Real Estate Investing Forums

Real Estate Investing => Bird Dogs, Wholesaling => Topic started by: The Investor on March 15, 2007, 11:23:53 pm

Title: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 15, 2007, 11:23:53 pm
Hello All,
         I have been wholesaling for 9 months in an area where retail values are about 65K-100K. I spend about 4K per month on direct mail. I have studied plenty of courses and am averaging about 6-8K per wholesale fee. I am doing about 2-3 flips per month. While I am doing ok, after taxes, after expenses, my net is really not where I would like it to be. I am not meaning to sound greedy but I hear some of investors doing 5-10 deals per month at 15-25K per deal seems amazing. I believe only half of what I am told because people tend to exaggerate. That being the case, I do believe people are doing it.
         I am a bit frustrated and would like to know if anyone can help me go to that next level. I sometimes think that I need to:

A) get into a market where retail values are in the 125-175K range which would yeild bigger assignment fees,
B) double my marketing campaigns,
C) hire an apprentice/partner to do more volume,
D) add another source of picking up deals (this can be more time consuming and don't know if it would be doable)

Please help everyone...........................I know that I am doing pretty good at this stage of the game but I can see that I need to have a bigger pipeline. If a deal or two falls out, I could be in the red. All your suggestions are welcomed!!
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Rich_in_CT on March 16, 2007, 08:58:48 am
Where are you located?  Who are you marketing to?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 16, 2007, 09:03:06 am
Thanks for responding Rich.

I am wholesaling in FL and TX. Marketing to absentee owners only.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Rich_in_CT on March 16, 2007, 09:07:18 am
SFH?  Multi?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 16, 2007, 09:12:15 am
SFH
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Rich_in_CT on March 16, 2007, 09:17:14 am
Are you mostly turning them around to retail buyers or to rehabbers?  Have you considered having people in those markets look for vacants?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: propertymanager on March 16, 2007, 09:17:30 am
Quote
If a deal or two falls out, I could be in the red. All your suggestions are welcomed!!

...and that is the problem with wholesaling.  You must always be hustling if you want to eat.  Additionally, to a large extent, you are at the mercy of the market.  

In my opinion, wholesaling is almost always an entry level strategy.  People start with wholesaling to get some initial cash and then move on to a more traditional business model.  Maybe it's time that you graduate to something more substantial, such as rehabbing or rental properties.  While all businesses have their ups and downs, the rehabbing and rental property businesses are more stable than wholesaling and don't depend on doing such a large volume to stay afloat.

Good Luck,

Mike  
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Rich_in_CT on March 16, 2007, 09:19:47 am
Mike makes a good point.  Why not take some of that cash and put it into another stategy?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 16, 2007, 09:46:37 am
Since I just got into to RE investing 9 months ago. This world is all new to me. After seeing all the ways to invest in RE, this is the quickest way to make money with very little hassle as well.

Yes Mike you are right, it is a hustle but everyone that I speak to who rehabs and does sub 2, all want to do what I am doing - wholesale. They tell me that rehabbing is very laborious and is a pain. I am in smaller markets with low retail value. I know of people in bigger markets where there average assignment fee is 20-30K. I may be answering my own question here and that is to go to those markets.

I do have a plan with all this wholesaling:

1) wholesale for fast capital (trying to make as much as possible)
2) along the way buy a few commercial properties to acquire monthly cashflow (ie. multifamily building of 8+ units, small strip malls, etc)
3) keep wholesaling yet living frugal and beating up the mortgages on the commercial pieces I acquire to increase the CASH FLOW.
4) then when my buildings gives me the desired cashflow, it doesn't matter if I wholsale anymore.
5) I am not planning on wholesaling forever but it is the springboard to financial freedom.

Thanks for your input and if you have anything for me, please let me know.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: PaulBroni on March 16, 2007, 06:21:22 pm
FWIW, I know of several outfits here that are wholesale operations, and they are doing dozens of deals a month. I don't think that rehabs or rentals are necessarily "better" than wholesaling. Actually, if I could make $15K on a wholesale deal vs. $30K on a rehab, I'd probably prefer to wholesale and take less risk, especially if I could more than double my volume.

I'm pretty much a rehabber, and I still find that I am always scrambling to locate my next deal, so hustling each week is still part of the territory for me.

