A. Doncaster, Jr.
Import/Export Entrepreneur & Investor
*** DO YOUR HOMEWORK ***

Chicago Illinois USA
& sometimes Salzburg, Austria

Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: Bluemoon06 on June 22, 2007, 01:08:07 pm
Hello Matt,

I am in Houston also.  In general a 2 bedroom is what I call an obsolete house.  The market for 3 bedrooms is much greater than 2 and the market for 4 bedrooms is not that much more than 3.  That is why I look for 3/2/2.

With these numbers you can get this house 100% financed with a PITI of about $600/month and with a $750/month rent be positive $150/month without taking the risk of breaking your CD or lying on the credit application.  This means that you can do 6 of these per year for the next 3 years and end up with an income of $2500/month.  If you use your cash then you will run out of money before you run out of deals. 

Remember why you are doing real estate in the first place.  You are not doing deals for deals sake.  You are trying to create multiple streams of income that will replace your job and allow you to own your lifestyle.  It is not about the money it is about the lifestyle.
 
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 22, 2007, 04:08:31 pm
Bluemoon,

Thanks for your reply. The reason I used cash is because I couldnt find a traditional lender who would go as low as 42500.00. I almost used hardmoney but after I ran the numbers it just didnt make sense. The cost of money was too high.I originally was going to buy and sell. My biggest mistake was not looking over the comps throughly enough. In this particular area there had only been one 2/2/2 sale in the last 6 mos. and it was for 89900.00, or so I thought. The sq. footage was wrong on the comp and they had the third bedroom listed as a dining room on the MLS. It didnt click until I had already given 2000.00 earnest money and was too far in the deal. I bought it from an auction with a pro-seller contract. This is a rookie mistake, I know, but this being my first deal it slipped by me. I still think I can make this deal work and get most of my cash out so I can move on to the next deal.

Question: If I havent rented the house out after 6 mos. when I refinance, am I really commiting fraud or just beating the system on this one?

Thanks for your advice

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: propertymanager on June 22, 2007, 04:42:37 pm
Quote
With these numbers you can get this house 100% financed with a PITI of about $600/month and with a $750/month rent be positive $150/month without taking the risk of breaking your CD or lying on the credit application.

What?  That must be some of that fuzzy math.  Rent - PITI does not equal cash flow  -  not even close.  Are there no operating expenses in Texas?

Quote
Couldnt I refinance at a price that would give me the $100 min. cashflow and just keep 5-6k in the deal?

Yes, you could put enough cash into the deal to get $100 minimum cashflow, but that doesn't change the character of this deal.  You would simply be paying up front to get the cash flow and losing the use of the money you put down. 

This isn't a horrible deal, it's just not a good one.  However, since it is positive cash flow (even at 100% financing), you should not be hurt by this deal (unless you make additional significant mistakes). 

Mike
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 22, 2007, 05:50:23 pm
Mike

Thanks for your advice. I read your book and I do believe that OE run 45-50% of gross rents.

I guess I will just leave about 5k in the deal, take the $100.00 a mo. cashflow, move on and hope to make a better deal next time.

One more thing; Is there ever a time when you can claim some of the operating expense build up from one property as profit?   lets say after five years you have a model tenant who hasnt given you any problems, pays on time- every time, and doesnt plan on going anywhere any time soon, and the house  hasnt needed any major work?

Thanks again guys for all of your advice...

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: propertymanager on June 22, 2007, 08:12:12 pm
txguy79,

You are right that the OE run 45% to 50% of the gross rents.  I always use 50% when evaluating a property just to be on the conservative side, but it is not unreasonable to use 45% as you have done.

If you don't have a lot of operating expenses for a given property in a given year  -  yes, you will have more profit.  However, when you have a bad year with high expenses for a given property, then you could have a substantial loss for that year.  The best I can tell from my business, it is all random.  I have a few really low income rentals that have never been vacant and have the original tenants in them.  I have had other low income rentals that have had tenants from hell (or at least they were pure evil).  I have a couple of really nice SFHs that have had a lot of turnover and evictions, including one rental that had two evictions in two consecutive months (both tenants passed my thorough screening).  I was absolutely shocked.  I have other SFHs that have had excellent long-term tenants. 

Once again, I want to stress that you haven't made a terrible deal or even a bad deal!  That is not what I'm saying.  It will be fine for your first deal and is lightyears ahead of the first deals that most new investors make.  The numbers indicate that it will have a positive cash flow.  It just doesn't meet my personal $100/month minimum with 100% financing.  Rentals can be significant hassle and I like to be paid enough to make it worth while. 

Good Luck,

Mike
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 22, 2007, 08:49:20 pm
Thank you for the advice Mike and good luck to you as well.

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: Jeffelite on June 23, 2007, 03:01:13 pm
Mike how much do you put down on a property?  As close to 0 as possible?
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: propertymanager on June 23, 2007, 03:57:57 pm
Quote
Mike how much do you put down on a property?  As close to 0 as possible?

YES, 0 on most deals.