I am getting into rentals right now, though, specifically because the subprime market has fallen apart. All of those people who were going to get 80/20 loans with 550 FICOs to buy their house will now need to rent for a while longer, and I foresee that rents will increase in the next 12-24 months and tenants will be staying longer. Combined with the fact that 20% of the buyers for starter homes have evaporated with the subprime market, there will be pressure on prices at that level.

Hmmm...

1. Strong rental market
2. Weak starter home resale market
3. Low, low interest rates
------------------------------------
Equals: a great time to be a landlord!

Just MHO...
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Roger J on March 16, 2007, 08:31:17 pm
The first thing that I'd suggest, if not already done, is find a good accountant to limit paying those taxes as much as possible.  I understand that wholesaling doesn't gain all of the tax benefits as holding does, but you need to know EVERYTHING that you can deduct is deducted.

If you're getting $6-8K on $80K average deals, then you're doing GREAT.  Finding more expensive homes, though, won't necessarily bring you more money.

I think that I would also have to reconsider my marketing strategy somewhat.  Maybe others will disagree, but I don't think that you're getting a great return on your $4K a month.  Have you evaluated where your deals are actually coming from?  Could you cut your expenses on direct mail and still have the same number of deals?  If so, that would free up more money for you to try another advertising method or simply keep more in your pocket.

Finally, and you yourself touched on this point, the real problem with wholesaling (or rehabbing/retailing for that matter) is that as long as it's YOU doing it, it's a J-O-B.  That's right, a job.  If you don't go to work everyday and do deals, you don't get paid.  Essentially, you're still trading your time for money.  Yes, it's alot more than $10/hour, but it's still a trade.  If you were to get sick/hurt, your income would cease.

Most people who I know that actually do 8-10 deals or more a month have made their job into a business.  They have hired and trained other people to find, and wholesale, their properties for them.  At that point, they can focus on actually running a business rather than how to make the next deal work.  It sounds like that you may be at that point, if you wish to continue to wholesale.

Raj
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: ericmedem on March 16, 2007, 10:23:16 pm
Im not making 50k a month yet but Im doing OK. If I were in your shoes I would diversify my strategies a bit, I am doing a decent amount of flips (Ive closed 7 in 2007 for around 130k), I am not doing alot of wholesaling because I have found that my profits are much larger if I rehab myself.

I dont pick up a hammer, but I do have 6 full time guys working on my rehabs, and once you get your systems down decent you can accomplish alot in a very small amount of time 5-7 hours a week.  Depending on the amount of deals available in your market adding a few flips might not be a bad way to go. Our market in Michigan is one of the worst in the nation and I am still doing decent. If your avg wholesale commission is 7 k then you need to do 7 deals a month, which is very feasable if your market will bear it.  But you only need to do 2-3 flips a month to surpass 50k.  It would have been next to impossible in our market to make that flipping when things were "good" because the competition drives price up.

Also instead of hiring an an assistant or partner you could hire people to do EVERYTHING that you dont enjoy doing, so that you can focus solely on real estate investing.  This strategy has worked phenomenal for me.  I only do what I am good at finding deals, finding buyers and selliing. Nowdays I dont do anything that I dont want to, I can pay people to do everything.

As far as doubling your marketing, i am guessing that the law of diminishing returns will kick in eventually, I have never sent out a postcard, or anything for that matter.  I have people call me with deals solely from networking. So if your doing so well with mail, and I am doing OK with networking, then if you combined the 2 I bet you would do awesome. (though I'd say your doing great)

As far as wholesaling being a job, I would agree that it is a job if you dont love what your doing. Anything that you have to do, that you dont enjoy is a job.   Life and marriage can be a job if you dont enjoy it even though they may not pay.  I have tried to make wholesaling and selling real estate more enjoyable by getting fun things to drive, I know it sounds lame but you spend alot of time in the car as an investor or realtor.  I bought a convertible vette, and harley for the summer, and a lexus for the winter beater.  There has never been a single summer day driving around with my top down, doing what I love, that I have said "I hope I dont have to do this again tommorow" . 

Theres a saying "You are EXACTLY where you want to be".  Many would deny that they would want to be poor, overweight, broke or unemployed, but guess who got them there, yep that person in the mirror.  Your circumstances don't define you, but they do show exactly who you have chosen to be.

I think what Roger was refering to was a business, a good business should be duplicateable and function with or without you.  It would be difficult to wholesale homes without participating but there are ways to make it very easy.  Focus on a strong buyers list, once your good buyers list is in place you essentially become a property match maker.  Build a huge networks of contacts that know that your the "Go To" guy for buying real estate or at least you know people who can buy.