Mike
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 23, 2007, 06:54:35 pm
Mike

Lets say you find a house that needs 10k in repairs and it wont qualify for conv. financing; Would you use a HML, do the repairs, and then do a cash out refi with a traditional, leaving no money in the deal?

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: propertymanager on June 23, 2007, 07:23:47 pm
Quote
Lets say you find a house that needs 10k in repairs and it wont qualify for conv. financing; Would you use a HML, do the repairs, and then do a cash out refi with a traditional, leaving no money in the deal?

Absolutely not!  First, I would never use hard money for a rental.  The margins are too tight to pay uncle guido's extortion rates and fees.  Also, I won't do a deal unless I have at least 30% equity at closing.  I'm trying to make money and build wealth.  Zero equity = zero wealth.

Mike
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: henryinma on June 24, 2007, 01:03:33 am
First I'd have to say this deal sounds a little off.

If you're going to commit mortgage fraud, you mind as well do it straight up and get it from the start. You need to look around more for a bank that will finance you, for instance, I believe Ing Direct will do a 5/1 arm for owner occupied at about 6% right now. I don't think they do non owner occupied.

The legal way to do it is to get an investment loan and that's at about 6.75-7%. Basically you need to do the math, your refinance costs are going to eat up any savings you get from the lower rate.

For a 30 year with a 47k loan, the payment is $297.07 at 6.5%. At 7% the loan payment is $312.69. You're trying to save $15.62 a month or $187.44 a year and you're willing to commit fraud to do it. At $187.44 a year, it would take you about 16 years just to break even on your $3k closing costs. Also in 6 months the interest rates could be at 7% so it'd be even worse. Just remember that rates were at about 6% just a month or two ago.

Trying to get fancy on this deal is just going to cost you even more money. Sounds like you should just get a regular loan and rent it out as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: bizarrefun on June 24, 2007, 08:51:06 am
henryinma ..is the boston area tanking yet?.....how about providence?

i use to live in newport RI when i was younger...miss that neck of the woods....

i heard providence is taking a hit..

looking to get a 2nd vacation home...may have to start to run some ads up there... lol

my 2 cents

Robert A. Doncaster, Jr.
Import/Export Entrepreneur & Investor
*** DO YOUR HOMEWORK ***

Chicago Illinois USA
& sometimes Salzburg, Austria
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 24, 2007, 01:46:08 pm
I dont understand how this is considered mortg. fraud. I live with my fiance and give her money every month for the mortg.  so im not on the deed. This is my very first home purchase and it will be owner occupied for at least 6 mos. Since I have so much time to put into this house I will be doing the repairs my self on nights and weekends. So, at the time of refinance I will be the owner occupant. Later on I will rent it out. Whats the difference?

Every lender I talked to told me that in my case the difference between owner occ. rate and investment rate is going to be at least 2 percentage points. 6.5 compared to 8.5

If you had read my earlier post I initally wanted to buy this house cash, rehab and sell but I made a mistake on the comps. I only paid $338 in closing costs when I made the purchase. Doesnt it make sense to not have to pay interest for 3 to 6 mos while its being fixed?

Also im not so sure this house would of qualified for conventional at the beginning and a HML would have killed the deal.

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: henryinma on June 24, 2007, 02:48:42 pm
It doesn't really make sense that you don't have to pay interest. If you mean that by not having a mortgage you're not paying interest, you're just moving the money around. You could be earning interest on the money now, some banks are offering around 5% interest on deposits, so you're not really getting an interest free loan for 3-6 months.

You're better off fixing this house as soon as possible and getting the $750 a month in rent, that's $4500 for 6 months or $3000 for 4 months. The money you save doing it yourself may be lost in taking too much time to do it.

If you're actually living in it, then just get a regular loan. The amount is rather small which is why those lenders are quoting you a higher rate. For this small amount, you're better off with a local bank or a credit union or a company like Ing Direct, they seem to do small loans, had a friend do one there for $75k. Most mortgage brokers won't make any money on it so that's why you're getting the high rates. And because the refinance costs are so high relative to the amount of money borrowed, you're better off with just one loan, plus rates are going up so you shouldn't count on a low rate 6 months down the line.

Oh as for Boston, the market is actually picking up, inventory is down a little, further out about 10-20 miles out it's still soft and even further out some areas have prices that are still going down. Very little foreclosure/short sales close to Boston. Some expensive areas like Winchester still get multiple offers and homes there that are priced in the 800k to a million are still selling.
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: Bluemoon06 on June 25, 2007, 11:09:46 am
Every lender I talked to told me that in my case the difference between owner occ. rate and investment rate is going to be at least 2 percentage points.

Matt I suggest you think through your plan with the end in mind.  First ask yourself why are you doing real estate?  Are you doing real estate because you want to live a certain lifestyle?  If so how do you get to that lifestyle?  I would suggest that an income of so much a month will fund the lifestyle that you desire.  That is where real estate comes in.  You need to do this in order to determine how many houses you need to yield you that much income per month.  Then you go and buy that many houses.