Because of networking I dont need to send mailers, or even many offers. Realtors and investors call me when they see a good deal coming.  I can either buy them myself for rehab, or wholesale, or sell them to other investors as an agent.

I would like to ad more but the babies waking up.

Eric Medemar


Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: njss on March 18, 2007, 10:33:08 pm
Mike is right, only use wholesaling (active earned income) as a way to prime the pump but not as sole income.  use that dough to increase marketing and pwer-investing into other areas like lease-options, rentals (passive income).  you do less work, the money does the work.  Add in some tax liens and all together its called "the circle of wealth" :cool
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: mcintoshcopywriter on March 18, 2007, 11:41:49 pm
i agree with the poster who said 4K on direct mail is a lot of money for your returns. my background is working in the ad agency biz. Granted the industry says 1% return on direct mail is good. I'm not a math whiz, but I am a communications expert. keep those direct mail pieces simple in terms of the message.

Make sure it's designed to give you credibility...as I'm sure you know, your audience probably has seen all kinds of direct mail junk. You want them to see yours and immediately have a connection of trust. So much of the crap I see in the 'We buy houses" genre just screams scam (even if it's on the up and up) or "I"m here to rob you blind"....typography, color choices, it all makes an impression in a split second. And that's all you got. Who does your design / marketing? Do they really know what they're doing? Marketing is a business just like real estate. There are people who know what they're doing and those who don't. 

Good luck.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: REI NOOBSTER on March 19, 2007, 08:09:58 am
4K on direct mail? What are you maling 8,000 letters a month?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 19, 2007, 02:03:02 pm
Hey everyone,

            Thanks for the responses. It has been great and your feedback is much appreciated.

Roger -
              I indeed have a great accountant in place and will be working with him to limit paying taxes as much as possible. As far as spending 4K a month, this is what is required in the markets that I am in in order to turn the profits that I am in. I am entertaining other sources to obtain more value. I am always looking to save all my money yet make as much as I can. You couldn't have said it better. It is a JOB. My partner and I are systemizing everyting currently to be able to do wholesaling on a much larger level. So you are dead on by stating this. I am the one fielding the calls when the leads come in. My concern about giving my position to someone is that they will not be as diligent as I am. I am very aggresive in going after the leads once they come in. You and me both know not everyone will go after your business like you. Some things can be taught to other's but either you are born with drive or your not! I hope I am wrong because I am not planning on staying on the phone for much longer. Hopefully, I can find a way to systemize this part of it. Thanks for you reply.

Ericmedem -
             Loved your post. Like I said to Roger, I am systemizing everything now. I am humbled that you have never sent out direct mail to obtain leads. I am a network king and believe highly in this. Since I am doing all these deals away from my residence it is much harder to establish a network where people bring you leads. I am assuming you work with birdogs to bring you the deal. I am working with birdogs, realtors, and other investors to obtain other deals. If you make a living primarly from others bringing you deals, that fantastic. One of my mentors, Steve Cook, does it this way. However, he has been in the biz for 10 yrs. I know that this will take some time. Like you said: Networking and direct mail leads = will bring great results. It is going to be interesting. I think I may have to get into rehabbing at some point.
             Like a doctor or anyone for that matter, if you specialize, you will be in great demand!! My main focus is on becoming excellent at wholesaling. Then I will take the money from wholesaling and "recycle" it into commercial property to have that passive income stream!! It's #1 on the list.

NJSS,
             I like your mix of income. PASSIVE INCOME IS WHERE THE WEALTH IS!! I am all for working less and making more!!

Mcintoshcopywriter,
             I like that you commented on marketing. Marketing is key. Thanks for the advice on keeping the pieces simple. My partner and I study marketing aside from RE. We are much plugged into Dan Kennedy as well as others. I think that are marketing is more successful than the competition b/c we seen the competitors flyers and understand the difference. When I receive a call from a seller, I ask them why did they call ours out of the many that they seen and the results are great. This is a wonderful source for feedback and has taught us much!! I agree less is more! Thanks.

REI Noobster,
             Don't really understand your question, can you be more specific. Are you asking geographically, market, etc?

Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: eman82 on March 19, 2007, 07:25:13 pm
hi the invester         i was wondering how many letter do you mail out a month,maybe you can give be some good tips ....
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: spacechimp on March 19, 2007, 09:29:35 pm
Takin it to the NEXT LEVEL  :shocked

we've put out 7 bids now on REO's and none accepted or even given back a reasonable counter offer...
I mean if a house needs about 15K in rehab..Comps are at 95K-100
bottom line is 75K per the bank....
add in closing costs on both ends..commission on selling end possibly

You're left with KRAP for profit.

I just can't Believe how difficult it's been finding just a decent deal on a rehab..it's like these out of state banks have no idea how bad the market is around here and will only accept offers from people who are going to live there i guess.

what a friggen mess

In michigan by the way
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: REI NOOBSTER on March 20, 2007, 08:41:50 am
Hey everyone,

            Thanks for the responses. It has been great and your feedback is much appreciated.

Roger -
              I indeed have a great accountant in place and will be working with him to limit paying taxes as much as possible. As far as spending 4K a month, this is what is required in the markets that I am in in order to turn the profits that I am in. I am entertaining other sources to obtain more value. I am always looking to save all my money yet make as much as I can. You couldn't have said it better. It is a JOB. My partner and I are systemizing everyting currently to be able to do wholesaling on a much larger level. So you are dead on by stating this. I am the one fielding the calls when the leads come in. My concern about giving my position to someone is that they will not be as diligent as I am. I am very aggresive in going after the leads once they come in. You and me both know not everyone will go after your business like you. Some things can be taught to other's but either you are born with drive or your not! I hope I am wrong because I am not planning on staying on the phone for much longer. Hopefully, I can find a way to systemize this part of it. Thanks for you reply.

Ericmedem -
             Loved your post. Like I said to Roger, I am systemizing everything now. I am humbled that you have never sent out direct mail to obtain leads. I am a network king and believe highly in this. Since I am doing all these deals away from my residence it is much harder to establish a network where people bring you leads. I am assuming you work with birdogs to bring you the deal. I am working with birdogs, realtors, and other investors to obtain other deals. If you make a living primarly from others bringing you deals, that fantastic. One of my mentors, Steve Cook, does it this way. However, he has been in the biz for 10 yrs. I know that this will take some time. Like you said: Networking and direct mail leads = will bring great results. It is going to be interesting. I think I may have to get into rehabbing at some point.
             Like a doctor or anyone for that matter, if you specialize, you will be in great demand!! My main focus is on becoming excellent at wholesaling. Then I will take the money from wholesaling and "recycle" it into commercial property to have that passive income stream!! It's #1 on the list.

NJSS,
             I like your mix of income. PASSIVE INCOME IS WHERE THE WEALTH IS!! I am all for working less and making more!!

Mcintoshcopywriter,
             I like that you commented on marketing. Marketing is key. Thanks for the advice on keeping the pieces simple. My partner and I study marketing aside from RE. We are much plugged into Dan Kennedy as well as others. I think that are marketing is more successful than the competition b/c we seen the competitors flyers and understand the difference. When I receive a call from a seller, I ask them why did they call ours out of the many that they seen and the results are great. This is a wonderful source for feedback and has taught us much!! I agree less is more! Thanks.

REI Noobster,
             Don't really understand your question, can you be more specific. Are you asking geographically, market, etc?



I thought you said it cost you 4k a month for direct mailing. At 50 cents a lette that ends up 8,000 letter right? I am asking of you mail 8,000 letters a month.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Roger J on March 20, 2007, 09:17:05 am
I do still believe that you need to seriously look at where, and how, you are spending your advertising dollar to both gain more business and increased profits.

Take Noob's 8000 letters for example.  If your sending out 8000 letters, you should be getting at least 80 calls (1%).  Out of those eighty calls, you should be netting a least a 10% close rate, or 8 deals.  That's not happening.  Now, there are a number of possible problems, but generally, it boils down to two.  1, you're not targeting the right people to mail, thus wasting ad dollars, or 2, you're simply not pulling the trigger enough, or correctly enough to close the deals that are needed.  Really, only you can determine what's happening.

Also, the focus on almost exclusive direct mail marketing is flawed, IMO.  I believe that you could accomplish more, with less.  For example, take your phone duties.  You're right, no one not invested in the company will try as hard as you do to close the deal or make something work.  That's just the nature of a true business.  However, instead of just someone answering phones, you might want to consider having the call people with properties for sale and try to work a deal that way.  A wholesaler I know started out this way.  He paid a very basic income to the person plus a finder's fee/commission for any deals brought (basically telemarketing, yes).  One person would cost between $1000-$1500/month depending on hours (at $7-8/hr) plus their fees for deals (which would be including in the cost of the deal).