You then look at the constraints to getting them.  One is running out of time or money before you get enough houses.  You overcome that by using leverage.  I suggest that 10 to 20 houses yielding $200/month will fund a really nice lifestyle in Houston.  I know that you can get to this level in 2 years.  Using this plan it will become obvious that you donít need to be sweating 2% on a mortgage when you need to be making some real money.  I am in Houston too.  What I do is find REO properties that are 3/2/2 1500 sqft or larger that retail for $100k to $120k that I can buy for around $60k.  I put $6k to $12k into them using a rehab loan.  I then have a PITI of around $550/month to $650/month.  I then rent them out for $900/month to $1000/month.  You can buy fix and rent 6 of these houses in the 6 months you are taking to fix up that one house you are doing.  And instead of saving 2% of a mortgage you could have $300,000 in equity and an additional income of $1000/month by then.

We are not doing this for the money; we are not doing it because we like to work with our hands.  We are doing it for the lifestyle that it provides us.  Begin with the end in mind.
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: bizarrefun on June 25, 2007, 11:17:36 am
Well said Bluemoon!!!!!!!!!  same concept in bad neighoods,,,,just double the houses! he he lol

the key now is 50% off...not 75%...25% will be lost in the doom and gloom coming within the next18 months

your deals will be even better within the next 18 months,,,watch and see..bank s will be giving away the great deals here in the coming months

my 2 cents

Robert A. Doncaster, Jr.
Import/Export Entrepreneur & Investor
*** DO YOUR HOMEWORK ***

Chicago Illinois USA
& sometimes Salzburg, Austria
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 25, 2007, 11:39:29 am
Bluemoon

I agree with everything you are saying but since I did buy this house cash (because my first exit strategy was to buy and sell) I am being told by most lenders that I will have to wait 6 mos. to refinance. Since that is the case I might as well save some money on the rehab and get the owner occ rate to go with it. I will definatly finance the rest of my deals from the beginning, from here on out.

Im all about the lifestyle. My ultimate goal is enough passive income to quit my day job. I just dont see a pace of one house per month as being realistic for me right now.

Thanks for the advice

Matt

Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: henryinma on June 25, 2007, 11:51:56 am
I think you're getting a little too caught up in theory and reality. What you're doing sounds about right if you're talking about a 200k+ deal or more where the lower interest rate has a real effect on the bottom line, however with such a small amount of money, the refinance costs are so high relative to the loan that a lower interest rate really means nothing compared to what you're losing in potential rent.

Most people focus too much on the interest rate and not on the monthly cash flow. As I said before, your real problem is not talking to more lenders, you'll get a different story out of them the more you talk to. You can finance this now, it's just that they normally go by the purchase price when it's under 6 months.
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 25, 2007, 07:40:05 pm
I understand what you are saying but the damage has been done. I bought the house for cash and now need to get my cash back. If i rent the house out now it will be labeld investment property. If I wait 5 mos I can make it owner occ. My total closing costs the first go round were 338.00. To refinance im looking at 2500-3000.

60,000.00 at 6.25% for 30 yrs. is 369.43 mo.  Total interest 72,994.92


60,000 at 8.5% for 30 yrs. is 461.35 mo.   Total interest 106,085.31


I think ill wait a few months to get those numbers. Besides, im going to have to pay the closing costs of 2500-3000 regardless.

i thought i was going to buy, rehab, and sell. I bought it cash to avoid HML. This is plan B for me and I dont think a few months of lost rent is going to hurt in the long run.

Thanks for the advice though...

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 26, 2007, 03:02:38 pm
Bluemoon

I assume you are a member of lifestyles here in Houston. " Its not the money, its the lifestyle."

I asked Del about his opinion on operating expenses running 45-50% of gross rents and he wouldnt answer my question. He basically said that he could rent a house in 3 days where it might take someone else 3 months- And his repairs would cost less than another persons would. I agree with that to a certain extent.

I just wanted to ask you your experience with what OE run you.

Thanks for your reply

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: Bluemoon06 on June 27, 2007, 12:58:51 pm
Yes lifestyles is one of the clubs I belong to.  I also belong to the Real Estate Investors Club of Houston (RICH club). Glenn Dickson's club (Complete Property) the best thing about his club is that it is free and he provides drinks.  I am also a member of MMAP.  I think that MMAP gets me the best conections and I do my financing through them.  These people are buying houses.  Del at Lifestyles gives you good foundation like renting a house in 3 days and cutting costs.  Glenn's club gives you good market information and RICH is good for networking. 

I can give you contact info for all these clubs if you would like.  If I had to pick 2 clubs to actually do the business I would say that Lifestyles and MMAP are mandatory.
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: txguy79 on June 27, 2007, 02:57:27 pm
I belong to RICH and of course have heard of Lifestyles but I havent heard of the other two.

Id like some info on MMAP and glen Dicksons club. Thanks.

Matt
Title: Re: Did I make a good deal?
Post by: Bluemoon06 on June 27, 2007, 04:16:45 pm
I just sent you a pm with their contact information.