Raj
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 20, 2007, 09:20:25 pm
Hello Everyone,
         Hope you all are doing well.

Eman82,
         I am currently sending 4000 pieces per month. As far as advice, I wish I could tell you. For me I am costantly changing my letters/cards to see what works and what doesn't work. Evertything is test, test, and test again. Learn by doing pretty much.

spacechimp,
         I feel your pain! It is very tough. That's why I believe you have to make as many offers as you can. It's a hit an miss thing. I myself think the banks are living in another world. They are just trying to get as much as they can. Give them a bit more time. They are hurting and I believe they will hurt even more so. Just keep making offers!!

REI NOOBSTER,
         I am currently sending 4000 pieces a month. My expenses are about 4K per month but that is not all on mail. It's my total costs to run the biz.

Roger J,
          My mailings are getting about a 2-5% response rate. I know this seems high, but out of 4000 pieces I am getting about 90-130 calls and getting about 2-3 deals out of that. I would agree about hiring someone at 7-8 dollars and let them call on FSBO's, expired listings, etc. I am very much planning on implemting a few approaches such as this. My markets are very targeted. I have doing phone sales for 5 yrs and realize that it's a numbers game. Until I start to implement other ways, I will have to continue to do mailing campaigns. Nevertheless, I am going to put a plan in place to ween myself of the phone. Thanks for your input.

Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: morningnewsman on March 21, 2007, 07:14:28 am
Do you do mostly assignments of contract?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 21, 2007, 08:28:40 am
Yes, I only do assignments.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: morningnewsman on March 21, 2007, 08:39:48 am
That's great.  I'm in a higher priced market and deals have been tougher to come by, but the profit potential can be higher.  Sounds like you are doing well..great to hear that!
Do you live in the areas where you are wholesaling?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 21, 2007, 08:45:03 am
Where are you located at?

I do all my wholesaling long distance. I target 2 markets, one is 500 miles away and the other is 1500 miles away. I don't really know much about the homes in the areas other than what I have studied demographically and geographically. I never see the homes in person or even meet the seller's and buyers. I am just learning everything that I can and letting experience be my greatest teacher.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: morningnewsman on March 21, 2007, 08:56:05 am
I am in NY.  I wouldn't feel comfortable doing repair estimates long distance.  How do you do that?  Just estimate them and come in way under what they might be?
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on March 21, 2007, 09:14:36 am
I hate placing a dollar amount on rehab work (ie 5K, 10K). Whoever decided to do that, I think hurts everyone in many ways. After wholesaling for 9 months. One of the most important things to remember and what I have learned from my buyers is so:

1) what costs one buyer a kitchen, bathroom, paint and carpet 15K might cost another buyer 8k. The reason being is that some of my rehabbers do all the work themselves so they don't have to hire labor. I have one buyer that the Father, Mother, and Son do everything. So you have a 3 man crew and no one to pay. All the money stays in the family. I have another rehabber that she has to hire everyone. So her costs are a lot more. She bid 55K on a house I was selling for 67500. I didn't even get the house at that price but my family rehabber that I mentioned paid me 67500. She later inquired about the home and I told her that I sold it at that price. She told me that she couldn't pay that then later told me she regrets not buying it. So this was a classic example.

2) what some rehabbers want to do with the home other's don't. Some don't want to change the kitchen but only rebuff and paint it.


So the bottom line.............................................

Never place a dollar amount, always get pictures of the entire house, and let the pictures tell your customers what needs to be done. As far as my pricing to wholesale it, I ask myself what is the worst that the most agressive rehabber would pay? 20K? Then I go off that price. So in the end, I am offering some of the sweetest and best deals with plenty of meat left on the bone!
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: mawrain on April 02, 2007, 09:18:40 pm
Excellent point. I may be new to wholesaling but your explanation of repair values was very logical. I guess I wouldn't have thought about it like that.

Makes sense though.
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: The Investor on April 02, 2007, 09:30:47 pm
Thanks mawrain! Welcome to the biz and kick @#$!!

Make excuses or make money!!!!
Title: Re: 50K per month wholesaling............and taking it to the next level!!
Post by: Kevin Ramirez on August 25, 2016, 11:49:23 am
That's awesome, you are killing it already!
I'd start doing some google advertizing if I were you